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Author Topic: I really don't know what to do...  (Read 8190 times)

Offline phbrown

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2010, 04:15:30 PM »
Don't worry about it Kev,

I think i was going to say something about how at first you were saying he should leave and then you were saying he should stay. It was just a little confusing to me.

Offline Mysteryman

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2010, 11:22:37 PM »
I've been considering leaving my church the last week. I've been at this point a number of times before but I stayed. I look back over the years and God has blessed me. We as musicans have gotten better but nothing has really changed. I've seen the same cycles. I told a few friends to pray. I look back at the time I've been there 16 years. Now I'm counting the years and checking my work. If God doesn't do something soon I'm really not sure what I'm going to do. This next 6 months will be critical as I may be gone if things don't "really" change.
Vision without action is just day dreaming. I miss practicing.

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2010, 08:16:12 AM »
I just don't understand ministries. Why do they not focus on the music department? These are reason, good musicians leave churches and stop playing period, go play at other churches, or go to secular gigs. Then we get looked up differently when we attempt to address various issues with the pastor or those in charge. SMH. I've been there as well. I just emailed my praise and worship leader this week telling her that I'm at a road block and feel like I'm not progressing musically and spiritually because we don't rehearse at all. Seriously!!!! Our gift and talents are being raped because we at the church can pick up material within 5 minutes and then they expect us to play and sing those songs immediately. Well, instead of me playing out of feeling, I'm thinking with my playing therefore I'm missing my opportunity to worship through my playing. People just don't understand.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline dhagler

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2010, 10:52:47 PM »
Some random observations:

1. Very often we choose songs based on who comes to rehearsal instead of tying songs to the message. I don't ever know the message in advance. Perhaps our MOM does but he doesn't share that information with us. Seems to me that the pastor should meet with the MOM, and out of that meeting should come a song list (it doesn't matter to me whose idea the songs are). The MOM would then communicate those songs to the musicians and the choir. Am I being idealistic in my thinking? Who determines the songs on Sunday at your church?

2. I wonder if churches who employ full time musicians have the same problems as those who employ part time musicians. Perhaps part time musicians don't take the position as seriously and thus don't make time for extra rehearsals, meetings, etc. If any of you are employed full time by a church, please chime in. :)

3.

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2010, 05:53:22 AM »
Some random observations:

1. Very often we choose songs based on who comes to rehearsal instead of tying songs to the message. I don't ever know the message in advance. Perhaps our MOM does but he doesn't share that information with us. Seems to me that the pastor should meet with the MOM, and out of that meeting should come a song list (it doesn't matter to me whose idea the songs are). The MOM would then communicate those songs to the musicians and the choir. Am I being idealistic in my thinking? Who determines the songs on Sunday at your church?

2. I wonder if churches who employ full time musicians have the same problems as those who employ part time musicians. Perhaps part time musicians don't take the position as seriously and thus don't make time for extra rehearsals, meetings, etc. If any of you are employed full time by a church, please chime in. :)

3.


1. In my case, the MOM or Praise and Worship leader is the wife of the Pastor, so therefore, she should know the message and pick the songs accordingly. Even with that, we don't rehearse.

2. I'm part time and would put in the extra time for rehearsals because I'm that passionate about my music and playing to the best of my ability to God.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline dhagler

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2010, 06:38:13 AM »

2. I'm part time and would put in the extra time for rehearsals because I'm that passionate about my music and playing to the best of my ability to God.

I'm with you, dd!

Offline berbie

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2010, 11:59:38 AM »
Kev I think you hit the nail right on the head with you comments.

Offline Mysteryman

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2010, 12:58:44 PM »
Our pastor gave us a general rule of what he wants for Sunday morning. Worship songs, hymns, anthems. He like wordy songs with substance. Reason for this is his generation. I think is in your church structure. Usually the teaching ministry perpare sermons for the week. At my church you dont always know who is going to preach. So youve got to be prayed up. At my church if you are in tune to what is going on around you will know what songs to sing. I think if you pray and first play what the the pastor wants and stick to music that will edify the whole body you will choose the right songs.
Vision without action is just day dreaming. I miss practicing.

Offline kodacolor

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2010, 02:50:32 PM »
How much time do your musicians have to learn a song?  How many new songs must they learn per week/song cycle/whatever?

Offline jeremyr

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 01:29:45 AM »
He like wordy songs with substance. Reason for this is his generation. I think is in your church structure.

Man that's a whole subject by itself..lol.

I'm on the side of your pastor though.  What I've realized lately is that most of these "Gospel" songs now-a-days either don't mention Jesus, try to sound to "urban", or just repeat the same 6 words for 6-8 minutes and have no real message to them.

There are some good urban "wordy" songs though.  Surgery is a perfect example. 

