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Author Topic: Tone is all in hands??  (Read 4215 times)

Offline 6stringapprentice

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Tone is all in hands??
« on: June 02, 2010, 05:46:11 PM »
OK I've been hearing this phrase almost as long as I've been playing bass and I would have to say that completely and wholeheartedly disagree. I don't this the statement is so much false as it is mis-worded. My take is that tone starts in the hands.

There are so many components of tone I think it would be foolish to say tone is ALL in the hands.
Por Ejemplo

HANDS
STRINGS
string material
winding speed
core shape
string gauge
tapered, exposed, normal core
BRIDGE
material
mass
top loaded
thru Body
NUT material
Fretted or Fretless
Fret Material
Fretboard material
Neck Material
Neck Thru or Bolt on
Body woods
PICKUPS
active or passive
single coil
dual coil
quad coil
triple coil
Split coil
reverse split coil
sidewinders
series / parallel
magnet material
magnet strength
pole diameter
pole height
number of windings
diameter of windings
ELECTRONICS
passive active
capacitor value
capacitor type
pot value
active blend
passive blend
blend value
FET or OP AMP input
FET type
Op amp type
Input impedance
preamp voicing
2 band 3 band 4 band eq
boost and cut DB
eq centers
eq bandwidths

(Deep Breath) ... and then you have amps and cabs etc
Anyways please forgive the rant, I think most people understand what this phrase means but it is quoted so much as fact (mostly by people playing very expensive instruments  ::)) that some younger players may be confused by it. At least I know I was a while back.
Sounding Mathematics.

Offline dhagler

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 09:35:38 PM »
Well stated, 6string. There are so many variables yet players far and wide search for a certain tone by:

1. buying certain basses
2. modding existing basses
3. changing components
4. changing strings

There are others, I'm sure. :).

And this is just my opinion: 99.5% of your audience won't care what kind of bass you are playing, or what kind of strings you are using, or what type of rig you are playing through. Most of us do not play in front of a room full of bass players. :)

I've been playing a little over five years. I strive to be on tempo, in the right key, playing the right notes or progression, tuned properly, not too loud at the wrong times, not too soft at the wrong times, locked in with the drummer. For me, that works.

But that's just me.

Offline DWBass

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 06:27:03 AM »
While you may disagree........I saw a video clip of Victor Wooten playing an old beat up piece of crap bass and he was making that thing sing! A nice bass with nice new strings can certainly make sounding good easier but if you're good, it doesn't matter what you play!
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Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 07:09:34 AM »
Most of it is.   I would say 80% hands, 20% gear.  With all that you just listed, if you sat them down right in front of you, you're not going to hear a tone at all.  Think of it in another way.  Take a trumpet player.  He could have a Monet 4 valve or three valve system C, made of copper/brass mix, and the mouthpiece could be a 3c or 14d4.  If that trumpet player has a jacked up embrouchure (the way your lips buzz on the mouthpiece) hes going to sound horrible.  All those components contribute to how the tone is amplified.  I could give a 1 week beginner a Fodera with a Aggie 750 and 810's and he'd sound like a beginner with Fodera and Aggie rig. 

Honestly I used to hate to hear ppl say that, but the more I practiced and tried playing in different places, altering attacks, etc, alot if it is all in the hands.  Of course an Ash bass will make your tone sound different than say a Mahogany, but its still your tone.  Its one reason why my whole outlook on buying gear has changed. 
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Offline kevmove02

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 08:15:36 AM »
BassgyGrace, I am in complete agreement (excellent example by the way). While particular sonic signatures can only be achieved by a particular assembly of materials, our physical interaction dramatically impact the sound it produces.

"In music, articulation refers to the direction or performance technique which affects the transition or continuity on single note or between multiple notes or sounds. There are many different kinds of articulation, each having a different effect on how the note is played. Some articulation marks include the slur, phrase mark, staccato, staccatissimo, accent, sforzando, rinforzando, and legato. Each articulation is represented by a different symbol placed above or below the note (depending on its position on the stave). Woodwind and brass instruments generally articulate by tonguing, the use of the tongue to break the airflow into the instrument. Bowed stringed instruments use different bowing techniques to achieve different articulations."

