Basses are we paying for the name or are we paying for what we get

[timbass2882]

I just looked on rondo music website, and I seen the jazz sx 5 string for 169, also a brice six string for about 500 dollars. Both was made out of solid ash bodys just like any other high end bass. The brice neck and body was one price which is good for the price alone. I know they say you get what you pay for, but looking at the wood they use is the same wood they use to make high end basses. I could be wrong, but I feel maybe if you change the electronics you would get the same bass that you would pay a $1,000 for, I also heard alot of basses being played, and I heard these basses played. Not to much of a differents, just think if you change the electronics what you would get. Sometimes I think its just a mine game. Dont get me wrong I am not talking about  any type of bass thats made out of bass wood that a different story, but I think some times we are paying a arm and a leg for some ones name on these basses, and everyone just got so wraped up in the name not the bass. If some one was to buy a cheaper bass build with the same wood as a dream bass put the same electronics in the the cheaper bass as the dream bass. I think it would not be that much of a different. Let me know what you guys are thinking!

[dhagler]

I play an SX Jazz 5 from Rondo ($150 shipped, purchased three years ago) every Sunday.  It meets my needs and my playing situation.  I am debating whether to make some modifications (bridge and tuners) or just go with a Fender MIM Jazz 5.  Or just keep playing it as is.  My other bass is a MIM Fender fretless Jazz 4 ($325 used).

Would I spend $3000 on a Ken Smith or a Callowhill or some such? Never.  I have a wife, two children, a mortgage, etc.

Would I spend $2000 on a Sadowsky or a Lakland or a Marcus Miller? Nope, same answer.

Would I spend $1000 on an American Fender or a lower end Lakland?  Maybe, but only if my playing situation changes (which would include my compensation, but that's another thread for another day).

I will let those who play higher end basses talk about their motivations and the perceived and actual differences between factory and boutique basses.  From what I have read here, those basses are well worth the money.  But worth is relative and in the eye of the beholder.

[funkStrat_97]

IMO, you pay for both.  To a certain extenet, you do pay for what you get but there are often some viable low-end basses that aren't so bad at all.  Another thing to consider, at least for some people, is the economic impact of buying a product that is not made in the USA.  There are people who will spend the extra money for a MIA Fender because of the satisifaction they get by supporting American workers.

[DWBass]

I think most basses made on CNC machines are overpriced and we're paying for the name! You can't really put a price on a well made, hand made instrument though! $3K for a Sadowsky? No way! Even though they are fine instruments but I don't think they are worth that kind of coin! I'd much rather buy parts from Warmoth or Allparts and build my own and quite literally have the same quality of bass! Personally, I think $1000-$1500 should the ceiling for any production bass!

[jeremyr]

I personally think it's a little of both.

First you have to separate USA instruments from overseas instruments.

To say that a luthier's time is only work $2.00 an hour is absurd and an outrage, so part of the price has to do with supporting your country and it's workmen.

They need to make a living just like the rest of us, so when they charge a price that lets them end up making a measely $12.00 (for the most of them) an hour we can all but complain.

Secondly you need to understand that all instruments are not in the same category and some (not all ) of the cheaper instruments have critical design flaws (I personally would go crazy if any of my instruments had a dead spot ANYWHERE on the fretboard).  So you're also paying for the R&D that goes into developing the little things that take them to the next level.  Not to mention there are guys that specialize in what us Gospel Cats are looking for.  That says ALOT!

If you can get by with a cheaper instrument, you won't see me knock you for it.  I have recently just stepped up, and after playing the CallowHill's/Ken Smiths/and USA MTDS there's no way I would ever go back to the lower level (or anything else other then a CallowHill).

Even the USA Fenders are pricey (and it's for the same reasons above). If you love playing, and you'd like to see the evolution of basses continue then I say you most definitely need to support your USA luthiers[shameless plug] I recommend CallowHill [/shameless plug]

[mjl422]

A little of both.  But, with the name, (hopefully) you're getting experience, craftsmanship, attention to detail, expertise, luthier's time...etc.   Also, you have to factor in the cost of materials (exotic woods, PUPs, Preamps, bridges, tuners).  The first $1000 - $1200 (maybe even more depending on what you order) will be the recovery cost for materials to make the bass. 