Somebody put me in the key of E#

Offline Mysteryman

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2010, 02:34:10 AM »
Man that's a whole subject by itself..lol.

I'm on the side of your pastor though.  What I've realized lately is that most of these "Gospel" songs now-a-days either don't mention Jesus, try to sound to "urban", or just repeat the same 6 words for 6-8 minutes and have no real message to them.

There are some good urban "wordy" songs though.  Surgery is a perfect example. 


He likes
THESE
type of songs. I love them. Other musicans and leaders that's a different story. We some what give him what he wants.
Vision without action is just day dreaming. I miss practicing.

Offline browntree

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2010, 08:08:35 AM »
I just don't understand ministries. Why do they not focus on the music department? These are reason, good musicians leave churches and stop playing period, go play at other churches, or go to secular gigs. Then we get looked up differently when we attempt to address various issues with the pastor or those in charge. SMH. I've been there as well. I just emailed my praise and worship leader this week telling her that I'm at a road block and feel like I'm not progressing musically and spiritually because we don't rehearse at all. Seriously!!!! Our gift and talents are being raped because we at the church can pick up material within 5 minutes and then they expect us to play and sing those songs immediately. Well, instead of me playing out of feeling, I'm thinking with my playing therefore I'm missing my opportunity to worship through my playing. People just don't understand.

Man I sooooo feel everything you said bro.  I'm not saying it's every church, but it definitely a lot of them.  I honestly believe it's a power issue.  Our churches (I should say clergy) have fallen victim to "popularity".  They want to control... The pastors/ministers/deacons like that feeling of being in charge and their roles being the most important in the church.  They are so afraid people will come for the music, but it's called the MUSIC MINISTRY! 

We have bibles that we read, but we ignore the most obvious.  For example, Jesus Christ ministered to people in different ways.  Isn't that why we have different ministries at our church??? To effectively minister to people in different ways?  Through music...dance...the word... etc...

I really believe it's a fear of loosing mind control on the people... they won't "do what I tell them" mentality.  Some of the most free, dedicated, fervent worshipers I've seen were in the music ministry...not the pulpit... Now that's got me smh...

btw, I'm drafting my resignation letter for the end of July.  I just got back from Baltimore with the Male Chorus, and I'm going to Orlando with the other choir, and I'll step down.  I have to believe God has more for me, and I know I have more to give to Him.

Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2010, 08:29:41 AM »
Man I sooooo feel everything you said bro.  I'm not saying it's every church, but it definitely a lot of them.  I honestly believe it's a power issue.  Our churches (I should say clergy) have fallen victim to "popularity".  They want to control... The pastors/ministers/deacons like that feeling of being in charge and their roles being the most important in the church.  They are so afraid people will come for the music, but it's called the MUSIC MINISTRY! 

We have bibles that we read, but we ignore the most obvious.  For example, Jesus Christ ministered to people in different ways.  Isn't that why we have different ministries at our church??? To effectively minister to people in different ways?  Through music...dance...the word... etc...

I really believe it's a fear of loosing mind control on the people... they won't "do what I tell them" mentality.  Some of the most free, dedicated, fervent worshipers I've seen were in the music ministry...not the pulpit... Now that's got me smh...

btw, I'm drafting my resignation letter for the end of July.  I just got back from Baltimore with the Male Chorus, and I'm going to Orlando with the other choir, and I'll step down.  I have to believe God has more for me, and I know I have more to give to Him.

Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16


I feel ya on the control issue. Ironically on yesterday's message the Pastor spoke about Christians quitting and complaining. Its ironic to me because earlier this week, one of our musicians stepped down completed from the music department because issues that have arose and nothing was done about it. They also recieved my email this week in regards to rehearsals, so I'm assuming he is thinking that I'm complaining. Now, this has happened before where I kept asking for information in regards to a major concert that we was having with a major artist. We never recieved anything until the day of. In the "ONE" rehearsal before the concert, he sat down with all the musicians and stated that we needed to have a mind of not complaining about this and that. Well, when we finally sit down and talk amongst everyone, my 1st question will be, "Can you effective give a message to the people without preparing at all?" It doesn't matter what we already know, its matters if we are prepared with what we know.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline kevmove02

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2010, 08:44:43 AM »
To provide a contrast, let me ask this question: do you think Brooklyn Tabernacle has any problems with getting people together for practice? If you are unfamiliar with them, please take a moment, go on Youtube, type in their name and watch a video or two. So what is it that Carol Cymbala is doing so special the rest of us find hard to create within our music ministries? It's all about stated purpose and ground rules. We are focusing on the music ministry because this is a music oriented site, but the issues of discipline and order are present in every entity; where order and purpose are established, good results are produced; the lack thereof produces many of the outcomes being discussed in this thread. As an individual in the midst of a less than ideal situation, ask yourself, "is what I am experiencing indicative of what occurs throughout our ministry or is it isolated? If it is isolated, why is the same level of order and discipline not being applied to the music ministry as to other ministries?" Ultimately, if those who have the ability to impose order and discipline neglect to do so, you are in a very hard place, because there is nothing worse than apathy. Unless you find a way to spark people into caring, you will find yourself taking on that same spirit. Stay armored up.

