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Author Topic: Interesting!!!!!  (Read 7482 times)

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2010, 03:04:40 PM »
And therein lies the problem.....point blank! Jesus told us to GO NOT wait for them to come!


 :D :D :D
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Offline DWBass

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2010, 03:07:35 PM »
And therein lies the problem.....point blank! Jesus told us to GO NOT wait for them to come!
Is it working? Not at my home church! I agree with ddwilkins' thoughts! Ministering should not be confined to the 4 walls of the church!
"Never Leave Home Without Your Groove On" :)

Offline malthumb

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2010, 03:47:54 PM »
....As far as what I'm reading on this thread, I'm understanding that people think its wrong because we are bringing the world into the church, well let's reverse it and take the church outside of the 4 walls and take church into the world

I agree that this is what some are saying but it is not the only point of debate.  To me it all boils down to "when that song is played, what does it put into your heart?".  Because for the most part the lyrics were not changed, the songs that Bishop Love sang took me back to high school.  Took me back to the club.  Took me back to who I was dating and what concerts I went to when I heard those songs.  Now, I recognize that this won't be true for everybody who hears him because a lot of the folks in that congregation weren't even born when some of those songs came out, but for enough of us, it will bring those thoughts.  I mentioned "Let It Rain" and "I Will Worship Him At All Times" because even though the beats and the melodies are familiar, the lyrics are different and unmistakenly directed towards God or towards Jesus.  While it's true that the lyrics "Always and forever, each moment with you.....is just like a dream to me...that somehow came true" could apply to Jesus or God as easily as they could to my high school sweetheart, the fact that I should even have to discern makes me want to pull back from doing that song with those lyrics in a worship service.  Nothing wrong with the lyrics.  They could EASILY have been written to describe a relationship with God, but they weren't and my memory cannot erase that.

......Bishop Love, used a tool that drew that individual in close enough to want to stay to hear God's word. That's what I think is wrong with the body of Christ today. We are so inclusive, that we run non-believers away. God gives us a choice to live for him or not, he never forces himself upon us, so why do we as Christians want to force doctrines on others and non-believers??

Yes he did use a very powerful and useful tool.  But sometimes tools can be misapplied.  I think the overall concept of what he is trying to do is fantastic.  I love the idea that contemporary gospel and contemporary christian worship genres bring a groove and a feel to worship service that can be wrapped around a solid message of praise and a solid message of worship.  It's just when you take words that were meant for one type of relationship and bend them to represent another type of relationship that I start to see lines blurring.  Music is a wonderful tool.  Hone it.  Refine it.  And use it.  But just any ol' song won't do.
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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2010, 03:51:05 PM »
So let me challenge something here:

If God values marriage and commitment to one wife/husband, what is wrong with singing love songs in church directed to your mate? Is there anything wrong with having a time in church where couples (married or ones fully committed to each other) show their love and sing songs about love?

Also are we (getting to the bottom line) saying that ANYTHING that does not glorify God or Christ should not in the church........period?

Offline malthumb

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2010, 03:57:39 PM »
So let me challenge something here:

If God values marriage and commitment to one wife/husband, what is wrong with singing love songs in church directed to your mate? Is there anything wrong with having a time in church where couples (married or ones fully committed to each other) show their love and sing songs about love?

I would say there is nothing particularly wrong with it, but in the manner that you describe it, what is gained from it?  And what do the unattached people in the church do while this is going on, get a headstart on the fellowship hour snacks?  <-----joke  ;)


Also are we (getting to the bottom line) saying that ANYTHING that does not glorify God or Christ should not in the church........period?

No.  There are things that are for the betterment of the church, like setting up guilds to decorate the sanctuary or fellowship hall.  There are things that are for the betterment of the community, like setting up youth basketball leagues or tutoring programs.  There are things that are for the betterment of individuals and groups in the congregation, like providing scholarships for the youth in the church to go to sumer camps or college.  Just a few off the top of my head.
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Offline browntree

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2010, 09:20:25 PM »
Yeah I've seen this before...thought it was an interesting way to make a point.  I would have played it and enjoyed it... Kirk Franklin (and many others) have made so many songs from R&B that its hiprocracy to try to say this is wrong... if you notice the songs chosen were love songs...

Stevie wonder has clearly proven that if you are a Christian making music, it has positivity and upliftment no matter of the label put on it to sell it.

Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

Offline floaded27

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2010, 01:42:01 AM »
The fact of the matter is that the church is for TEACHING about God, not bringing up other thoughts in peoples mind about some sins they may have committed while listening to those very songs people are trying to rewrite. we are not here to confuse the saints, so it plain and simple needs to stop.  Do you think that the people are oooo and aaahhhhh'ing over God or over their favorite "SLOW JAM" when that beat drops?  It's the latter and the stronger saints can get over the initla impression, but those weak saints, well we've just pushed them back 20 feet and that girl/guy sitting next to them in the pew is looking just a little bit TOOO good right now...smh (BTW, I've actually heard and know of people that this has happened to, so i'm not making this up).

I agree that this is what some are saying but it is not the only point of debate.  To me it all boils down to "when that song is played, what does it put into your heart?".  Because for the most part the lyrics were not changed, the songs that Bishop Love sang took me back to high school.  Took me back to the club.  Took me back to who I was dating and what concerts I went to when I heard those songs.  Now, I recognize that this won't be true for everybody who hears him because a lot of the folks in that congregation weren't even born when some of those songs came out, but for enough of us, it will bring those thoughts.  I mentioned "Let It Rain" and "I Will Worship Him At All Times" because even though the beats and the melodies are familiar, the lyrics are different and unmistakenly directed towards God or towards Jesus.  While it's true that the lyrics "Always and forever, each moment with you.....is just like a dream to me...that somehow came true" could apply to Jesus or God as easily as they could to my high school sweetheart, the fact that I should even have to discern makes me want to pull back from doing that song with those lyrics in a worship service.  Nothing wrong with the lyrics.  They could EASILY have been written to describe a relationship with God, but they weren't and my memory cannot erase that.


this was exactly my thoughts on the whole thing. secular sounding music is one thing (for that andre crouch reference) and totally ripping a song and trying to tweak words here and there are two different things. The question is always, where does it put the people's minds. Even with gospel songs this happens. For example, when the P&W team sing songs that we normally sing for communion, my mind goes to communion for a bit. Anytime anybody sings "Im going up yonder" my mind goes back to a funeral, because that song is always sang at just about every funeral. Which in either case isnt that bad (although nobody really wants to think about a funeral). So why do people find it odd to think that when CERTAIN (not all) secular songs (or beats) are played, people's minds would reflect on what they associate those songs with? The problem is, the things that they associate and thus reflect upon are almost always the things that they are trying to be free from. So why make it harder? Why cause some weaker ones to go into relapse?

What a lot of folks fail to realize that while certain things may not necessarily be right or wrong for US, they may be for someone else, and being reckless is what makes you wrong. Say you had a friend with a gambling addiction and y'all was going on vacation. While you may find it quite fine, taking a trip to Vegas or Atlantic City may not be the best choice for your friend. So while vacationing in Vegas or AC isnt wrong itself, knowingly subjecting your friend (with his problem) to such temptation is what makes you wrong and reckless!

Everyone isnt on your level. We all need to be mindful of that. There are people above us, and there are people below us, and others right on the same level with us. We need to be mindful of them all.

and call it playing semantics if you want, but Jesus does NOT make EVERYTHING right. Why would any of us need the Holy Spirit to keep us and guide us if all things were not RIGHT once you put Jesus into the picture? "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling"..... but wait, no one can ever fall if everything is now RIGHT through Jesus. Why would anybody need deliverance if we could just believe in Jesus and simply keep doing the same thing because its RIGHT now?
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2010, 05:20:54 AM »

... Say you had a friend with a gambling addiction and y'all was going on vacation. While you may find it quite fine, taking a trip to Vegas or Atlantic City may not be the best choice for your friend. So while vacationing in Vegas or AC isnt wrong itself, knowingly subjecting your friend (with his problem) to such temptation is what makes you wrong and reckless!
...

That's not wrong or reckless on my part if you can't control yourself in this environment. I'm not going to punish myself on behalf of your lack of self control. If that was the case, we all couldn't go anywhere. Temptation is around all day everyday. I've been to Vegas, so I can say that there's more to Vegas than just the casinos. I was there for a whole week, and not once did I spend any money in the casinos. Not because I didn't have the money, it was because I consumed with other sight seeing adventures. See, what I'm noticing is that people are trying to say what others will feel because they themselves feel or associate something with. Because your mind associates a song with going to club, doesn't mean that the next person will, or if you have a bad gambling habit, that going to Vegas is temptation.
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Offline blacklw234

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2010, 07:08:26 AM »
That's not wrong or reckless on my part if you can't control yourself in this environment. I'm not going to punish myself on behalf of your lack of self control. If that was the case, we all couldn't go anywhere. Temptation is around all day everyday. I've been to Vegas, so I can say that there's more to Vegas than just the casinos. I was there for a whole week, and not once did I spend any money in the casinos. Not because I didn't have the money, it was because I consumed with other sight seeing adventures. See, what I'm noticing is that people are trying to say what others will feel because they themselves feel or associate something with. Because your mind associates a song with going to club, doesn't mean that the next person will, or if you have a bad gambling habit, that going to Vegas is temptation.

