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Author Topic: Is one necessarily better than the other?  (Read 4594 times)

bassboyblue

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 06:08:05 PM »
Theory is from the head!music is from the heart!i learned theory at a early age when i played in the school brass band,first cornet,then tuba,and of course the musical knowledge has stayed with me,BUT it's my belief that if you think too much about it when your playing it can hinder what your trying to do,i don't play in a regular band,my gigs are all deps,mainly reading,and i have to do what they expect from me,after all thet are paying me!!but i also play in a jazz fusion band and enjoy the freedom,some players have the uncanny ability to pick up things so fast,a typical example is Pino Palladino,he doesn't read a note of music,but has a head like a computer,SO,it's the person,and the way that person approaches his playing in any situation,there's my two pence worth on this thread. :)

Offline BimmerFan99

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 06:22:37 PM »
Knowing music theory is like being book smart in school.  You can have a 4.0 GPA but have absolutely no practical experience on how to apply it.  You can know all your scales, modes, chords, changes, subs, etc. but not know how to play it.

It's the same with the Bible.  Some people know their Bible backward and forward but don't know very well how to apply the teachings of Christ.  Some know the Bible just a little and know how to apply the teachings very well.  Some know both.

In the end, it matters whether or not your music is effective.  Knowing your theory is definitely a plus in doing that.  If you spend a lot of time learning your theory, you best spend just as much time knowing how to apply it.

Offline dremy2006

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 06:55:07 PM »
DID KING DAVID KNOW THEORY..??? What about tha Anointing!!..I'll take tha Anointing any day ova theory....yoke breaker..fok being healed...theory can't do that.....playing from tha heart like many of the men and women of God said... thats what its all about... and tha greatest of these three is love... just thought I'll say that  ?/?   :)...


                                                                                          P.S. THANK GOD FOR THA BASS FOR DUMMIES BOOK  ;)
Allowing the Creator To use His Creation To Create for you.....

Offline Fingers!

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 07:08:26 PM »
I think that it's all about how one apply themselves with their time.  To me, technically speaking, the theory guy SHOULD be in a better position at the start, even if he can't apply it at the moment.   

I look at music theory like it's a big room.  The more one learn theoretically, the bigger the room gets.  Now that person might not know how to use all the tools in that big area but if he/she apply their time most effectively and wisely, there's vast expansion, room for growth.  And one day everything in the room would be within their reach. 

The guy who doesn't know theory will know it eventually thru trial and error.  The book may point something out, like a nice progression style, to the theory guy.  So he might already have an inclination to look for it right away, like right now.  Whereas, the trial-and-error guy might run into it in about eight months from now. 

Basically I see it like this:

1)  I can point it out to you, save you all the headbanging headaches. And get you on track immediately, let you experiment with it later.  (Theory)

2)  I can just leave you alone and let you just happen upon things and figure it out by yourself.  (Trial-and-error)

To me, both of these guys can find themselves at the same conclusion, one will just get there quicker.

Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 07:18:24 PM »
Well we have to be careful how we discredit things.  Trust despite how some of my responses may come across, I advise anyone in music to learn theory.  Just dont make it the end all, priority #1.  I truly wish I took the theory I had learned in college more seriously.  Unfortunately I was caught up in that concept that alot of ear/natural skill players believed which was that theory somehow "taints" your gift or anointing.  Part of that is because it sounds much better and gets more wows to be a hot musician and be like "I dont know how to read/theory/etc" than for you to say you know how to do all that (yall know how 'we' like to do).  Being one of the older bassists here, Im glad to see alot more gospel bass players wanting to further their education technically.  Theory will allow you to express yourself in more ways than just sitting and falling up on something.  Im blessed with sharp ears, but that combined with theory has allowed me to do a gig not knowing the music or having any.  I think that gospel bass players have an edge up on most, because it encompasses the most groove oriented of styles, unlike alot of other genres.  Thats why a gospel player that can read and has theoretical knowledge is a dangerous person lol.  A good read is Victor Wooten's book "The Music Lesson".   Great book on overall musicianship.  esp. bass.
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Offline sonofaking

