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Author Topic: Is one necessarily better than the other?  (Read 4671 times)

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2008, 10:47:48 AM »
To add to what I stated before and to answer the original question another way, this is really a situational thing. But like floaded27 stated, theory goes beyond books. Victor wooten stated that music is a language. We all here know the English language, but we all develop little slangs that deviate from the English Language. Music is the same way. There's written theory and spoken theory.
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Offline Torch7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2008, 11:26:06 AM »
From Wikipedia:

In a more general sense, music theory also often distills and analyzes the elements of music ? rhythm, harmony (harmonic function), melody, structure, form, and texture.

Broadly, theory may include any statement, belief, or conception of or about music

Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2008, 11:53:53 AM »
Ahem... me too. The scary part comes when we try and pull of a particular style at Church, and the drummer has one interpretation of how it should go, the keyboardist another, and me yet another... talk about butchering a song.

Bruh you have no idea.  I was on a jazz gig once and the drummer couldnt make it.  A friend called a friend that called a friend.  They told us this cat was like DCI drum capt in the past, chops for days, etc.  He shows up, and listening to him warm up, Im like WORD!  How bout....he couldnt play jazz.  :(  Im talkin so straight I thought he had starch on his sticks.  Worst 3 hours ever with great musicians. 

Check it out floaded.  Watch this. 
Quote
as for me, im a "theory guy" by nature. i like to know how things work, why they work, etc. That does NOT take away my ability to groove, experiment, shed or whatever

So you agree that theory and groove have nothing to do with each other.  :)  Thats what IM trying to explain to you (and others) and you just said it.  Because on the same token, it does not ADD to your ability to groove.  I love it.  :)  You can explain theory.  You cant explain groove.  Thats why in that example just because he knows what makes up latin salsa and recognizes the changes, doesnt mean he knows how to PLAY them.  Just like in my earlier example, he knew jazz consisted of a dotted eighth sixteenth note structure, 4/4 time, he knew he was supposed to use the ride cymbal and all that.  But his feel, groove and lock were nonexistent.  No swing what so ever.  Now would you say he was successful in playing jazz?

I wish I could bring yall to work with me LOLOL.  I might just try to set up my camera somewhere around here so I can get it on tape.






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Offline floaded27

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2008, 01:39:37 PM »
BBG i totally understand you. But just as theory doesnt ADD to your ability to groove, neither does having a good ear or good technique or great chops. They all HELP you in that area but none automatically add to your ability to do so. And none automatically diminish that either. You have to know how to use each one to help you, theory included.

one example. you ever had a basketball coach that knew everything about the sport and how to play, good technique, strategies, everything but couldnt play himself? Thats the guy thats all theory. Now do you think if he was able to play (maybe he could practice or something) that all this knowledge and understanding now becomes useless? Apparently it doesnt, because he's using it to help the people he's coaching become better players. So the knowledge does make you a better player overall IF, AND ONLY IF, you know how to apply it and do so. Learning how to position yourself on defense may not make you a better dribbler (a better defender, yes), squaring your shoulders on a free throw may not make you a better rebounder (a better free throw shooter, yes) and ect. Each piece of knowledge helps specific areas but the knowledge itself (theory) should make you a better player OVERALL if you know how to apply it and do so.

The question is why are people later on scrambling to understand the music (which is the basis of theory - UNDERSTANDING)? Because talent only takes you but so far. You cant refine yourself without understanding what, why, and how you need to refine.

But as i stated in my original post, i believe it depends on what you aim to do. Havin groove for days may be suitable if all you wanna do is be a gig musician. But if you want to create your own music, be a music director, etc groovin alone isnt gonna get you there. You need some theory under your belt, whether its "book theory" or "applied theory" its theory nonetheless.

For me, i get tired of only just groovin to other people stuff. Because, no knocks to whoever is, im not just a bass player, Im a minister of God through music. We all here at LGM should be, actually. Just like being able to live right isnt gonna cut it all the time. You need to know your Word. So i want to be able to minister to the people's needs through music, not wait for the next gospel album to come out in the stores to do it for me so i can just groove to it. So in order to do that, i need to immerse myself in not only ability, but understanding. and just realizing that and saying that, i realize this question was a moot point, because for me i know where i need to be so it doesnt even matter.
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Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2008, 03:57:34 PM »
floaded...floaded...floaded.  Im going to send you a nasty PM.   :D  Your post is just a mirror of what Ive been saying the last two pages bruh.  Ive been saying they are different elements all along.  Some how ppl get the notion that once you learn theory, youre the bomb.  But as stated, if you dont have the other elements, that means absolutely nothing.  However,

Quote
But as i stated in my original post, i believe it depends on what you aim to do. Havin groove for days may be suitable if all you wanna do is be a gig musician. But if you want to create your own music, be a music director, etc groovin alone isnt gonna get you there. You need some theory under your belt, whether its "book theory" or "applied theory" its theory nonetheless.