+1 Im with you on that my man.
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Offline floaded27

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2010, 10:17:26 AM »
That's not wrong or reckless on my part if you can't control yourself in this environment. I'm not going to punish myself on behalf of your lack of self control. If that was the case, we all couldn't go anywhere. Temptation is around all day everyday. I've been to Vegas, so I can say that there's more to Vegas than just the casinos. I was there for a whole week, and not once did I spend any money in the casinos. Not because I didn't have the money, it was because I consumed with other sight seeing adventures. See, what I'm noticing is that people are trying to say what others will feel because they themselves feel or associate something with. Because your mind associates a song with going to club, doesn't mean that the next person will, or if you have a bad gambling habit, that going to Vegas is temptation.

i think u missed the whole point of the Vegas example. yes YOU know that there's more to Vegas and AC than casinos and other gambling venues and you may be consumed with other things, but for someone with an addiction or the process of recovery, those things he has a problem with will stand out. Same way a dude with lust issues isnt gonna go to a church womens convention and be so focused on talking with the old church mothers who have a lot to teach about the Word and other very interesting topics. You know who he scoping out, and even in a crowded room, they catch his eye easily.

but if you know they cant control and subject them to it anyway, that is irresponsible. whether we want to believe it or not, we do have some accountability for one another, especially if you say you care about them. So how could a pastor not care about his flock? How could we not care about our brothers and sisters in Christ? And you can duck and dodge responsibility for certain actions, but if you are in a position of LEADERSHIP, you are held accountable. But forget the leadership position thing. Whatever happened to looking out for one another?

Music is powerful. People forget that because its enjoyable. But its enjoyable because it is powerful. Music does more often than not invoke nostalgia and memories. And while a song jogging memories about Uncle Fred in the dance contest at the family reunion years ago may be harmless, memories of particular events of a sinful lifestyle that you are trying to come away from is not a good thing.

What it partially comes down to is knowing your audience. Just because something is done in one place without adverse effects, doesnt mean it doesnt have any adverse effects at all. Just because you think about something, doesnt mean you gonna now go out and paint the town red and just abandon God. But if any of you know about spiritual warfare, all it takes is just one point of vulnerability to fall to an attack by the enemy. So while at one church something may be done, the same thing at another may set several people up for a point of weakness. And especially as a pastor, if he/she knows that about their congregation (as they SHOULD), and still do certain things, yes, thats irresponsible and reckless.

What some dont want to admit or come to terms with is that in certain occasions we do have to limit and censor ourselves and what we do for the sake of others who arent as strong as we are. You might not like it, probably hate it, but thats reality. and its not about punishing yourself, its about better judgment. You may just have to do that particular activity either by yourself, or with another group that can handle it. Its worth that if you dont cause someone to stumble.
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Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2010, 11:19:17 AM »
So in a congregation of 3000+ members, a pastor or the minister must censor everything that he/she is ministering on the sake of those who are weak? How is this going to be possible? IMHO, one can never overcome past temptations until they are put into those situations without being tempted. Some don't agree with it, but that's just how I feel.
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Offline ssabass

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2010, 12:05:11 PM »
Some of you keep saying, what comes to mind when you hear those songs. Well what comes to mind when I hear Always & Forever is, my wife that I truly love & want to spend the rest of my life with. When I hear Reunited i think of the time my wife & I broke up while we were dating & got back togehter & it felt so good. Thats when we decided to get married. Love songs have been a very important part of most marriges. They sometimes help you say things that, maybe you can't put into words yourself. Love songs for me was a very powerful tool, in courting my wife. So when we got married in a church, I sung a song called "I Love You", by the Whispers, as she walked towards me down the isle. I still cry every time I hear that song. Maybe some of you brothas met your wifes on friday & married her on saturday, just past up all the stuff in between. It wasn't that easy for most of us. Yeah sometime tools can be misapplied as malthumb stated. But the Bible is our most important tool & it's misused or as malthumb says, misapplied everyday. As a matter of fact the bible is probably the most misused/misapplied tool there is. I believe this pastor used those songs in a very positive way.

