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Author Topic: Gospel musicians playing secular music  (Read 32448 times)

Offline floaded27

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2009, 09:44:43 AM »
Just to pose another question, if everyone on this earth were mute, and couldn't speak but could hear music, would we have various genres of music? That means, no lyrics to the music. :o

you would still have various musical styles and that would define the genres of music, which is basically how it is defined now EXCEPT for gospel. Music is defined into many different groups, including gospel, which is further subdivided into all the previous groups once again. example. u go into a store and u see Jazz, Rock, Rap, and Gospel, which is further divided into Gospel Jazz, Gospel Rock, Gospel Rap (all the aforementioned groups). so why not put the Gospel Jazz into the Jazz section, duh. So i play a song and say its Jazz. "oh no thats not Jazz, its Gospel Jazz." that doesnt even make sense. How can you make one group by the style of music but the other group by what its about?

so with no words this genre of "Gospel" will not exist at all. Because its not a legitimate style category at all. it would actually probably be called "Mixed Music".

so we are now calling this site learnmixedmusic.com
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Offline dhagler

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2009, 09:56:39 AM »
What about the fact that certain genres of music emphasize certain instruments? Consider, for example, the song "I Will Always Love You." It was (I believe) written and first recorded by Dolly Parton but made very, very famous by Whitney Houston. If you played the instrumental versions of both songs they would have the same melody but a different sound. Thoughts?

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2009, 10:01:30 AM »
you would still have various musical styles and that would define the genres of music, which is basically how it is defined now EXCEPT for gospel. Music is defined into many different groups, including gospel, which is further subdivided into all the previous groups once again. example. u go into a store and u see Jazz, Rock, Rap, and Gospel, which is further divided into Gospel Jazz, Gospel Rock, Gospel Rap (all the aforementioned groups). so why not put the Gospel Jazz into the Jazz section, duh. So i play a song and say its Jazz. "oh no thats not Jazz, its Gospel Jazz." that doesnt even make sense. How can you make one group by the style of music but the other group by what its about?

so with no words this genre of "Gospel" will not exist at all. Because its not a legitimate style category at all. it would actually probably be called "Mixed Music".

so we are now calling this site learnmixedmusic.com

With no words, no genre would exist. For example, blues is only blues because of the words that are sung, not the progressions. the 1-4-5 which is primarily blues, that can be altered, is played in gospel, r&b, blues, country, etc. Alicia Keys song, "Unbreakable" has the exact same progression that a quartet song sung by a well known gospel group. The gospel group came out with the song first, if I'm not mistaken. I can't remember the name of the song or the group, but I guarantee, without the words being sung on either song, you wouldn't differentiate between the songs. Alicia's is considered R&B because of the words, where as the gospel version is gospel because of the words. I'll try to find the gospel song so that you can see what I'm talking about.
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Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2009, 10:09:06 AM »
Some lyrics to the gospel version are:

"I belive I'll run on, see what the end's going to be"

If some know, help me out with the artist.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2009, 10:19:50 AM »
Found the gospel group, 7 sons of soul, "Run On"

This is what I found on youtube.

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Offline dhagler

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2009, 10:45:51 AM »
For a topic like this, it wouldn't be right not to mention sampling.... ;)

Offline floaded27

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2009, 11:08:24 AM »
With no words, no genre would exist. For example, blues is only blues because of the words that are sung, not the progressions. the 1-4-5 which is primarily blues, that can be altered, is played in gospel, r&b, blues, country, etc.

i disagree with that 90%. its not the progressions that make a genre. based on simple combinatorics, a finite number of elements chosen from a finite set of elements will have a finite number of combinations. the only way to make infinite combinations is to make the number elements chosen variable AND infinite.

meaning from only 12 roots there are a limited number of progressions available to use (u cant come up with a NEW progression, it already exists) there are progressions that are bound to be used across genres. in fact thats a given. 1-4-5 exists across every genre. its not the progression that determines the genre of music, its the style in which its played (timing, chord quality, type of instruments). Are you telling me a 1-4-5 in blues is going to sound exactly like a 1-4-5 in country and you wont be able to tell the difference until somebody starts singing over it? thats quite absurd.

but thats the thing, only Gospel has that quirk about it (the 10% i do agree). The only "genre" that does that. Most jazz music is instrumental but u know its jazz. and they play a lot of the same progressions that other music plays, but im sure u dont need someone singing "This is jazz, uh huh" over the track before u know what it is. But most "gospel" stuff i wouldnt know what it was until i heard words. (well actually i would know what it was and put it into is proper genre that wasnt Gospel)
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Offline FenderJazzGuy

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2009, 11:28:24 AM »
I believe what defines a certain genre is the "feel" of the music. Say for instance you take one song from every genre that is in C maj. C maj is C maj. What separates them all is the WAY its played. So, in my opinion, words dont define genre. Look at the few songs that Whitney Houston recorded that was previously recorded by Dolly Pardon. Same words, but different feel.