When you pay for MTD, Ken Smith, Callowhill, Brubaker...etc, there's a certain expectation that comes with the name on the bass.  Is it worth it?  Worth is a subjective thing. 

Personally, I've gotten to the point where I'll let my playing situations determine what I buy and how much I spend.  But, I would love to have a custom bass someday.

[malthumb]

There comes a point of diminishing returns.  What I mean is, you can pick up two totally different instruments and quickly determine that instrument A is waaaay better than instrument B.  The reasons bringing you to that conclusion are many and varied.  It could be the weight or the balance or the feel of the neck or the ease of set-up or the sound you hear unplugged or the sound you hear amplified or the number of tonal variations you get by playing with the controls or the........you get the point.

Now, if each one of those things means something to you, you will be willing to pay a lot more for an instrument that delivers it all than for an instrument that delivers some and ignores other elements.  Since you and I are different people and different players, what I identify as good neck feel that I would be willing to pay extra for, you could determine is not important at all.  You may not even notice that there is a difference in neck feel.

Where you get to a point of diminishing returns is (in my opinion) once you get in the $1,800 - 2,500 range, you have to EXPECT that each manufacturer has all the key elements that make a bass great NAILED.  Then you are at a point where player preference with regards to appearance, finish, hardware (black, gold, chrome plated, adjustable) is what drives the price of the bass.

For example, I have two basses that have side LED markers.  Do they add to the cost of those basses?  You bet.  Do they contribute to tone or playability?  Heck no!  So why do I have that feature?  Because I can.  Simple as that.  And the value I place on having that feature will be different than the value that Jeremyr places on it which will be different than the value that funkStrat_97 places on it, and DWBass might even reject the bass because it has the feature.

When you get into the Alembic / Sadowsky / MTD / CallowHill / Ken Smith / Fodera price ranges, you are dealing with basses that HAVE TO have all the tone quality, build quality, material quality, playability issues NAILED and the rest of the price is the cost of having it made your way, with the options and features you want on it.  You can spend a lot of money adding features to any one of those basses that have diddly to do with the sound your audience hears.  But none of those companies is hurting for business.

Now, don't get me wrong, each of those brands I mentioned produce tones that will make you fall in love with them.  Alembic, MTD, and Ken Smith in particular have their own defining tones that other basses can't seem to totally copy.  Those tones will in some cases be the reason why someone choose that particular brand, but it will not be a reason why they chose to pay more for it.  For example, the Alembic tone is not worth $3,000 more than the Fender tone, but I would pay $3,000 more for an Alembic than I would for a Fender because of what the total package brings.  I would also be perfectly happy with a $500 Made In Mexico Fender.  Each instrument is what it is.

Long post.....Lotta words.....hope it makes sense and lends something to this discussion.

Peace,

James

[Oneway]

This is what a music store owner told me, who has played guitar for 20 some years and been in the music industry for 30 some years. He said the days of a $1500.00 dollar bass are slowly coming to an end. Reason for this is that there are a lot more cheaper basses today that play and sound just like the more expensive end basses. (By cheaper I mean being made overseas). He showed me a $100.00 guitar with about $500.00 put into it with. He had put better pickups, better bridge, a different nut on top and maybe one or two other things (nothing with the body itself). He then showed me a $1400 dollar guitar that had an awsome body, beautiful finish, nice neck and it had similar quality of pickups and bridge. Now the $1400.00 dollar one did have a couple more things than the cheaper one. It had a D drop and a whammy bar. But, as far as playing and sound quality, he said they both play and sound great.
  So his point was, you generally pay for the name, the looks and finish of a guitar/bass but, as far as sound and playability it is a matter of preference. He got the same sound with the cheaper one as his expensive one by just changing pickups.
  This is my experience. I will take a Peavey Cirrus BXP 5 String i recently purchased. There is BXP and a USA model currently made. The BXP is made in Indonesia and the USA duh . . here. Anyway, I have heard both and think they both sound great. It has a tone that I like well. I payed 600.00 dollars brand new for BXP. The USA model cost (well ask JeremyR LOL) at the least double the price and higher. The USA model difference is adjustable string spacing and gold plated bridge/tuning heads/knobs. Now, Peavey claims they are the same bass just made at different locations. As far as looks, I would have to say they both look great. With the USA model you can get different finishes where as the BXP is set with just 3 finishes. So yeah the USA has more options but, not any better sound.
  The pickups are exactly the same. Both basses in my opinion sound pretty close the same. Now, I know your going to get different tones with different kinds of wood but, I am just sticking with a USA and BXP same model. They are both a great bass. I think it is more of a mind set and what you prefer to play.