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2008, 07:22:49 PM »
I'm new to this group and this was the first message that came up.  I hope you all don't mind if I throw in my 2 cents.  This questions speaks to something more basic...is the educated better of than the uneducated.  The answer is it depends...not on knowledge but on quality of life.  The best example for me was when I bought a house in PA, I spoke with a landscaper to do my lawn.  He said, "its funny, I barely graduated high school, but you're going to pay me half of your annual salary for about two weeks worth of work."  He is less educated than I, but make far more money.  The reverse of that is obviously the PhD who graduates from Harvard with a starting salary of around $100K...before he/she has proven any skills at all, but just because he/she is educated doors are open.
Knowledge gained easily is easily forgotten, but knowledge gained through struggle increases wisdom.

Offline Fingers!

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2008, 07:35:13 PM »
Well we have to be careful how we discredit things.   Trust despite how some of my responses may come across, I advise anyone in music to learn theory.  Just dont make it the end all, priority #1.  I truly wish I took the theory I had learned in college more seriously.  Unfortunately I was caught up in that concept that alot of ear/natural skill players believed which was that theory somehow "taints" your gift or anointing.  Part of that is because it sounds much better and gets more wows to be a hot musician and be like "I dont know how to read/theory/etc" than for you to say you know how to do all that (yall know how 'we' like to do).  Being one of the older bassists here, Im glad to see alot more gospel bass players wanting to further their education technically.  Theory will allow you to express yourself in more ways than just sitting and falling up on something.  Im blessed with sharp ears, but that combined with theory has allowed me to do a gig not knowing the music or having any.  I think that gospel bass players have an edge up on most, because it encompasses the most groove oriented of styles, unlike alot of other genres.  Thats why a gospel player that can read and has theoretical knowledge is a dangerous person lol.  A good read is Victor Wooten's book "The Music Lesson".   Great book on overall musicianship.  esp. bass.

Hey. you got that right!  I can go the other way, as well.  The trial-and-error guy will eventually get there like johnny-come-lately, but when he show up his playing can and should be very hardcore and super-slick because of all that shedding and comparing notes to find out what notes were right vs wrong, instead of "because someone told me."  He/She could say. "I know for a FACT that these notes don't work right here..."

Like I said, to me, they both should be at the same point later on down the street.

Offline Torch7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2008, 07:56:26 PM »
Yes, i guess it is... thanks for pointing that out. Apologies to the offended ones!!

Once again you are correct. Apologies to the offended ones again!!!

No worries, I took no offense.

Offline Torch7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2008, 08:02:21 PM »
I would not agree with the second statement because like I said, it takes a shorter time for the one person to learn theory than the other to learn skill, style, etc.  To have both would be the ideal goal of course.   

Which was the point I was trying to make.    To sum up my point of view, Theory without Application is useless.

When I say the later opens up many more posibilities, I simply meant, that a person grooving over a pentatonic scale gets 5 notes, when I get a greater understanding more notes become available, for me to create with.

Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 08:12:27 PM »
Well fingers that depends.  There are many factors missing.  For example, lets say you have two measures of changes: /Ab7 Db7/Bb7 Eb7/.  The theory person can easily analyze this and break all the chords down, knowing all the possibilities.  But the music is latin salsa.  Now the untrained person might have figured just the roots of the chords and the fifths, but he knows the style.  Nothing in theory tells you that the bass (and the changes) follows the clave, so the theorist, though way down the street, is still behind. 
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Offline Torch7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2008, 08:23:38 PM »
Also remember that THEORY is ONLY a tool, to assist musicians.

I am persuaded, like mentioned in one of our videos, we learn theory, to not have to think about it.  Much like you learn a language, and it becomes second nature, so that you don't conciously think about your words most of the time.

The tone of these type posts generally move into to camps with not much wiggle room... Less filling.  Taste great. 

All who say that Musicians who know theory, and can't groove are right, that person are not complete musicians. 

I also appreciate all the analogies given, but realize that there are still two sides to the coin.  We see all the time atheletes who are extremely talented, but can't make it on the next level, because they can't get the mental aspect of the game.  Pure talent only goes so far.  But great analogy, "Twest45"

Dremy, no-one can truly say if David knew studied music or not... all we know is that he was skillful according to the scriptures, and that his reputation as a musician proceeded him.  We do however find later in the scriptures another musician, who taught the singers/musicians in the temple.  Cheneniah. 


