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Author Topic: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna  (Read 28999 times)

blyempowered

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I'm interested to know why you feel this way.

I love this book and think it is really a classic book, but this book is very troubling to me. It makes me want to do further research on the topics discussed so far. If all of this proves to be true (particularly the historic aspects of how certain things came to be), wow, it's like I'll start asking more questions like how we get back to that place.

I don't want to jump ahead but based on reading chapter 2 it seems like the author is making the case that with Jesus being born, died and resurrected from the dead EVERYTHING connected to the Old Covenant/Judaic tradition is squashed and therefore nothing should reflect that (the classic debate of the role of the Old Testament in Christianity comes to play here).

To a certain extent, I agree with some of what he said, especially as it relates to the Temple. We actually did a series in Sunday School on the Temple and I had to teach from John 2 when Jesus says "destroy this temple and I'll raise it up in 3 days." While the Jews were thinking physical, Jesus was thinking spiritual.

But idk. I love this book but it's almost like "if I continue to stay in an establishment that is supposedly far from the biblical standard (according to this author), am I supporting the establishment?" Now he does have a book that is considered the sequel to this one called "Reimagining Church" which offers "solutions" to what he talks about in this book. I may get that book. But I'm also interested (as I said) in doing further research on what he talked about, particularly the historic origins of the things he talked about.

Sorry Bro. Brown for putting all this out, but I hope I answered the question...somewhat.....LOL!

And just to add to that, I just sense pragmatism and apathy among many in the body of Christ today as it pertains to the reform the church needs. Again, I agree with the author as it pertains to certain aspects of worship that have been taken away due to the increase preeminence of the building, yet I just believe that most people (and this is looking at many things that need changing in the faith today) believe that at the end of the day as long as souls are being saved and lives are changed, none of this stuff really matters. Do I agree with that thought? Idk.  :-\

blyempowered

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BH is a megachurch preacher. That's all I'll say.....LOL!

Offline lordluvr

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Ok Bennett, I see where you're coming from.  For me, the book does have the effect of making me question certain practices and realize that so much of what we do (in my church) is based on tradition and not necessarily scripture.  But, it doesn't compell me to abandon the current assembly and start from scratch.  Rather, it compels me to be a proponent for change, with regard to the things that don't add to the spiritual growth of the body.  Granted, there are things that we do that don't fit the mold of scripture but are still instrumental to the growth of the body.  For example, the men of the church have gotten together to go bowling in the past.  There is no scriptural precedent, but I see the importance of it.  Our brothers bonded, and more importantly, the younger guys felt like a part of the entire unit.  The end result, over time, was that there was more overall church participation on the part of all men. 

So, from the perspective of instigating change, I feel this is a good book.

blyempowered

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Ok Bennett, I see where you're coming from.  For me, the book does have the effect of making me question certain practices and realize that so much of what we do (in my church) is based on tradition and not necessarily scripture.  But, it doesn't compell me to abandon the current assembly and start from scratch.  Rather, it compels me to be a proponent for change, with regard to the things that don't add to the spiritual growth of the body.  Granted, there are things that we do that don't fit the mold of scripture but are still instrumental to the growth of the body.  For example, the men of the church have gotten together to go bowling in the past.  There is no scriptural precedent, but I see the importance of it.  Our brothers bonded, and more importantly, the younger guys felt like a part of the entire unit.  The end result, over time, was that there was more overall church participation on the part of all men. 

So, from the perspective of instigating change, I feel this is a good book.

You're right! Good way of looking at it!

blyempowered

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One thing that is interesting in chapter 2 is the mixed legacy of Constantine. Some view him in a positive light and some view him as a contributor of a lot of the stuff that happens in the church today.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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>:( I posted something in this thread yesterday and I don't see it. Ughhhhhh!!!!!
When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

blyempowered

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>:( I posted something in this thread yesterday and I don't see it. Ughhhhhh!!!!!
>:(

Offline lordluvr

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>:( I posted something in this thread yesterday and I don't see it. Ughhhhhh!!!!!
I was wondering why we haven't heard from you. 

blyempowered

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http://paganchristianity.org/pcguide.pdf

This website has discussion questions based on chapter. Just thought I'd share in case you was interested.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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@LL, I'm out of town and didn't really have a minute of down time. But I did post something brief the other day - or at least I thought I did. :(
When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

Offline sjonathan02

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http://paganchristianity.org/pcguide.pdf

This website has discussion questions based on chapter. Just thought I'd share in case you was interested.
>:( >:( >:(
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

blyempowered

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Offline lordluvr

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http://paganchristianity.org/pcguide.pdf

This website has discussion questions based on chapter. Just thought I'd share in case you was interested.

I haven't looked at the site, but doesn't it kinda defeat the purpose of having our own discussion?

blyempowered

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I haven't looked at the site, but doesn't it kinda defeat the purpose of having our own discussion?

Nope! We don't have to use that. It was just something I found.

blyempowered

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#thinkingaloud is the tradition of making the communion table a sacred object along with the pulpit a form of idolatry? Hmmm.

Offline phbrown

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Sorry Bro. Brown for putting all this out, but I hope I answered the question...somewhat.....LOL!

I understand where you are coming from. Thus far I am actually coming to the opposite answer but I will wait till we start the discussion on buildings

Offline phbrown

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#thinkingaloud is the tradition of making the communion table a sacred object along with the pulpit a form of idolatry? Hmmm.

I remember reading about a rift that formed between the west and the eastern othrodox church because of the use of symbols or something in history class ... but that was almost a decade ago and I don't remember the particulars but i do think it had something to do with worshiping symbols ... off to do some research

blyempowered

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I remember reading about a rift that formed between the west and the eastern othrodox church because of the use of symbols or something in history class ... but that was almost a decade ago and I don't remember the particulars but i do think it had something to do with worshiping symbols ... off to do some research

Interesting!

Offline phbrown

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ahh found it, it was the great schism of the east-west back in 1054 AD. while it was a minor point there was talk about Iconoclasm


Quote
This prohibition of a custom which had been in use since the beginning of Christianity, seems to have been inspired by a genuine desire to improve public morality, and received the support of the official aristocracy and a section of the clergy. A majority of the theologians and all the monks opposed these measures with uncompromising hostility, and in the western parts of the empire the people refused to obey the edict.

Wiki link

blyempowered

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ahh found it, it was the great schism of the east-west back in 1054 AD. while it was a minor point there was talk about Iconoclasm

Wiki link


Hmmm!

CS: Currently re-reading chapter 2 highlighting stuff that I would like to talk about in depth when it's time to discuss this chapter. I'm telling yall, enter chapter 2 at your own risk....SMH....LOL!
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