Matt

[BigFoot_BigThumb]

My best friend used to work for a major guitar manufacturer and eh showed me a bass he was building for himself.  He just bought the parts wholesale with a slight hook-up as well.  The bass retailed in stores for at least $1500-$2,000 at the time.  He told me that those parts that he had(minus the electronics) cost him about $67.  That changed my whole view about buying guitars.  In this day and age it;s pure and simple capitalism. If you want something bad enough, you will pay for it no matter what the cost.  That's one reason why the econmy is in such bad shape.  People have bought what they wanted instead of what they should have.  You best believe that Fender is making plenty of money off of all these copies via licensing for the parts and shapes.  Plus some of the major companies are charging you for "American" guitars that were made overseas.  The parts were made overseas, then shipped to America for assembly.  Bam, it's "American Made" and the price reflects this.  Some people are so caught up in patriotism now that they will spend more to support the "home team." 

They even do this in the car game.  The Cadillac Escalade is a Chevy Tahoe with a different front and rear fascia and lights.  Same with the Lincoln Navigatorand Ford Expedition.  Remember when Jaguar came out with the X-Type?  It wasn't anything but a fFord Contour with dioffernt body panel and interior pieces.  It costs at least $12,000-$15,000 more.  That's the name of the game.  People will pay more for an Escalade because they want an Escalade.

As far as the Boutique brands, they have more overhead because of materials, and the level of labor.  Also, they have to make up for the lower sales numbers because of their turnaround on product.  Plus some of their woods are much more rare compared to the big boys.  Same thing goes with them tooin the end though.  If you want it, you'll buy it no matter what the cost.     

[bigneil]

Here's my thing with this. You pay for what you want. If you want a $3k+ instrument, you'll buy it. If you don't then you won't. The reason I say that is because people have there own preferences and they just like what they like. I just purchased a car for my wife. It's the Infinity QX56. While it is the same vehicle as the Nissan Armada it sells for a lot more. But that's what she wanted. By the time i would have made the upgrades to make the armada what she wanted in the QX i could have just bought the QX which is what I did. Some things come standard in certain brands and some you have to upgrade to get to that point. So why buy cheaper and have to upgrade when what you want costs a little more? Save your money and get what you want.

[bassksun]

Fender, Peavey, Warwick, Yamaha, ESP/LTD, Gibson, Dean etc...

Subtract:
1) Advertising
2) U.S. Wages or Asian, Czech, Mexican wages
3) What the market will bear for "Name Recognition"

Materials for the Big guys are CHEAP!

So a Mexican Fender sells for 300-400. It cost Fender about $20 to make. A 1300 bass cost them about $21 to make. Why? Because the market will bear 1300. The upgrade doesn't hurt them. Same bass as the 300 onejust a few "upgrades".

MM, MTD, (Warwick used to fit in here) etc.
Cost a little more to make because they still have a little hand craft. But still CNC and production parts.

It might cost them 50 to make.

So if you have only got 300-1200 to play with...shop around. Play as many basses as you can within your price range. Don't discount getting used either.

[malthumb]

....
They even do this in the car game.  The Cadillac Escalade is a Chevy Tahoe with a different front and rear fascia and lights.  Same with the Lincoln Navigatorand Ford Expedition.  Remember when Jaguar came out with the X-Type?  It wasn't anything but a fFord Contour with dioffernt body panel and interior pieces.  It costs at least $12,000-$15,000 more.  That's the name of the game.  People will pay more for an Escalade because they want an Escalade.
...

I CLEARLY understand your point, but you could not have picked a worse example.  Spend a week with a Tahoe and a week with an Escalade and you'll understand.  There is functional content in an Escalade that is simply not available in the Tahoe.  The engines are different.  The AWD systems are different.  The interior trim and seating materials are different.  I could go on and on.  They ARE built on the same chassis, so a lot of the the things you don't see are the same, but they really are different animals.