Offline floaded27

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2010, 12:05:29 PM »
so its our job to tempt one another so we can be stronger? nah, not buying that.

and ur thinking in extremes. there are different levels of censorship. censorship isnt always eliminating everything altogether. but sometimes u do need to avoid until later when its more suitable. same reason why you dont have all kinds of adult conversations in front of children. same thing. which is why if you are a minister or pastor, you need to be called, and be sensitive to what God is telling you.

Have you ever been in a position where you wanted to tell some people about some stuff or expose some things and God said "Not yet"? Sometimes because everyone isnt in a position to receive it yet. And who knows more about Gods people than God? And if God censors what you are to say, do you say "no way God, im gonna say whatever i want to say because i have a big congregation of 3000 members". No, you're censored just the same.

And if it says he'll leave the 99 to get the 1 thats lost, what makes u think he wont have something unsaid for that 1 person? Thats why you need to be in tune with the Spirit. For matters like this, it shouldnt be left up to your own discretion all the time. The same way Pastors and ministers need to be prayed up to be sensitive to such things, we musicians need to be as well, because we are ministers just the same.

But if you've never been in that position, then we cant discuss this any further because you cant relate. Not being mean or harsh, but thats the point of the matter.
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Offline ssabass

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2010, 12:18:16 PM »
Here is the video. Play it for your wife or fiance. Learn the song & sing it to her, even if you can't hold a note. Men Don't ever think because you are married & saved, you don't have to "WOW" your wifes. Like I said, now every time I hear this song it makes me cry. I'm about to cry right now, just posting it.       
Whispers- I Love You

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2010, 12:18:42 PM »
..... Yeah sometime tools can be misapplied as malthumb stated. But the Bible is our most important tool & it's misused or as malthumb says, misapplied everyday. As a matter of fact the bible is probably the most misused/misapplied tool there is. I believe this pastor used those songs in a very positive way.

This the first time that I've ever heard this and it is the most powerful statement I've heard thus far. +100000000

so its our job to tempt one another so we can be stronger? nah, not buying that.

and ur thinking in extremes. there are different levels of censorship. censorship isnt always eliminating everything altogether. but sometimes u do need to avoid until later when its more suitable. same reason why you dont have all kinds of adult conversations in front of children. same thing. which is why if you are a minister or pastor, you need to be called, and be sensitive to what God is telling you.

Have you ever been in a position where you wanted to tell some people about some stuff or expose some things and God said "Not yet"? Sometimes because everyone isnt in a position to receive it yet. And who knows more about Gods people than God? And if God censors what you are to say, do you say "no way God, im gonna say whatever i want to say because i have a big congregation of 3000 members". No, you're censored just the same.

And if it says he'll leave the 99 to get the 1 thats lost, what makes u think he wont have something unsaid for that 1 person? Thats why you need to be in tune with the Spirit. For matters like this, it shouldnt be left up to your own discretion all the time. The same way Pastors and ministers need to be prayed up to be sensitive to such things, we musicians need to be as well, because we are ministers just the same.

But if you've never been in that position, then we cant discuss this any further because you cant relate. Not being mean or harsh, but thats the point of the matter.

Do you know if this is the "later time?" Umm, no you don't. When is it more suitable to talk about it. That's what bothers me about some Christians, they have to "wait" until its more suitable. If not now, when? This is subjective and honestly, no time is suitable. Obviously, with the responses this thread is recieving, there's always going to be someone who thinks that what is done and said in the church is not suitable. And being censitive to the spirit, I know all about that. I can relate. And BTW, I'm not saying tempt one another. Again, don't put your definition and perspective of temptation on someone else.
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churchyreal

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2010, 12:42:49 PM »
Some of you keep saying, what comes to mind when you hear those songs. Well what comes to mind when I hear Always & Forever is, my wife that I truly love & want to spend the rest of my life with. When I hear Reunited i think of the time my wife & I broke up while we were dating & got back togehter & it felt so good. Thats when we decided to get married. Love songs have been a very important part of most marriges. They sometimes help you say things that, maybe you can't put into words yourself. Love songs for me was a very powerful tool, in courting my wife. So when we got married in a church, I sung a song called "I Love You", by the Whispers, as she walked towards me down the isle. I still cry every time I hear that song. Maybe some of you brothas met your wifes on friday & married her on saturday, just past up all the stuff in between. It wasn't that easy for most of us. Yeah sometime tools can be misapplied as malthumb stated. But the Bible is our most important tool & it's misused or as malthumb says, misapplied everyday. As a matter of fact the bible is probably the most misused/misapplied tool there is. I believe this pastor used those songs in a very positive way.

