I really don't know what to do...

[ddwilkins]

.... 

The shocker to me like ddwilkens said...you try to have an honest, Christ-like discussion about improvement and you wind up getting preached about on Sundays...lol... It's pride, envy, and control... playing out over and over again...

This leads to straight burn-out!  At one point we had close to 1000 members but you saw the same 100 folk doing all the work. 

Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

I'm not one for being disobedient, but when this type of stuff comes up, it pisses me off. I feel that pastors are trying to throw the word at you so that they can avoid the real problem. My mother tried that with me during my college years. She told me that I should come home every weekend to play at my home church, which was 1 1/2 hours away driving. I told her I couldn't all the time because I would either be studying, visit a local church with friends, or just didn't feel like driving home. She told me that I should have faith and that God would reward me in my grades. I told her, "faith without works is dead." I never heard anything from her again. So, I'm trying to refrain from just being very outspoken with my Pastor in regards to our current situation because, I don't fluff up my words. I call a spade, a spade. I'm straight forward with my conversations. So, sometimes it comes off as being harsh or disrespectful. I pray all of our situations get fixed.

[phbrown]

Sorry to hear that you decided it is best that you leave Browntree.

I empathize with your situation and I hope and pray that you find a place where you can happily praise God.

[kevmove02]

This is probably not sit well with many people, but ministries that are not established on foundation of structure, discipline, focus will always suffer the very outcomes that many of you have expressed. There is no logical reason for us to place people who are not trained into any staff position in church. They don't have to be trained prior to being appointed, but their very next task should always be training, regardless of the sacrifice. Rather expound on the subject here, Evangelical Training Association has an excellent book called "Biblical Leadership". I challenge anyone to find a biblical example of someone being annointed, but never trained. Whether its Moses in Pharoahs court, The 3 Hebrew boys in Nebuchadnezzar II court or Saul of Tarshish, God always made provision for their training and development. A music ministry that is a hotbed of discord and disarray is a clear indicator that true, biblical mentorship and leadership is not present. As I said before, you can decide to walk away or you can realize that you are there for a different assignment, like making sure one person gets through this experience so they can fulfill their purpose. Music is the one place where the Church should the greatest degree of unity, yet we often fail at the task, because the idea of sacrificing my one sound for the sake of making greater one is contrary to the individualism of our culture. Think of all the egos involved in assembling a symphony orchestra, yet they all perform together because they understand their purpose: to make one beautiful, emotive sound. Oh that the Church would embrace this ideal! One Voice, lifted up to One God, directed by One Spirit, to glorify Our One Lord and Savior!

[jonesl78]

This is probably not sit well with many people, but ministries that are not established on foundation of structure, discipline, focus will always suffer the very outcomes that many of you have expressed. There is no logical reason for us to place people who are not trained into any staff position in church. They don't have to be trained prior to being appointed, but their very next task should always be training, regardless of the sacrifice. Rather expound on the subject here, Evangelical Training Association has an excellent book called "Biblical Leadership". I challenge anyone to find a biblical example of someone being annointed, but never trained. Whether its Moses in Pharoahs court, The 3 Hebrew boys in Nebuchadnezzar II court or Saul of Tarshish, God always made provision for their training and development. A music ministry that is a hotbed of discord and disarray is a clear indicator that true, biblical mentorship and leadership is not present. As I said before, you can decide to walk away or you can realize that you are there for a different assignment, like making sure one person gets through this experience so they can fulfill their purpose. Music is the one place where the Church should the greatest degree of unity, yet we often fail at the task, because the idea of sacrificing my one sound for the sake of making greater one is contrary to the individualism of our culture. Think of all the egos involved in assembling a symphony orchestra, yet they all perform together because they understand their purpose: to make one beautiful, emotive sound. Oh that the Church would embrace this ideal! One Voice, lifted up to One God, directed by One Spirit, to glorify Our One Lord and Savior!

Yeah, I can relate to this. At the very least, a church should be able to come up with $25/ week for little johnny to take piano lessons and send music leaders to other churches to study with their music staff. Then, bring all that good training back home. 

[browntree]

As I said before, you can decide to walk away or you can realize that you are there for a different assignment, like making sure one person gets through this experience so they can fulfill their purpose.