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2009, 12:06:19 PM »
i disagree with that 90%. its not the progressions that make a genre. based on simple combinatorics, a finite number of elements chosen from a finite set of elements will have a finite number of combinations. the only way to make infinite combinations is to make the number elements chosen variable AND infinite.

meaning from only 12 roots there are a limited number of progressions available to use (u cant come up with a NEW progression, it already exists) there are progressions that are bound to be used across genres. in fact thats a given. 1-4-5 exists across every genre. its not the progression that determines the genre of music, its the style in which its played (timing, chord quality, type of instruments). Are you telling me a 1-4-5 in blues is going to sound exactly like a 1-4-5 in country and you wont be able to tell the difference until somebody starts singing over it? thats quite absurd.

but thats the thing, only Gospel has that quirk about it (the 10% i do agree). The only "genre" that does that. Most jazz music is instrumental but u know its jazz. and they play a lot of the same progressions that other music plays, but im sure u dont need someone singing "This is jazz, uh huh" over the track before u know what it is. But most "gospel" stuff i wouldnt know what it was until i heard words. (well actually i would know what it was and put it into is proper genre that wasnt Gospel)

You've missed everything that I'm saying. I've been saying that progressions don't make the genre, its the words. That's why I brought up the example about alicia keys and the 7 sons of soul song. Both songs have the same progression, but are in different genres because of the words. BTW, theoretically, the 1-4-5 in blues is the same and the 1-4-5 in country, the difference comes into play with wording and like you stated timing. All I'm saying is that genre's are only categorized by lyrics. We as musicians have strictly limited certain progressions to the various styles. Its rare to hear major 7ths in country, but who said that it can't be. A few years ago, you didn't hear neo soul in gospel, but that new James Fortune song, "I wouldn't know you" is a banging gospel song with a neo soul style applied to it. BTW, there are more than just 12 roots in music. Indian music specifically Raga, has 22 intervals in its octave.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline betnich

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #109 on: October 08, 2009, 12:14:03 PM »
Yes, 'feel' is a large part of any genre. And there is a distinct 'Gospel' accent.

But, that being said, most commercial CCM or Urban Gospel music has been derived from the popular music styles of the time, maybe lagging 20-30 years behind those times...

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2009, 01:24:09 PM »
I tried to make my own cough syrup with everclear, didn't work. Maybe its my age, and I have no experience with making it, but I'll call up the seasoned folks and they'll hook it right up. ;D
You'll have to, somehow, share that hook up. ;) 8)
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline floaded27

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #111 on: October 08, 2009, 01:45:41 PM »
BTW, there are more than just 12 roots in music. Indian music specifically Raga, has 22 intervals in its octave.

i specifically meant western music. but if u heard that would u know its indian music or do u need words?

BTW, theoretically, the 1-4-5 in blues is the same and the 1-4-5 in country, the difference comes into play with wording and like you stated timing.


the difference comes in timing and rhythm, types of instruments, as well as chord choice, because some chords are closely associated with styles of music (same coupling goes with some instruments)







so now the lyrics and progressions are the same. if these three were instrumentals, are u telling me you couldnt tell they were different styles of music? Yes they are all gospel, actually the second one would be classified as CCM, not gospel, but whatever, but thats only because of the lyrics. but without lyrics we cant still classify them as distinct styles of music and categorize them accordingly.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline bass_mann1

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2009, 01:45:53 PM »
My personal opinion, God created music, man added the words, I have played all types of music,and I like most types. I will not play any that offends my spirit, I also agree "don't work,don't eat", every man will have to decide on his own,trough his own heart and spirit, hopefully consulting God first

continue to be blessed
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Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2009, 01:59:42 PM »
i specifically meant western music. but if u heard that would u know its indian music or do u need words?
..... but without lyrics we cant still classify them as distinct styles of music and categorize them accordingly.

In taking World Music in school, I can now pick it out, but before gaining the appreciation for music that I now have, I would have said that it was a mess.