This

Offline floaded27

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2010, 02:31:07 PM »
Do you know if this is the "later time?" Umm, no you don't. When is it more suitable to talk about it. That's what bothers me about some Christians, they have to "wait" until its more suitable. If not now, when? This is subjective and honestly, no time is suitable. Obviously, with the responses this thread is recieving, there's always going to be someone who thinks that what is done and said in the church is not suitable. And being sensitive to the spirit, I know all about that. I can relate. And BTW, I'm not saying tempt one another. Again, don't put your definition and perspective of temptation on someone else.

what im saying is sometimes "when" is not for us to decide. Yes this could have good and well been that "later time" and was either instructed or permitted to move as such. And if thats the case, there will be some that disagree, but they arent in that position to make those decisions. And God will get the results he wanted. But on the same hand it could have not been the right time and he was acting upon his own desire. And any adverse effects he is accountable for.

the thing is just like I dont know, you dont either, none of us do. so we all should stop, ME included, assuming what exactly was the case here.

there will always be someone who thinks something isnt suitable in the church. and sometimes they can be right; sometimes they can be wrong; and sometimes it depends. There are things that are outright never suitable in the church. Then there are some things that are suitable to some churches and not suitable for others, and vice versa. And there are things that are suitable everywhere. And I think here is where we are blurred.

We have trouble putting things into the right category when the content is questionable. We all get that reading the Bible is suitable in every church. We all get that smoking crack is not suitable in any church. But when we get to stuff like this, singing love songs (or rather modifying existing songs, which is the case here), you got people who feel this isnt ok so they put it in the "never ok anywhere" category, and you have people who feel it is okand put it in the "always ok everywhere" category. But is it really so, or is it a case by case basis of where its ok and where its not. And sometimes thats just what it is. And sometimes it is a someone is wrong and someone is right situation. I hardly think this is where we all will come to the same conclusion about what it is.

all i say is we just have to be careful. there's nothing wrong with being careful. nothing at all. nothing to argue about there. hopefully i'll shut up now. lol
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline malthumb

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2010, 02:39:13 PM »
.....But the Bible is our most important tool & it's misused or as malthumb says, misapplied everyday. As a matter of fact the bible is probably the most misused/misapplied tool there is.....

So true.
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Offline blacklw234

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2010, 02:43:29 PM »
This the first time that I've ever heard this and it is the most powerful statement I've heard thus far. +100000000

Do you know if this is the "later time?" Umm, no you don't. When is it more suitable to talk about it. That's what bothers me about some Christians, they have to "wait" until its more suitable. If not now, when? This is subjective and honestly, no time is suitable. Obviously, with the responses this thread is recieving, there's always going to be someone who thinks that what is done and said in the church is not suitable. And being censitive to the spirit, I know all about that. I can relate. And BTW, I'm not saying tempt one another. Again, don't put your definition and perspective of temptation on someone else.

ddwilkins you and I think alot alike. Im telling you, it all has to do with the doctrine you have been taught. The funny thing about it is, many people say one thing but they truly r not living it. They say it only for show. Then they go and do things that r way more detromental to the body of Christ. I have been around 37 years and I have learned the ways of carnel Christians.
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Offline dremy2006

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Re: Interesting!!!!!
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2010, 03:57:39 PM »
..well I put in my 1 cent here is my 2... why can't the chruch be creative..why when we do movies we have to "sometimes" get fok that don't even know God.....and A.Keys she into that carma stuff...I just don't like tha fact that we have to go to the world... its just like at my church.. I'm ova the sound ministry...with two other brothers "under" me...and what we do.. after service we would play music..(CD's)... int'l artist..local artist..but what get me is when you have these so called gospel rapper doing tha mix tape thing and rappin over JZ or lil wayne.beats.and wonna bring that in the church.. I told them nooooooooo way... take that cd out and throw it away....remember when Jesus turn ova the table...and when he sat them down in groups..and taught the word...but these days is the music thats drawin the people...memba..it was loucifer (devil) that held that office....oh well.. thats more like 4 cent.....
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