Expand upon this a bit more kevmove02...you have said it a couple times, but surely you aren't implying that one should stay in a position for an indefinite amount of time.  So I'm not too sure what point you are trying to drive home.

I wouldn't call what I'm doing "walking away" by any means.  I have tried to affect change for at least 5 years, after playing for 10.  More to the point, I've tried to do it by example and through biblical teaching.   So at what point do you think one should move on?  Not even God-give assignments are indefinite.  I think I've put in a yeoman's work. 



Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

[ddwilkins]

This is probably not sit well with many people, but ministries that are not established on foundation of structure, discipline, focus will always suffer the very outcomes that many of you have expressed. There is no logical reason for us to place people who are not trained into any staff position in church. They don't have to be trained prior to being appointed, but their very next task should always be training, regardless of the sacrifice. Rather expound on the subject here, Evangelical Training Association has an excellent book called "Biblical Leadership". I challenge anyone to find a biblical example of someone being annointed, but never trained. Whether its Moses in Pharoahs court, The 3 Hebrew boys in Nebuchadnezzar II court or Saul of Tarshish, God always made provision for their training and development. A music ministry that is a hotbed of discord and disarray is a clear indicator that true, biblical mentorship and leadership is not present. As I said before, you can decide to walk away or you can realize that you are there for a different assignment, like making sure one person gets through this experience so they can fulfill their purpose. Music is the one place where the Church should the greatest degree of unity, yet we often fail at the task, because the idea of sacrificing my one sound for the sake of making greater one is contrary to the individualism of our culture. Think of all the egos involved in assembling a symphony orchestra, yet they all perform together because they understand their purpose: to make one beautiful, emotive sound. Oh that the Church would embrace this ideal! One Voice, lifted up to One God, directed by One Spirit, to glorify Our One Lord and Savior!

You are right, these churches need structure.

[floaded27]

u know what i've found out.... people have a hard time investing in things that they cant see or discern the results! The "infallible" arguments of "i dont see the difference, so why am i paying for this" "why pay this much for this? doesnt that cheaper one do the same thing" "what is the point of me giving up my time for this" etc. We all do it in different areas of life. And sometimes it DOES keep us from wasting resources. But close-mindedness often have us missing opportunities to enhance and expand ourselves because of a lack of understanding.

I think some people are taking it personally. But think about something. Do you ever notice that most of the churches (thats the case in my experience) that have a crappy music ministry have a crappy sound system? You ever been to a church with brand new pews, brand new offering table and offering plates, top of the line podium, new chandeliers, but as soon as someone get in the mic and start talking they sound like they're at the end of long hallway under a stack of mattresses? Two organs that dont work while the keyboardist sittin at a casio and not a good one (one of the ones they sell at Target)? Drums sound like they're skinned with paper plates? Oh, but the place LOOK nice. U know why because they can SEE the difference. But what they HEAR they cant justify making the investment. And music and sound goes hand in hand.

So when the person/people who manage the resources can understand what the money is going for and can assess the benefits, more than likely the investment will be made if its reasonable/affordable. But if they dont understand and cant make that assessment, the question will be "why do we need to do that?".

So when you get things like "pay for a music director to get training" the question will be "what he need training for? he can figure it out". if u say "little johnny need lessons" u get "he's doing fine. he'll get it soon if he keeps practicing"

So i think the question is how do you get others that dont understand (and some of them are PART OF THE MUSIC MINISTRY) to see that the investment (of both money and time) is necessary and worthwhile? Just saying "because it is" is NOT enough.

[browntree]

Excellent points floaded27...


Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

[phbrown]

u know what i've found out.... people have a hard time investing in things that they cant see or discern the results! The "infallible" arguments of "i dont see the difference, so why am i paying for this" "why pay this much for this? doesnt that cheaper one do the same thing" "what is the point of me giving up my time for this" etc. We all do it in different areas of life. And sometimes it DOES keep us from wasting resources. But close-mindedness often have us missing opportunities to enhance and expand ourselves because of a lack of understanding.

