The number system "limits you?????"

[Ladyn]

Ok, I haven't been around here in a while, but I have been still learning. I have been quite irked the past month more than ever by a statement made by some really good musicians that I admire. One such musician makes this statement a lot on You tube.

It is this idea that the "number system" " limits what one can do to songs" (endings, turn arounds, intros, fillers) I believe this to be completely false!!!!

If it were not for the number system/music theory I would NOT be able to interpret what I hear nor what this one teacher in particular teaches!!! It has helped me to expand my vocabulary of harmonic devices!!!! I may not be able to actually execute everything I understand, but you give me enough time I can at least explain it to someone and do an ok job demonstrating it.  Having an organized structure of learning music (which does not equal rigidity) helps ME to understand so much easier!!!

I guess today I was just fed up!!!! I am NOT calling names at all, but I just had to get that off my chest. I am in a hurry, or else I would elaborate more. I do want to get others opinions on this.

 What do you think? Has learning the numbers/music theory limited you or put you in a box? How do you keep from putting every song into a box? How has learning music theory helped you? What are some ways we can be sure to NOT make every song sound alike?

Thanks you all!!

[GospelEngineer]

he number system will only limit you if all you play is the number system. The numbers have helped me breakdown and remember songs more easily. I would ask that go to show and explain what he means.

[gtrdave]

The numbers system doesn't limit anyone. A person's abilities do.

All the numbers system does is map out how a particular song should or could be played. If the song is open to interpretation then the numbers are simply there as a guideline or point of reference, not as law.

[GospelEngineer]

he number system will only limit you if all you play is the number system. The numbers have helped me breakdown and remember songs more easily. I would ask that go to show and explain what he means.

What I meant to say was:

The number system will only limit you if all you play is the number system. The numbers have helped me breakdown and remember songs more easily. I would ask that he show and explain what he means.

I gotta learn to proofread

[ltljake]

Maybe you could pm me a link, though I think I have an idea who it is.

[Mysteryman]

The number system in part was created so other musicians could follow each other musicially when playing together. Even if you come up with your own harmonies how would you explain what you are doing to someone else without some type of system. Even if the system is not numbers there is still a system behind it. We dont need sheet music but someone created it as a standard so ideas can be shared and communicated to others. I guarantee if the person is disregarding the number system they have created some system of their own. Someone will probably be saying the same thing about their system in a few years.

[dayspring]

I happen to love the number system as just another tool to expand your musical abilities. I especially love it for teaching my church band with a sax, trumpet, bass, keyboard players and drummers. When teaching a song, it's easy using the number system because when the keyboard and bass players are in, for example Bb, then, the sax player is in G, and the trumpet player in C. It's easier to give them all the numbers than to have to transpose the song to fit the key for each musician.

[Ladyn]

Thanks everyone for your input.

What I meant to say was:

The number system will only limit you if all you play is the number system. The numbers have helped me breakdown and remember songs more easily. I would ask that he show and explain what he means.

I gotta learn to proofread

When asked "how" I only get you only play the numbers! WHAT??? I get that if you never venture outside of just always playing the same type of chords or even never subbing chords you will be pretty stuck, but to say that the whole system keeps one from being creative is just plain WRONG!! That idea is getting into the heads of some younger players that are limited now because they DON'T know how to transpose a song! They heard ****** say on a video that they didn't need to learn them, so they don't!

Maybe you could pm me a link, though I think I have an idea who it is.

I don't want to attack anyone, and I believe this site does a good job of challenging this notion without actually calling them out. I bet you already know at least one of the people I am talking about.

[organman88]

I understand what the musician on Youtube is saying a lot of musicians just learn the number system but don't understand why things work or why this happens. People just know A minor is A, C and E but doesn't know why that happens. If all you go by is the number system say if you in C but you land on the 5 which is G how can you tell your person do a 2 5 1 in G but the 2 is major instead of minor. Also when most people use the number system they have their own chords they use to the number of the scale but that chord may not be in the song which limits your chord learning and playing the song! Music is a bigger picture the just the number system!

[organman88]

Thanks organman, for giving us some insight into the thought process that goes into making these types of claims.
Don't you use numbers to explain why that happens? 1, b3, 5? Or is that a different number system? Harmony is based on the relationship between the rhythms of vibration patterns of sound waves, and numbers are the simplest way to express those patterns.You say "The 2 is major". Pretty simple, I'd think.  Or let them use their ears and listen to it and figure it out for themselves. The number system facilitates ear learning.The number system facilitates individuality and re-interpretation, and yes, it's okay to use as many tools as you have at your disposal to learn music: Ears number system, sheet music, chord charts, tablature, whatever you have, try to use as much of it as is useful.