I have spent almost 30 years at GM, the past 15 in Product Planning.  I know of what I speak on this particular subject.  As I've said, I CLEARLY understand what you mean.  I just have to throw the flag on this example.

Peace,

James

[MrSteve]

Value is in the eye of the beholder. Some see the $3000 price tag as a symbol of vanity and irresponsible marketing. Others see it at as a symbol of quality and prestige. The real truth is somewhere in between. You definitely get better materials and finish with a more expensive bass, but you're also buying into the inflated perception of value that both big companies and solo luthiers force onto the market.

Personally, I couldn't justify spending that much on a bass when I can get good sound and good playability out of a $300 bass. I also have kids and a mortgage (and other hobbies besides music), and it just doesn't seem to make that much difference to me. If I were a much better player, or were making lots of money playing, then I might be willing to invest in a more expensive bass, but my MIM PJ and Ibanez 505 suit my circumstances just fine. Again, for other players, an expensive bass is worth what they have to pay for it.

The issue of supporting American workers is definitely a point to consider but the instrument manufacturers are partly to blame for this situation. The markup on American basses, particularly the assembly line models, is pretty outrageous and, in the attempt to provide models at all price levels, the manufacturers create foreign models at a budget price and then market them as student or beginner models for those who can't afford the "real" version. I'm all for supporting American industry but the businesses have as much blame as the consumers here. While we're on the subject of paying more to buy American, are you also willing to pay more to support local music retailers rather than getting the big discounts from musiciansfriend.com or Guitar Center?

[under13]

I CLEARLY understand your point, but you could not have picked a worse example.  Spend a week with a Tahoe and a week with an Escalade and you'll understand.  There is functional content in an Escalade that is simply not available in the Tahoe.  The engines are different.  The AWD systems are different.  The interior trim and seating materials are different.  I could go on and on.  They ARE built on the same chassis, so a lot of the the things you don't see are the same, but they really are different animals.

I have spent almost 30 years at GM, the past 15 in Product Planning.  I know of what I speak on this particular subject.  As I've said, I CLEARLY understand what you mean.  I just have to throw the flag on this example.

Peace,

James

Do they make more profit off of an escalade, than a tahoe?

[dhagler]

Many good points, especially those dealing with marketing, capitalism, and the support of the American economy.  The same arguments could be applied to just about any consumer product that is available either from a manufacturer or an individual craftsman.

If I could afford, say, a $3000 bass, and if my ear became good enough to distinguish tonal differences due to wood, electronics, hardware, etc., then I might look into a boutique bass.  But I am nowhere near either of those conditions (especially the latter), and 75 percent of us (if we readily admitted it) aren't either.

Buy and play what you can afford.  Buy and play what makes you happy.  Life is too short and they don't make hearses with luggage racks.

[malthumb]

Do they make more profit off of an escalade, than a tahoe?

Hard to say.  There is more REVENUE on an Escalade, but there is also more COST in content.

Actually, BFBT's example of Tahoe and Escalade is relevant from a different point of view.  If you look at an MTD Z5 as a Tahoe and an MTD 535 as an Escalade.  Both the Tahoe and the Z5 will get the job done in very fine fashion,  The 535 and the Escalade do the same basic job as the Z5 and the Tahoe, but they use finer materials and more feature content that although pleasing to the customer, do not impact the ability to get the job done.

Peace,

James

[jeremyr]

While we're on the subject of paying more to buy American, are you also willing to pay more to support local music retailers rather than getting the big discounts from musiciansfriend.com or Guitar Center?

if there were any local to me then yes

[ptidwell]

Interesting views.




reserving my opinion for now.

[CallowHill]

Interesting views.




reserving my opinion for now.

Yeah man.  This is always a fun one.  There have been several points made on all sides which are very valid, I'm interested to see where this one goes...

[jeremyr]

Yeah man.  This is always a fun one.  There have been several points made on all sides which are very valid, I'm interested to see where this one goes...

[STRIKING SLAVE WHIP IN THE AIR FURIOUSLY]  BACK TO WORK!!!! [/trIKING SLAVE WHIP IN THE AIR FURIUOSLY]...LOLOL

Just messing with you tim.

I would however, Like for you to express your viewpoint on the subject seeing as you're a builder