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2010, 09:41:13 AM »
To provide a contrast, let me ask this question: do you think Brooklyn Tabernacle has any problems with getting people together for practice? If you are unfamiliar with them, please take a moment, go on Youtube, type in their name and watch a video or two. So what is it that Carol Cymbala is doing so special the rest of us find hard to create within our music ministries? It's all about stated purpose and ground rules. We are focusing on the music ministry because this is a music oriented site, but the issues of discipline and order are present in every entity; where order and purpose are established, good results are produced; the lack thereof produces many of the outcomes being discussed in this thread. As an individual in the midst of a less than ideal situation, ask yourself, "is what I am experiencing indicative of what occurs throughout our ministry or is it isolated? If it is isolated, why is the same level of order and discipline not being applied to the music ministry as to other ministries?" Ultimately, if those who have the ability to impose order and discipline neglect to do so, you are in a very hard place, because there is nothing worse than apathy. Unless you find a way to spark people into caring, you will find yourself taking on that same spirit. Stay armored up.

Taken directly from the church's website about the choir:
"Starting each practice with prayer reinforces that principle. Even the rehearsal prior to the Sunday services are all closed in prayer as the choir asks the Lord to bless their music and anoint their songs for the service. “The great evangelist D.L. Moody found that the tender strains of the Gospel could open people’s hearts to the music of the soul,” Pastor Cymbala says, “and I find that the choir greatly facilitates the ministry that goes on here. In their own uniquely sincere and almost vulnerable way, some by not being trained singers, while others are coming from totally non-religious backgrounds, they are able to display an openness, a transparent ‘heartfeltness’ that opens up and triggers the same thing in other people.”

They PRACTICE!!!!! And with these practices, they have prayer and worship so that they can meditate on what their purpose is. This is what most of the music departments discussed in this thread are not doing.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline floaded27

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2010, 10:33:05 AM »
for the Brooklyn Tabernacle example, i find that a large part of it has to do with the church structure. I tend to find that with bigger churches like that each ministry is independent of one another, meaning you dont have the same people responsible for each ministry, so they can often operate regardless of what the others are doing. So when the choir needs to rehearse, it doesnt matter that the dance ministry is doing a performance somewhere else or the missions ministry is doing a drive on that same day. But when  you have a church where the same people over the choir and the core people that do the work, are the same ones that keep the dance ministry and missions ministry operational and functioning, you can see where the problem is. One ministry sacrifices for another because the same people are involved. And its NOT because people always want to be in charge of stuff and have egos, sometimes its out of necessity often because others wont/cant step up to the plate and the work still needs to be done.

In some churches, you are not allowed to be part of more than one ministry. But when you need to keep things operational, sometimes those restrictions cannot apply, and yes there will be sacrifices elsewhere.

So when people are overworked and overwhelmed its harder to have such structure. So i think theres more involved than one ministry prays and the other doesnt.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline floaded27

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2010, 10:48:53 AM »
Man I sooooo feel everything you said bro.  I'm not saying it's every church, but it definitely a lot of them.  I honestly believe it's a power issue.  Our churches (I should say clergy) have fallen victim to "popularity".  They want to control... The pastors/ministers/deacons like that feeling of being in charge and their roles being the most important in the church.  They are so afraid people will come for the music, but it's called the MUSIC MINISTRY!

this is not always the case though. My pastor isnt musically inclined at all, but the fact that all the time he's been at our church under our former pastor, we hadnt had a very well oiled machine that is a music ministry. So not only has he had to make due in spite of and adjust for all these years, since the majority of the churches we fellowship with have crappy music ministries, he really doesnt have a frame of reference. He does know that we are in better shape than some other churches he's been to, and i can testify to that, but he hasnt seen the possibilities of what we could become. Also I think he, like many other pastors, dont understand the full power of an organized music ministry because its NEVER been there. And a large part of our players have been on the beginner/intermediate level. Once they get to the next level, circumstances have them leaving. So part of it is skill level, we've never had all highly skilled musicians in place at the same time, so its hard for anybody at our church to know what that looks or sounds like. (I bet Brooklyn Tabernacle dont have that problem)
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline betnich