Therefore, the way we fret and pluck a string, the amount of pressure we apply, the duration of the notes, etc, are what truly make up whatwe call "tone". Now if you want to discuss frequency ranges, harmonic resonance and sympathetic vibration, and other things related to the study of sound, then you will stand on firmer ground.

Offline 6stringapprentice

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 10:14:55 AM »
I guess a bunch of it would have to do with my interpretation of tone.

To me most of what is in the hands is technique not tone. I do believe that technique influences tone. IMO the reason why Victor Wooten will sound like Vic despite the bass or rig he's playing is not because he carries his tone with him but his personal technique and expression.

For example, if you were to take personal technique and expression out of the equation.

Let's take the SMV tour. OK you give Stanley a Ken smith, you give Marcus a MTD, and you give Vic a Musicman. 3 basses with very unique tones and three players with very different techniques and expressions but remember we are deleting the latter from the equation. So we tell all three bassist to finger a F# major scale starting at the 2 fret of the E string at 100BPM.
Now my bet is if you were to listen to a blind recording of this it would probably be difficult to decipher which bassist is on which bass. On the other hand you would easily recognize the 3 basses by their distinct tones.

Now if you were to tell the three to start jamming, therefore adding personal technique and expression back into the equation, then it would easily become obvious which bassist was playing which bass.
Sounding Mathematics.

Offline berbie

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 10:19:11 AM »
You take care of so many things on that list when you simply buy a bass.  You don't have to  know all those things if you go by the name, the price range and your own garnered info about basses and the way it sounds to you.  A lot of the changes that you make to a moderately priced well set up tone adjusted name brand bass being played through at least a moderately priced well adjusted amp will not result in a great improvement in tone.  I am just an amateur, but most of the time I don't notice a great difference. I do notice a difference right away though when a bass changes hands.  Not always better or worse, just different.  I notice a difference just changing my own hand style that is greater than that of a change in basses or strings. I don't really know about pickups.  I went through several basses as the above became clear to me. Of course, most of the people posting here might already be advanced to where the hands would be less of a factor and for them, other things moreso. 

Offline kevmove02

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 11:29:43 AM »
You can't separate the player from the instrument, because instruments don't play themselves. This line of thought is addressing a scenario that very rarely occurs: bass players sitting around comparing F# on different bass guitars. Again, observing from the listeners perspective, they are not thinking, "Oh that's Bernard Edwards playing a Musicman with DR Strings". They are thinking, "That's the bassline from Good Times by Chic". In fact, when someone asked what kind of strings he used when performing Good Times, he asked Nile Rodgers if he knew the name of the strings that come with the Musicman bass.

While the bass and the rig expand or limit the sonic possibilities, it is ultimately the performer who determines what the audience will hear. And in reference to SMV, unless they were exchanging hands, there is no way they could sound exactly the same while playing the same instruments. As far as the instruments themselves, I have heard a Ken Smith, but I would never be able to identify it on a recording. I guess I got some work to do (not).

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2010, 12:08:31 PM »
...As far as the instruments themselves, I have heard a Ken Smith, but I would never be able to identify it on a recording. I guess I got some work to do (not).

Yes you do!!! ;D ;D ;D Just messing. Smith's have there own distinct sound that I can definitely tell when someone is playing a Smith. Although I'm building my own bass, I still want a Smith in my arsenal.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline berbie

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2010, 02:02:38 PM »
On the SMV tour, do you say that if they played scales on the same bass, you wouldn't know when the bass changed hands?   Do you say that when the average bassist(amateur)or bassists played scales on a bass(the same bass) you couldn't tell when the bass changed hands?  Personally, I could much more easily tell when the bass changed hands than when the hands changed basses.(assuming that the same amp and same settings were used with each bass.  (I know I got some work to do)

Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2010, 03:00:23 PM »
I guess a bunch of it would have to do with my interpretation of tone.

To me most of what is in the hands is technique not tone. I do believe that technique influences tone. IMO the reason why Victor Wooten will sound like Vic despite the bass or rig he's playing is not because he carries his tone with him but his personal technique and expression.

From Webster:
Quote
Tone
1 : vocal or musical sound of a specific quality <spoke in low tones> <masculine tones>; especially : musical sound with respect to timbre and manner of expression
2 a : a sound of definite pitch and vibration b : whole step
3 : accent or inflection expressive of a mood or emotion


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Offline 6stringapprentice

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 03:32:13 PM »
I guess a bunch of it would have to do with my interpretation of tone.

