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Author Topic: The number system "limits you?????"  (Read 5681 times)

Offline T-Block

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2013, 11:47:25 PM »
This topic has been really interesting so far. I understand both sides of the argument, and believe it or not, organman88 and others have hit on some very valid points.

I think the problem/divide comes in with how each person interprets and uses the number system. Using it based off its original intent or based off something you've created makes all the difference in the world; especially when there are others trying to learn from you.

The original intent of using the number system takes into account that you are following the basic "rules" of theory, using the chords built off the scale degrees. If the chord is major in the scale, then it's going to keep it's major base. Plus, the root will be whatever scale degree you're on. For example, using the number 1 (I) implies that the chord is major and that the 1 is in the bass. Even if the chord is a major 7, major 9, dom7, dom13th, etc. the base of the chord is still major. Using the number 1 (i) implies that the chord is minor and that the 1 is in the bass. Even if the chord is a minor 7, minor 9, min 11th, etc. the base of the chord is still minor. etc....

My approach to the number system is a little different and "bends" those rules a little, lol. I see the numbers purely as bass notes, then I leave room for the musician to decide what chord to put there. Also, I use the major scale as my reference for the bass notes. So, if the song is in a minor key, I think about the music using the relative major key. All my minor 1's I see as 6's. This approach takes into account that you've done the work already at having options for each bass note. In this case, you're not "limited" to only using the scale degree chords, you can pull chords from other places, but still fit the song and stay in key.

See what I mean? Same number system, different approach, different results with each approach. Other musicians may also have their own ways of interpreting and using the number system, this is my way. It's not the only way, but it is a way to look at it.

In the end, whatever approach helps you get better as a musician is fine. Not everyone will agree or understand, but if it works for you, keep using it. Just don't automatically disregard another musician's approach as wrong based solely on your knowledge as being the "end all, be all" of music. I've fallen into that way of thinking b4 and am working to not fall in it ever again.

God bless!!!
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline organman88

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2013, 08:56:37 AM »
I came from a different background in music I wasn't always in a gospel/church setting started off with RnB, then classical, jazz then gospel so I've learned different processes to learning....the number system does benefit in a church setting though! I use the number system to communicate with musicians backing up the preacher, if we didn't rehearse and learning songs when I don't have time to really dissect it and learn the parts. Through the years I've developed my ear to not rely only on the number system I know what all 12 keys sound like in relationship to the tonic and what each chord sounds like.....I just personally feel that the number system exclusively keeps bands from really rehearsing and learning songs as a unit one chord at the same time and it becomes a free for all! I grew up with mentors that got on me if the songs chord is C major7 and you play C major 9 its wrong....it may sound good but it's not what the song says. That's where the limitation comes in, if you continue to play things your way adding your own chords you will be playing everything the same way.
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Offline organman88

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2013, 08:59:00 AM »
Also check out earmaster.com this program really helped develop my ear! I know it's a little off topic but I just like to help out!
keyz 4 life

Offline dereknae

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2013, 08:54:22 AM »
I play with a very good band..We've been playing together for over 12 yrs.The only time we use the number system is during preaching. .That's it!!!!!!We all know eachother well and we always practice together so other than preaching we don't need it..The number system is a tool..It's good for some and rarely used for others..I don't see what the big deal is..If you like it,you like it and if you don't,you don't..There's no right or wrong...Someone saids it limits you and from my view and situation,it does cuz me and my band work it out in practice..But,I also understand those that do..We all are on different levels so use what works for you.. ;D ;D

Offline organman88

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2013, 01:15:14 PM »
This is ultimately what I was trying to see. Well put! We use it in the same manner!
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Offline raegenius

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2013, 11:30:10 PM »
Interesting spin on things.  The number system got me to where I am as a musician.  I had never seen it as a limiting factor however I understand the points being raised, the most salient for me being that I may not be sure if it's a major9 or a 13th chord that I should play on a 1 chord for example. However that is usually determined by the type of song, where we are in the song and where we are going subsequently as it is a progression.  Nevertheless points taken, I will still use the number system but avoid it's limitations.  Thanks for bringing these thoughts to my attention.
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Offline T-Block

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2013, 12:19:02 PM »
We all are on different levels so use what works for you.. ;D ;D

BINGO!!!
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline Ladyn

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2013, 07:57:13 AM »
This topic has been really interesting so far. I understand both sides of the argument, and believe it or not, organman88 and others have hit on some very valid points.

I think the problem/divide comes in with how each person interprets and uses the number system. Using it based off its original intent or based off something you've created makes all the difference in the world; especially when there are others trying to learn from you.

The original intent of using the number system takes into account that you are following the basic "rules" of theory, using the chords built off the scale degrees. If the chord is major in the scale, then it's going to keep it's major base. Plus, the root will be whatever scale degree you're on. For example, using the number 1 (I) implies that the chord is major and that the 1 is in the bass. Even if the chord is a major 7, major 9, dom7, dom13th, etc. the base of the chord is still major. Using the number 1 (i) implies that the chord is minor and that the 1 is in the bass. Even if the chord is a minor 7, minor 9, min 11th, etc. the base of the chord is still minor. etc....

My approach to the number system is a little different and "bends" those rules a little, lol. I see the numbers purely as bass notes, then I leave room for the musician to decide what chord to put there. Also, I use the major scale as my reference for the bass notes. So, if the song is in a minor key, I think about the music using the relative major key. All my minor 1's I see as 6's. This approach takes into account that you've done the work already at having options for each bass note. In this case, you're not "limited" to only using the scale degree chords, you can pull chords from other places, but still fit the song and stay in key.

See what I mean? Same number system, different approach, different results with each approach. Other musicians may also have their own ways of interpreting and using the number system, this is my way. It's not the only way, but it is a way to look at it.

In the end, whatever approach helps you get better as a musician is fine. Not everyone will agree or understand, but if it works for you, keep using it. Just don't automatically disregard another musician's approach as wrong based solely on your knowledge as being the "end all, be all" of music. I've fallen into that way of thinking b4 and am working to not fall in it ever again.

God bless!!!

This sums it up for me.  What I was trying to say is that  I believe it is  wrong to DISCOURAGE the use or even the understanding of the number system/ theory. Is that a fair statement to make? My understanding of learning the number system means that you learn theory as well. (Intervals, scales and the formulas for forming major, all the minors etc, how to form chords,extensions etc)   Your example of how you use the number system is a very good example of how those numbers DO NOT limit you!! (I use a very similar approach to this as well) THAT is all I am trying to say.

You all bring up some very interesting points, and thank you all so much for your input! You have given me a lot to think about. How we each approach the mechanics of learning music is so varied that it is impossible to box anyone into a learning style/method. BUT I believe that at least learning some foundational information is very vital to being able to grow as a musician.

Offline baggettcindy

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Re: The number system "limits you?????"
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 08:36:34 PM »
I am using the number system to help with the bass...and am learning the notes at the same time. I am applying this concept to the organ/keyboard (as I start to practice more)
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