Well floaded I will say its hard to debate your point because of the different takes on what "Some" theory is.  Some ppl think knowing where a Bb is on your bass is theory.  Some ppl think unless you know modes and scales degrees, you dont.  Did you know that George Benson cant read notes and for the longest time couldnt read changes?  GEORGE BENSON!  He just some of the sickest ears in the business.  Dont believe me go watch Marcus Miller's clinic on BP TV. Anyway, youre kind of isolating it into a groove vs theory thing now.  Dont forget your first paragraph about other things.  I will say this.  Theory needs music to exist.  Music doesnt need theory to exist. 

Im not just trying to argue to argue, or really play devil's advocate so to speak.  As stated Im a true advocate of theory.  The issue is ppl are forgetting the original reason for this thread.  Its not to debate what is theory, or theory in comparison, it is which position would you rather be in.

I would rather be lacking in the area that doesnt take as long to internalize.  Theory is constant.  It NEVER changes.  A supertonic today will be a supertonic 50 yrs from now.  Regardless of country, reggae, gospel, calypso, jazz a ii-V-I is the same.  However depending on the style, the knowledge in how you play it and make it sound good greatly varies and depends on alot more factors.   

Anyone that disagrees with this, I would like to see your argument. 

 
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Offline Torch7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2008, 04:38:28 PM »
Anyone that disagrees with this, I would like to see your argument. 

I'm rubber and you are glue, whatever you say... bounces off me and sticks to you....  :P

...And that my friend is the most powerful argument in the Universe.  LOL!

Offline Sinfonian7

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2008, 04:44:56 PM »
So which is the better position to be in? One who has better skill on the bass (including technique, style, fills, chords, etc) but limited theory knowledge, or one who has a more extensive musical knowledge but not as skilled?

Just to revisit the question at hand...I personallly would like to be the person with more extensive musical knowlege.  I figure as long as I know where the song is going and how to get there,  I can effectively hold down a song. 

Of course it would depend on the situation and either person could fly or flop depending on what setting they are placed in.  Thats just what I think though.
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Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2008, 06:26:28 PM »
I'm rubber and you are glue, whatever you say... bounces off me and sticks to you....  :P

...And that my friend is the most powerful argument in the Universe.  LOL!

Well that depends on what vocabulary is being utili...LOLOL! j/k  :D  I actually had to go back and read the question again, and now I see that its already lopsided.  I was thinking they were equal on contrasting sides of the tracks, but the first person is more specific, and the second is vague.   

This has prompted me to start a survey too.  Currently Im at the Military School of Music at a staff sgt course so I got plenty of guinea pigs lol.  So far Ive asked about 6 ppl and its tied right now at 3-3.  I will record some of their comments and post them.  Ive also made the question a little more equal too.   
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Offline Godsbassman62

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2008, 08:45:29 PM »
Wow this is a hot one. Hey BassbyGrace, Are you at Little Creek, VA? One of my sax student graduated from there two years ago. It is about utilzing the tools you have and knowing where to use them. If you don't have the tools, you do limit yourself. Or even worst, having the tools and not knowing what to do with them. Theory is nothing without Practicum. what is the use in knowing a diminshed scale and not knowing where to play it or having a song in you head and not knowing how to put it paper. I personally spent years studying theory because I never understood what I was doing. I could always solo over changes because I listened to soloist. But when I started playing bass everything clicked. All this to say you should arm yourself so you hold the groove in a spiritual and intelligent manner.

Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2008, 09:44:10 PM »
Yeah man thats where Im posted up for the moment.  Beach is nice though but I miss my little one.
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Offline Godsbassman62

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Re: Is one necessarily better than the other?
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2008, 10:24:09 PM »
LOL  :) I am grad from Little Creek in 1986. I did 2 more yrs after that and went home to Chicago and started on my masters in music. They need more schools like that one where you get alot of book and practical experience. Out here in L.A. they have a few. Stay blessed and enjoy the beach.
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