Offline Torch7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2008, 08:26:22 PM »
Well fingers that depends.  There are many factors missing.  For example, lets say you have two measures of changes: /Ab7 Db7/Bb7 Eb7/.  The theory person can easily analyze this and break all the chords down, knowing all the possibilities.  But the music is latin salsa.  Now the untrained person might have figured just the roots of the chords and the fifths, but he knows the style.  Nothing in theory tells you that the bass (and the changes) follows the clave, so the theorist, though way down the street, is still behind. 

Don't leave out time signatures and standard notation.  In the same scenario, a person who knows theory could possibly show up at a session without hearing a single note and have a great idea of how the song should go.

Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2008, 09:00:36 PM »
Don't leave out time signatures and standard notation.  In the same scenario, a person who knows theory could possibly show up at a session without hearing a single note and have a great idea of how the song should go.

Well in the scenario, there is no notation, just changes.  If he shows up and doesnt know the style and feel, you can hang it up.  Even if you told him it was common time, that still doesnt tell you the emplied things that go along with salsa.   
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Offline Torch7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2008, 09:06:59 PM »
Well in the scenario, there is no notation, just changes.  If he shows up and doesnt know the style and feel, you can hang it up.  Even if you told him it was common time, that still doesnt tell you the emplied things that go along with salsa.   


We still go to isolated scenarios to build our case.  A person who doesn't know theory, and can groove at church, could possibly be in the same predicument if they showed up and were not familiar with the salsa style.

In my limited experience everyone that I know who knows theory, are extremely talented musicians, and can play any style.  Can break it down, explain it, play in any situation with greater than average proficiency.  And the guys who I know who can play and don't utilize theory don't even compare.  I know this is my limited experience but it makes me  lean much more towards learning theory.

Offline Fingers!

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2008, 09:39:57 PM »
Well fingers that depends.  There are many factors missing.  For example, lets say you have two measures of changes: /Ab7 Db7/Bb7 Eb7/.  The theory person can easily analyze this and break all the chords down, knowing all the possibilities.  But the music is latin salsa.  Now the untrained person might have figured just the roots of the chords and the fifths, but he knows the style.  Nothing in theory tells you that the bass (and the changes) follows the clave, so the theorist, though way down the street, is still behind. 

That's true.  One thing I didn't mention was that, in my mind, the two players that I'm comparing to one another aren't living in a bubble. 

In my hypothetical world, they both are out there getting exposure.  The 'theory' guy might need some shedding to pick up on that salsa thing.  That trial-and-error guy might not know much about that particular progression but being around those other 'theory' guys might help him get it.  I'm not being extreme on this, contrasting black to white.  To me, extremity isn't always reality.  That's why I have both players meeting up at the same point in the end - if they use their time wisely...

Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2008, 10:16:49 PM »
We still go to isolated scenarios to build our case.  A person who doesn't know theory, and can groove at church, could possibly be in the same predicument if they showed up and were not familiar with the salsa style.

Well I put that because Ive been in that scenario more than once.   ;D

Quote

That's true.  One thing I didn't mention was that, in my mind, the two players that I'm comparing to one another aren't living in a bubble.

In my hypothetical world, they both are out there getting exposure.  The 'theory' guy might need some shedding to pick up on that salsa thing.  That trial-and-error guy might not know much about that particular progression but being around those other 'theory' guys might help him get it.  I'm not being extreme on this, contrasting black to white.  To me, extremity isn't always reality.  That's why I have both players meeting up at the same point in the end - if they use their time wisely...

See this validates what I said originally in answering the original question.  But even in what you just said, you could easily teach that second guy in 10 minutes what those 4 chords are.  But Salsa? Good luck.   :D

Check it.  One of my best friends is a female piano player from the Czech Republic.  I mean this chick sightreads Mozart and Beethoven for breakfast.  Do you know how long it took me to teach her how to play funk style?  FUNK!  Almost half a yr LOL.  Im talking Superstitious like 3 hrs a day almost. 