To me most of what is in the hands is technique not tone. I do believe that technique influences tone. IMO the reason why Victor Wooten will sound like Vic despite the bass or rig he's playing is not because he carries his tone with him but his personal technique and expression.

For example, if you were to take personal technique and expression out of the equation.
...

From Virginia Tech Mutimedia Music Dictionary
Quote

Tone

1. An interval consisting of two semitones, that is a whole step.

2. The particular sound of an instrument or voice, as well as the performer's particular coloring of that sound. For example, the tone produced by a certain clarinetist could be said to be rich, dark, and mellow; this is the result of the natural sound of the instrument, combined with the performer's particular technique of playing.

I think this is probably the best illustration of how I interpret tone. The word it better than I do. I definitely agree you can't remove musician from the equation but you sure as heck can't remove the instrument as the phrase implies. Anyways toe-may-toe /  ta-ma-toe. All I was really trying to say in the first post is that saying tone is all in the hands is a mite crazy  ;D.
Sounding Mathematics.

Offline mjl422

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2010, 03:57:55 PM »
I was just going to say this. 



From Webster:
Tone
1 : vocal or musical sound of a specific quality <spoke in low tones> <masculine tones>; especially : musical sound with respect to timbre and manner of expression
2 a : a sound of definite pitch and vibration b : whole step
3 : accent or inflection expressive of a mood or emotion


It's a matter of symantics.  When some people talk about tone, they are talking about the sound of the instrument as well as the person playing it.  Some people are talking about how the person makes the instrument sound.  I've heard Fitzgerald on several different basses (some of them might've even been his) and he always sound like Fitzgerald.  You could give me Gouche's MTD and it would sound totally different in my hands.  I've seen you on your videos (6stringapprentice) with different basses and you made all of them sing.

I think the point that people are making when they say "tone is in the hands" is that: If you can play, you can make any bass sound good.  If you can't play, then it doesn't matter what kind of bass you play.  While I agree that everything that you named effects your overall tone, I still say it starts with the hands.
 
 
 
 

Offline floaded27

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 09:39:59 PM »
I think the point that people are making when they say "tone is in the hands" is that: If you can play, you can make any bass sound good.  If you can't play, then it doesn't matter what kind of bass you play.  While I agree that everything that you named effects your overall tone, I still say it starts with the hands.

i think what he's trying to say is making any bass sound good does not equal making any bass sound the same. there are too many other factors in the equation as he listed.
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Offline mjl422

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 10:10:10 PM »
i think what he's trying to say is making any bass sound good does not equal making any bass sound the same. there are too many other factors in the equation as he listed.

I understand the point he is making.  And I agree with his overall point.  That's why I said it's a matter of symantics. I was just tryna make the point that if it's not (first) in your hands, the rest of the stuff doesn't matter anyway.

Offline kevmove02

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 08:39:41 AM »
A scrub is a scrub, a baller is a baller, regardless of what the shoes or clothes may lead you to believe.

Offline floaded27

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 09:13:30 AM »
A scrub is a scrub, a baller is a baller, regardless of what the shoes or clothes may lead you to believe.
but u not ballin the same way in shorts and sneakers as you would in a bubble coat and timbs. lol
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Offline jonesl78

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 09:54:01 AM »
I think a basketplayer and his gear is a perfect analogy. Top people in their profession use top gear for a reason. Anythng less would not allow them to perform at their optimum level. Can you imagine wilkins and Jordan participating in the dunk contest with church shoes on? lol!!! 

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 10:49:26 AM »
The basketball and church shoes analogy sucks because that's like saying a bass player playing the bass line with a ukelele. Top gear doesn't mean optimum level.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline DWBass

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Re: Tone is all in hands??
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 11:03:36 AM »
but u not ballin the same way in shorts and sneakers as you would in a bubble coat and timbs. lol
Hmmm.........there was a cat in my neighborhood who couldn't afford athletic gear (he was actually a younger brother to Gus & Ray Williams, ex-NBA players). He would hustle cats everyday. Dressed in regular clothes and sometimes boots. He still wiped the court with any challenger! He was that good!

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