That's my whole point. Please reread my previous posts thoroughly and you'll see that we agree. Without lyrics, its just music.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline jeremyr

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2009, 02:29:04 PM »
Mary is up in Heaven, not tryna visit an Earthling!!!

When was Mary taken to heaven by translation in the bible ?/? ?/? ?/?

The only 2 people in the bible that were taken to heaven by translation were Enoch and Elijah.  Other than that the bible states in Ecclesiastes 9:4-5( For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

And in 1 Thessolians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Somebody put me in the key of E#

Offline floaded27

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2009, 04:08:56 PM »
but without lyrics we cant still classify them as distinct styles of music and categorize them accordingly.
that was actually a typo. it should read "we CAN still classify them".  it is still music. but we will always find something to classify something by, thats with anything including music. that how our brains work.

but we'll agree to disagree for some parts of this. thats cool.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline Christlike1984

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #116 on: October 09, 2009, 08:18:11 PM »
When was Mary taken to heaven by translation in the bible ?/? ?/? ?/?

The only 2 people in the bible that were taken to heaven by translation were Enoch and Elijah.  Other than that the bible states in Ecclesiastes 9:4-5( For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

And in 1 Thessolians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


  2 Cor.5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he can never lose." Jim Elliot

Offline Christlike1984

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2009, 08:31:17 PM »
The Heavens, the Earth and everything within them were created by God for his good pleasure.  This includes music,I believe that our thoughts and intentions come into play when we are wondering whether we are glorifying God or not.  Take into account the first recorded act of worship.  Abel gave a better sacrifice.  For one because the text says that it was his best(The firstlings of his flock AND the fat thereof).  With Cain it just said he brought fruits of the ground, nothing special about it.  So are we doing something just to do it, just to fulfill OUR needs?  Or are we doing it to please the Lord and Glorify him.  It is also important to note the story of David going to retrieve the Ark.  Even though David wanted the presence of the Lord returned to Israel( which was a good thing), he went about it the wrong way. Putting it on a cart for one, instead of the levites carrying it with the specially prepared poles made for it.  Not only should worship be done, it should be done in spirit and in truth according to God's requirements.  Not just what we want to offer him.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he can never lose." Jim Elliot

Offline Christlike1984

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2009, 08:34:56 PM »
Another text supporting that when believers die they go to be with Christ. “I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.” (Phil. 1:20-26)
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he can never lose." Jim Elliot

Offline jeremyr

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Re: Gospel musicians playing secular music
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2009, 07:57:14 AM »
Happy Sabbath all,

Before I go into my response I'd like to say that I'm not lashing out in anger or trying to upset anyone, however I feel it is pertinent that we know the word that we may grow closer to God.   I'm not against people, but I am against things that aren't the truth according to the word of God.  Now with that lets dive in.

Please excuse my internet tone if I sound harsh, I type only out of love.

  2 Cor.5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This doesn't say anything about when you die you go straight to heaven, nor do the texts around it, so I'm not sure what you're trying to show with this text.

As a matter of fact if you read verse 1-7 leading up to your quoted verse you can clearly see that Paul is referring to not being content with the possessions and things of this world but rather wanting to be with God.  You can't just take one verse and have it mean whatever you want it to, you have to read all the surrounding text and any references to get a true understanding.

Here are verses 6-7
Quote
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
When we are at HOME in our bodies (i.e being happy with this world and what it has to offer) we are AWAY from the Lord. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with going straight to heaven after you die.  As a matter of fact if you can find 1 text that specifically say that's what happens (and you wont) I will give youe $10K via paypal.

Another text supporting that when believers die they go to be with Christ. “I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.” (Phil. 1:20-26)

In regards to this passage I think it's very important to realize that the bible does NOT contradict itself.  All text work together and it was paul himself who said "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (II Tim 3:16)".

With that being said this very same man that you're quoting (Paul) as saying we're going to go to heaven as soon as we die wrote the following in 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Quote
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So now the question I ask you is, why would Paul say one thing and then turn around and contradict himself?  The answer is that he did not and I beg that you read the word for yourself to understand  that as the bible says "STUDY (key word being STUDY) to show thyself approval.

Yes we shall go to heaven, but it will be when christ returns and the dead in christ shall rise.  It will be a glorious event and I honestly can't wait to see all of those who I haven't seen in so long as we travel to heaven together.  What a day it will be saints!
Somebody put me in the key of E#
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