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2010, 10:54:21 AM »
To provide a contrast, let me ask this question: do you think Brooklyn Tabernacle has any problems with getting people together for practice? If you are unfamiliar with them, please take a moment, go on Youtube, type in their name and watch a video or two. So what is it that Carol Cymbala is doing so special the rest of us find hard to create within our music ministries? It's all about stated purpose and ground rules. We are focusing on the music ministry because this is a music oriented site, but the issues of discipline and order are present in every entity; where order and purpose are established, good results are produced; the lack thereof produces many of the outcomes being discussed in this thread. As an individual in the midst of a less than ideal situation, ask yourself, "is what I am experiencing indicative of what occurs throughout our ministry or is it isolated? If it is isolated, why is the same level of order and discipline not being applied to the music ministry as to other ministries?" Ultimately, if those who have the ability to impose order and discipline neglect to do so, you are in a very hard place, because there is nothing worse than apathy. Unless you find a way to spark people into caring, you will find yourself taking on that same spirit. Stay armored up.



[rant on]

Oh, I can feel you as far as control and preparation issues are concerned.  ::)

Yesterday was Youth Sunday at our church, youth choir was supposed to practice before service. I sat at the keyboard 30 min. before, only to be told that the kids were outside, playing on the Jolly Jumper (I joked under my breath about going outside and putting a knife through that thing). First Lady chased them into the kids' room for me, about 5 min before, and we barely had time to go over our songs before Pastor and a Deacon signaled us through the door to stop. We ended up starting 5 min. late (and I am NEVER late, even though this church is famous for half the congregation dragging in 20-30 min after service starts), and the kids did all right, but...

    Have come to the conclusion that the best thing for me is to pray, prepare the best I can, and to LET IT GO and STEP BACK - some people may see the good example and follow, but IMO there will always be some Knuckleheads in the house...

[rant off]

Offline browntree

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2010, 11:16:59 AM »
To provide a contrast, let me ask this question: do you think Brooklyn Tabernacle has any problems with getting people together for practice? If you are unfamiliar with them, please take a moment, go on Youtube, type in their name and watch a video or two. So what is it that Carol Cymbala is doing so special the rest of us find hard to create within our music ministries? It's all about stated purpose and ground rules. We are focusing on the music ministry because this is a music oriented site, but the issues of discipline and order are present in every entity; where order and purpose are established, good results are produced; the lack thereof produces many of the outcomes being discussed in this thread. As an individual in the midst of a less than ideal situation, ask yourself, "is what I am experiencing indicative of what occurs throughout our ministry or is it isolated? If it is isolated, why is the same level of order and discipline not being applied to the music ministry as to other ministries?" Ultimately, if those who have the ability to impose order and discipline neglect to do so, you are in a very hard place, because there is nothing worse than apathy. Unless you find a way to spark people into caring, you will find yourself taking on that same spirit. Stay armored up.

You are right...I'll give you that much.  Lack of structure is  a systemic problem that shows up in every single ministry of our church.  The major breakdown is with our MOM.  He's been in place for about 1.5 years now, and the person who was in place before had two things this guy doesn't... 1) a true desire to set an atmosphere of praise 2) a loving spirit.  He is an "average" musician, if that. And so as not to feel threatened, every musician he's brought in has been equal or below his skill level. The thing is most of the musicians wouldn't be bad if they would just go home and practice!  Sitting down at the piano on Sunday and  playing wrong notes is unacceptable!!!  UNACCEPTABLE! Well for me, because evidently folk at church don't know the difference.   

The shocker to me like ddwilkens said...you try to have an honest, Christ-like discussion about improvement and you wind up getting preached about on Sundays...lol... It's pride, envy, and control... playing out over and over again...

But when  you have a church where the same people over the choir and the core people that do the work, are the same ones that keep the dance ministry and missions ministry operational and functioning, you can see where the problem is. One ministry sacrifices for another because the same people are involved.

So when people are overworked and overwhelmed its harder to have such structure. So i think theres more involved than one ministry prays and the other doesnt.

This leads to straight burn-out!  At one point we had close to 1000 members but you saw the same 100 folk doing all the work. 

Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

Offline jonesl78

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Re: I really don't know what to do...
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2010, 12:05:12 PM »
this is not always the case though. My pastor isnt musically inclined at all, but the fact that all the time he's been at our church under our former pastor, we hadnt had a very well oiled machine that is a music ministry. So not only has he had to make due in spite of and adjust for all these years, since the majority of the churches we fellowship with have crappy music ministries, he really doesnt have a frame of reference. He does know that we are in better shape than some other churches he's been to, and i can testify to that, but he hasnt seen the possibilities of what we could become. Also I think he, like many other pastors, dont understand the full power of an organized music ministry because its NEVER been there. And a large part of our players have been on the beginner/intermediate level. Once they get to the next level, circumstances have them leaving. So part of it is skill level, we've never had all highly skilled musicians in place at the same time, so its hard for anybody at our church to know what that looks or sounds like. (I bet Brooklyn Tabernacle dont have that problem)

Bingo!! 
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