I think some people are taking it personally. But think about something. Do you ever notice that most of the churches (thats the case in my experience) that have a crappy music ministry have a crappy sound system? You ever been to a church with brand new pews, brand new offering table and offering plates, top of the line podium, new chandeliers, but as soon as someone get in the mic and start talking they sound like they're at the end of long hallway under a stack of mattresses? Two organs that dont work while the keyboardist sittin at a casio and not a good one (one of the ones they sell at Target)? Drums sound like they're skinned with paper plates? Oh, but the place LOOK nice. U know why because they can SEE the difference. But what they HEAR they cant justify making the investment. And music and sound goes hand in hand.

So when the person/people who manage the resources can understand what the money is going for and can assess the benefits, more than likely the investment will be made if its reasonable/affordable. But if they dont understand and cant make that assessment, the question will be "why do we need to do that?".

So when you get things like "pay for a music director to get training" the question will be "what he need training for? he can figure it out". if u say "little johnny need lessons" u get "he's doing fine. he'll get it soon if he keeps practicing"

So i think the question is how do you get others that dont understand (and some of them are PART OF THE MUSIC MINISTRY) to see that the investment (of both money and time) is necessary and worthwhile? Just saying "because it is" is NOT enough.

This is what I was attempting to say in my first post on this thread.

Basically a lot of times people won't listen to you if it keeps coming from you. So just bring someone else in whose opinion they respect and have them say it.

[browntree]

This is what I was attempting to say in my first post on this thread.

Basically a lot of times people won't listen to you if it keeps coming from you. So just bring someone else in whose opinion they respect and have them say it.

You are right... and to add to your point, them cheapskates at my church won't bring in someone else to deliver an opinion.  They did it once with the A/V.  The guy came in and said "you guys have spiritual issues along with the technical ones..."
Guess what happened???

Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16
 

[dhagler]

Do you ever notice that most of the churches (thats the case in my experience) that have a crappy music ministry have a crappy sound system?

We have a state-of-the-art sound system, but (1) received little training on how to use it; (2) the ones who operate it are not receptive to constructive criticism; (3) the system had a major mechanical problem but the folks holding the purse strings won't spend the money to have it fixed properly. I stopped going through the house a long time ago because I felt I could control my sound better from my amp.

    Have come to the conclusion that the best thing for me is to pray, prepare the best I can, and to LET IT GO and STEP BACK - some people may see the good example and follow

+1. That's where I finally had to go. I believe very strongly that prayer works, because in my situation some things have indeed gotten better.

[phbrown]

The guy came in and said "you guys have spiritual issues along with the technical ones..."

WOW! LOL sorry I don't mean to laugh but wow ...

[browntree]

WOW! LOL sorry I don't mean to laugh but wow ...

Lol...it's ok to laugh...trust me I have.  We brought the head of A/V in from one of the local churches.  He managed a sound team of about 15 people at a fairly large church.  He was of the opinion the equipment was good.  However the relationships between A/V and the choirs were terrible.  And, the training of sound people was definitely needed.  His point which I totally agree with is that A/V is supposed to be a tool that enhances praise and worship...not stifles it.  Again, A/V was another form of control at our church.  What I found so funny was that the preacher's mikes were ALWAYS working and louder than anything else.  The choir members would beg and plead through rehearsal to have the lead vocal gain increased only to not be able to hear on Sunday still.   But everybody could hear the pastor though... smh...

Browntree


And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy. I Chronicles 15:16

[Johnny B.]

     I'm new to the LGM scene and it's quite upsetting to hear you guys talk about what others are not doing. God have BLESSED alot of you guys to play and us newbies are trying to get to where you all are. Nobody's perfect, but sometimes we have to remember to look in the mirror. Put GOD first and stop running away. Sometimes you'll find yourself in an messed up world trying to get back to where you started. Everyboy can't be a hero. I hope I did not step on anybody toes. Sometimes the truth hurts, but think about before you respond. I'm hear to get some knowledge from you pros. All the post that I read, tell me to never quit, but when you run from one Church to Church #10, then what is that. I'm sorry for this response, but I just don't want to read about what others can't do. This makes me feel that a musician may leave due to my shortcomings and won't stay around to work with me. God Bless!!!!!

[phbrown]

You are not stepping on anyone toes. And you are right to a certain extent but based on what was presented in this thread (which granted is only one side) sometimes the best thing to do is to separate.



Matthew 10:14
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.


No hard feelings, just sometimes as a musician (especially a paid musician) you will not get along with everyone  and whether than constantly fight week after week reduce the stress in your life and find a group of Christians you can work with.