I know we are getting of on a tangent, but the original question is which is the BETTER POSITION to be in?  Meaning though you are lacking, which would you rather be lacking in.  I would rather be lacking in the area that doesnt take as long to internalize.  Theory is constant.  It NEVER changes.  A supertonic today will be a supertonic 50 yrs from now.  Regardless of country, reggae, gospel, calypso, jazz a ii-V-I is the same.  However depending on the style, the knowledge in how you play it and make it sound good greatly varies and depends on alot more factors.   
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Offline Fingers!

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2008, 10:27:50 PM »
Well I put that because Ive been in that scenario more than once.   ;D

See this validates what I said originally in answering the original question.  But even in what you just said, you could easily teach that second guy in 10 minutes what those 4 chords are.  But Salsa? Good luck.   :D

Check it.  One of my best friends is a female piano player from the Czech Republic.  I mean this chick sightreads Mozart and Beethoven for breakfast.  Do you know how long it took me to teach her how to play funk style?  FUNK!  Almost half a yr LOL.  Im talking Superstitious like 3 hrs a day almost. 

I know we are getting of on a tangent, but the original question is which is the BETTER POSITION to be in?  Meaning though you are lacking, which would you rather be lacking in.  I would rather be lacking in the area that doesnt take as long to internalize.  Theory is constant.  It NEVER changes.  A supertonic today will be a supertonic 50 yrs from now.  Regardless of country, reggae, gospel, calypso, jazz a ii-V-I is the same.  However depending on the style, the knowledge in how you play it and make it sound good greatly varies and depends on alot more factors.   

I gotcha. 

Offline Torch7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2008, 09:47:23 AM »
Well I put that because I've been in that scenario more than once.   ;D

Ahem... me too. The scary part comes when we try and pull of a particular style at Church, and the drummer has one interpretation of how it should go, the keyboardist another, and me yet another... talk about butchering a song.

Offline floaded27

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2008, 10:13:33 AM »
Well fingers that depends.  There are many factors missing.  For example, lets say you have two measures of changes: /Ab7 Db7/Bb7 Eb7/.  The theory person can easily analyze this and break all the chords down, knowing all the possibilities.  But the music is latin salsa.  Now the untrained person might have figured just the roots of the chords and the fifths, but he knows the style.  Nothing in theory tells you that the bass (and the changes) follows the clave, so the theorist, though way down the street, is still behind. 

bassbygrace, this is what im trying to explain (to you, and many). You say that the bass follows the clave for "latin salsa". You just explained the concept of bass in latin salsa. That IS theory. Just because its NOT in some book in Barnes & Noble doesnt mean its not theory. This is what im saying. Theory goes beyond that. If i know what makes up latin salsa (theory), i'll be able to play those changes. If he knows the style, (not "ive played so many latin salsa songs cause i got the records at home and i'll just play like one of those songs" or "i know how to play this cause it sounds like ________, which is a song i know") then he knows the concept of latin salsa, and thus he knows theory (whether he recognizes that or not doesnt matter)

as for me, im a "theory guy" by nature. i like to know how things work, why they work, etc. That does NOT take away my ability to groove, experiment, shed or whatever. And that does not mean that a "theory guy" doesnt play with his heart, and that ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean that the "theory guy" cant be annointed. Theory does not have to stifle creativity. Some people just let it do so.

I like the analogy that Fingers gave thats likens to a tool shed. I may take the time to learn about every tool and how it works and what its for. So when i need to screw in a screw my idea may be to use a screwdriver which is the obvious tool, but because i know how it works i can also fashion something else, whose use was never intended for that, to work in a similar way. (how many of us have screwed or unscrewed something with a butter knife?) Thats how theory works for me, and i dont have to pick up the hammer to see that it doesnt work, then get a saw and see that that doesnt work, etc.
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Offline jeremyr

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2008, 10:18:51 AM »
That IS theory. Just because its NOT in some book in Barnes & Noble doesnt mean its not theory. This is what im saying. Theory goes beyond that.

I agree.  With the notes comes the timing of the type of music you're playing too.
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