No problem we all here to learn! Well 1st the number system is a great way for musicians to communicate but when the music get more complex (outside of the scale then what?!!!!!! I don't know if you've ever heard of secondary dominants but we use them all the time! It's when you substitute a dom7 chord in a spot that doesn't normally belong! Everybody knows the 3 of the scale is minor but what if your passing to the 6 when normally change the 3 to major/dom7 how can you explain that to someone while playing....at least I can't lol also what if the chord is a 1 but the bass note is on the 3 how can you explain that to the band mid song!!!!! As far as chords, you do use numbers to spell out the chord I may have worded what I was trying to say wrong!

[Docdb04]

My opinion, the number system (along with additional music theory) helped me to understand what was happening.  It helped strengthen my ear and helped me to become creative with progressions.  I can hear something for the first time and know what is happening because of the number system.  Which helps alot in picking up songs, when you don't have "Perfect Pitch." 

[Ladyn]

"The number system facilitates individuality and re-interpretation, and yes, it's okay to use as many tools as you have at your disposal to learn music: Ears number system, sheet music, chord charts, tablature, whatever you have, try to use as much of it as is useful."
Sketchman: WELL SAID!!!!!

 

No problem we all here to learn! Well 1st the number system is a great way for musicians to communicate but when the music get more complex (outside of the scale then what?!!!!!! I don't know if you've ever heard of secondary dominants but we use them all the time! It's when you substitute a dom7 chord in a spot that doesn't normally belong! Everybody knows the 3 of the scale is minor but what if your passing to the 6 when normally change the 3 to major/dom7 how can you explain that to someone while playing....at least I can't lol also what if the chord is a 1 but the bass note is on the 3 how can you explain that to the band mid song!!!!! As far as chords, you do use numbers to spell out the chord I may have worded what I was trying to say wrong!

I understand that mid-song it is difficult to explain a secondary dominant, but I have seen it done just by calling out 2major, 6 major or something like that I have said 1 over 3 etc as we are rehearsing.

The issue I am taking up is the idea that in the process of learning how to play music one is limited if they learn the number system. Maybe everyone's idea of the number system is different. I don't think you learn the number system without learning a good amount of useful music theory. For example, I learned my scales, how to form chords, then progressions based on the number system. I was then taught how to get to each destination chord using various harmonic devices. I used my ear to identify chord quality as well. So when I got a lead sheet it may say 1-4-6-#5-6-3-4, but I still have to use my ear to know if those chords are major, minor, augmented, diminished, #5b9 etc. Then I can sub based on the melody note. It just goes on and on BECAUSE I learned the numbers. I can read music too, but my understanding did not come until I learned the number system!!!!

[Ladyn]

My opinion, the number system (along with additional music theory) helped me to understand what was happening.  It helped strengthen my ear and helped me to become creative with progressions.  I can hear something for the first time and know what is happening because of the number system.  Which helps alot in picking up songs, when you don't have "Perfect Pitch." 

EXACTLY!!!

[organman88]

I mean I'm not here to knock the number system if it works for you it works for you....in my experience with working with it, it can become a limitation, just because the bass player hits the 2 doesn't mean its a 2chord it can be an inversion and when you start to listen to figure out what chord it is you are no longer using the number system you are using your ear to find the chords! Each note in the scale/number system has a standard chord that goes with it 99% of the time however what happens when it changes, the number system ALONE is not the answer to get better once you master that move on to how things work because trust me 10 years down the road you'll be playing the same chords to each song that has a 514 progression in it and wondering why each song sound the same. The number system is just a guide to tell you what notes to play once you figure out the chord in relation to the tonic that's relative pitch!  And by me applying the Relative pitch, Perfect Pitch, knowing scale degrees all my chords in all inversions, my ear opens up to a new realm of hearing and I can learn songs and find people in literally seconds!

[Ladyn]

"just because the bass player hits the 2 doesn't mean its a 2chord it can be an inversion and when you start to listen to figure out what chord it is you are no longer using the number system you are using your ear to find the chords!"

But you used the number system as a point of reference! The basic progression is still gonna be a 2-5-1 even if I play rootless chords and even if I use a tritone sub for the 5! The direction of the progression is still the same.