[Johnny B.]

    Thanks phBrown and SketchMan3 for words. After I wrote the message, I thought about what each and everyone might have been feeling. I too may find myself in the same boat without a paddle. Once again, I thank you both. I love this site!!!!!!

[SavnBass]

The issue as presented here was not poor musicianship but poor musicianship without making efforts to improve. All of us were worse musicians than we are now at some point.

[Musicman_00]

After reading the posts and contemplating my thoughts. We all have been in this situation at one point or another and some if not all of us work in more than one aspect of ministry in one way or another.

THIS IS MY DISCLAIMER... THIS IS MY SITUATION AND HOW I HANDLED IT.

From my experience that I am currently dealing with I have chosen to go on a sabbatical from playing at church. I still play but I grew tired of the organist/keyboardist blasting through the PA system. The reason we got it was because to level everyone out because the musicians were too loud. I would play at a moderate level and I was told to turn my bass up. My reply was I can't hear you! It's too loud! He said fine do whatever you want. So I did. I focused more on being a better Christian. How can the blind lead the blind lest they fall in a ditch. I can fall in a ditch on my own. I don't need help. So I still play but I refuse to blast my bass. I had a lot of pet peeves. The drummer NEVER came to rehearsals but still played on Sunday and didn't know the song but couldn't keep a steady tempo so now I can't get into the song for worrying about the song speeding up! The volume thing. I've gone to my Pastor who is also the organist father...........and voiced my concerns. Usually I would hear "But your playing enhances the service." So now it's the guilt trip. If I don't play then the service isn't the same. So nobody wanted to listen to what I had to say but they had answers. It is very frustrating. But in all things I give thanks. It's hard but only what I do for Christ will last (where ever you do it.)

Every now and then I'll go visit another church where I don't have to play just to regroup on what's important. Glorifying God. Sometimes I have to step away. Some people don't like it. 

My only advice I'm going to give here is this.

Get in the Word and get as close to God as you can. One can never be close enough.

Love y'all

P.S. Didn't mean to rant. I'm still dealing with this. Please pray for me and with me.

[malthumb]

Johnny B.,

Welcome to LGM!

The frustration voiced by many in this thread is NOT directed towards beginning musicians, such as you describe yourself.  We have ALL been beginners at some point in time or another.  The frustration seems to be around situations where lack of effort and poor practices are tolerated for the sake of just avoiding change, conflict, or growth.  Many of us who have experience have been in situations where one or more of the musicians and/or church officials ignore suggestions that would help the music service improve.

This is not to pick on beginners.  You'll probably not find a venue more friendly towards beginning musicians than the church.

When musicians take suggestions to turn volume down as an insult, rather than a solution to solving an imbalance, that's a problem.  When musicians assume that they don't need to make it to rehearsal because they're good enough to pick it up on the fly, that's a problem.  When people change the lineup of songs just before or during the service, that's a problem.  These things can become very frustrating to a serious musician.  At some point in time, people get fed up with having to deal with chaos that need not be and they walk.  Sometimes they walk to another location where the chaos isn't yet widespread, but then it develops......and they walk again.

[betnich]

The frustration seems to be around situations where lack of effort and poor practices are tolerated for the sake of just avoiding change, conflict, or growth.  Many of us who have experience have been in situations where one or more of the musicians and/or church officials ignore suggestions that would help the music service improve.

When musicians take suggestions to turn volume down as an insult, rather than a solution to solving an imbalance, that's a problem.  When musicians assume that they don't need to make it to rehearsal because they're good enough to pick it up on the fly, that's a problem.  When people change the lineup of songs just before or during the service, that's a problem.  These things can become very frustrating to a serious musician.  At some point in time, people get fed up with having to deal with chaos that need not be and they walk.  Sometimes they walk to another location where the chaos isn't yet widespread, but then it develops......and they walk again.

A lot of my frustrations as a church musician are political. People can't correct each other in a group rehearsal without a spirit of humility and teachability; iron sharpens iron. But when some are in leadership, minister's family or other 'untouchable' cliques, spiritual and musical growth is inhibited. This lack of commitment to excellence is sad but true in so many cases... IMO, a chaotic situation dishonors God...