"Each note in the scale/number system has a standard chord that goes with it 99% of the time however what happens when it changes, the number system ALONE is not the answer to get better once you master that move on to how things work"

Diatonically speaking you do have diatonic chords that go with each scale tone, BUT the number system does not teach you only diatonic chords!!! The number system (at least as I was taught) teaches you to even look at 11's 13's etc. numerically. An 11 chord is some voicing of the diatonic or altered 1-3-5-7-9 (2)-11(4) and I still use the numbers to point me to the where the basic progression is going!!! You are equating distinguishing individual chord quality with the ability to discern a progression that a song uses. How do you "move on to how things work"? I mean as I have matured as a musician I find that I still break down even the most challenging songs into a pattern that I can memorize and transpose into another key.

because trust me 10 years down the road you'll be playing the same chords to each song that has a 514 progression in it and wondering why each song sound the same.


That won't be because of learning and applying the number system. That will be because a person does not continue to explore all the possibilities of chords, voicings, substitution, rhythm, harmonic devices (all the in between stuff) in light of the number system.
I am just trying to understand the thinking here.

[organman88]

I think we are missing each others point! I agree with you if the song is in C then the 2 is D minor or D in the bass. Now-a-days people don't play a normal D minor (F A D F) on the 2 they add the b7 Bb and play a Bb add9 (F Bb C F/D) technically that's not a 2 chord its a b7 chord...just because the bass plays a certain note doesn't mean that's the root of the chord.....but from a general aspect where you're coming from I totally understand! Think of it as speaking slang and proper English!

[organman88]

If these are guys you look up to and your trying to be where they are take in everything they say don't question it just learn and apply...whatever they did worked!

[organman88]

Lol smh

[GospelEngineer]

I'm really just trying to figure out what this is all about. Honestly. I'm not trying to be confrontational at all. The only reason I'm asking all these questions is because you seem to be an expert and know what you're talking about. If you are very experienced with using the number system and all the other systems, it'd be nice to know. "lol smh" isn't really very helpful... >_>.(seriously, though, excessive use of exclamation marks is considered bad netiquette)

I always thought that the number system allowed for adding flats and sharps to the numbers to allow for moving outside of the scale. Is this not true?

Oh, also, I forgot to ask. You mentioned being unable to call out certain types of chords using the number system in a live setting. How would you approach this problem? Would you simply just call out the chord in it's normal symbol form in that case?

You can add sharps and flats to the numbers and when I call out numbers live I just call out the basic numbers, I don't have time to yell out 1b7#9 lol. If you have good musicians they'll add the extra stuff on their own.

As for that Bbadd9 over D I would just call that out as a 2 chord. Most keyboardists would play the voicing he described which is a Dmin7add6 without the root.

[Ladyn]

I think we are missing each others point! I agree with you if the song is in C then the 2 is D minor or D in the bass. Now-a-days people don't play a normal D minor (F A D F) on the 2 they add the b7 Bb and play a Bb add9 (F Bb C F/D) technically that's not a 2 chord its a b7 chord...just because the bass plays a certain note doesn't mean that's the root of the chord.....but from a general aspect where you're coming from I totally understand! Think of it as speaking slang and proper English!

The number system allows for that as well. For example: I have lead sheets that list the chords as 1-b5-4-1 b6-b7-1. So I play outside of the scale so to speak all of the time. The numbers tell me where to go. I am not sure you are getting what I am saying. Maybe we need to define what the number system teaches. Maybe that will help us not miss each other. The number system is not simply diatonic chords. I see progressions that are all over the place in terms of the key signature or scale using the relative minor or modes as the tonic center. The numbers do convey the b7's #5's any chromaticism you want to throw in. I am not sure again how that ability to understand and apply this information is limiting. I am not trying to be combative at all either. I am simply trying to understand where learning the number system limits a person. I would like to understand what I am missing or how I am not moving on to learn how things work.

If these are guys you look up to and your trying to be where they are take in everything they say don't question it just learn and apply...whatever they did worked!

That is the point. They can't explain what they are doing. I have to look at their hands and tell them they are playing a Bbm13. Then I figure out why that works at that instance using.... tada the number system! One teacher actually spells out the chords, but if I did not know the number system I wouldn't be able to apply that to all 12 keys. If I am a beginner and all I see is someone giving me note for note the chords, then I won't learn HOW to do that myself. I will have to parrot him or her. The number system allows us to really get down into what is going on and how it is constructed in a systematic way so that we can come up with our own unique, creative, inspired sound. I think questioning advice that will eventually cripple a beginner is wise and necessary.