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Author Topic: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?  (Read 8553 times)

Offline fenderjazz

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« on: April 18, 2005, 12:20:10 PM »
What's up everybody?

Lately I've been wondering if gospel music is too worldly. I understand that many of today's artists want to find the most effective way to reach people and I'm not knocking anyone. However, I wonder is God pleased when His music is barely distinguishable from an ordinary RnB record. I'm not just referring to contemporary gospel but most of the old hymns as well. It seem like most of our music is a variation of different genres of secular music. The hymns sound like the blues and ragtime then the contemporary stuff sounds like RnB and jazz. I believe that we can create a music more compelling than anything in the world without having to sound so much like the world. Where do you all think we should draw the line in how gospel music sounds? If the world can create so many types of music, each with its own distinction we should be able to do so as well.

kadman92

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2005, 12:36:11 PM »
Music is Music.... it has no lyrics.  I understand familiarity with secular R&B and HipHop can stir up back in the day thoughts.  But if we can successfully turn the music around and use it for the kindom I say go for it.  Lets have a RED LIGHT party for JESUS.  Lets get Giggy for Jesus.  Just cause we're christian don't mean our music has to be stuffy and sound as far from secular music as it posibly can.

Offline DuvalsLilJohnLumpkin

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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2005, 01:53:22 PM »
Christian musicians should not recycle themes from the WORLD whether they came from the church or not. The reason is because its already been tainted. Example: Making your clean clothes dirty, and putting them back with the clean clothes. If the clothes had minds of their own, would the clean begin to question themselves because the unclean now dwells with them? The bible says let there be a difference BETWEEN clean and unclean. And I am fully aware that I am speaking against something that has been excepted by some mainstream gospel artist and musicians, but HOLINESS is still right. We have a connection from on high which no other style of music carries. That's why gospel artist and musicians can sing and play many different stlyes. But, have you ever noticed that no matter how hard some secular artist try, they never make it in gospel music like they did in the world. Why? When you answer this question, you will then answer why licks and loops shouldn't be taken from the world and put in gospel music.
John 'Lil John" Lumpkin

Offline uriahsmusic

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a can of worms well worth opening!..MY OFFICIAL OPINION!
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2005, 06:52:31 PM »
:D [/b]

Spiritfingers

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2005, 11:16:45 PM »
Fender,

You a trip man!  You know fingers has something to say!  Actually I don't see my post about the Holy Spirit.  Somebody made a good point though...No matter how the "secular artist"  try to do Gospel, they'll never accomplish it because the gospel is not only the good news which it is commonly referred as but is actually the Good news of Jesus Christ.  The Holy Spirit annointing is what it takes to destroy yokes and those who are under the influence of demonic force will never be able to testify to the goodness of Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, while I heard someone say what the bible speaks about as clean and unclean and I'm not going to get into whether that's old or new testament.  Fact is...Jesus Christ and the work he did on the cross was a work of grace.  The Apostle Paul spent 13 books (the Pauline Epistles) trying to get the Gentiles and the Jews to understand that Jesus Christ died for the unity of the believers.  Paul actually had Timothy circumcized even though he preached against practicing the law.  You ask, what is Finger talking about and what does this have to do with gospel music.

Romans 14, Paul encourages elder saints not to complex young believers with what God has revealed to them.  It's a tragedy but we all do it!  We place the burden of what the Holy Spirit is dealing with us about and make it someone else's burden.  If people respond to our conviction without being instructed by the Holy Spirit, then they're just practicing religion, because it's not a labor of love.  

Fender,

I would say that God is dealing with you about this thing and that's outstanding!  You should seek him as to the answer, because you love him and want to please him.  However, I would encourage you to refrain from opening yourself up, like this because you'll hear something and not be lead by the Spirit but you'll be lead by someone's flesh, even mines.  Romans 8:14 As many as are lead by the Spirit of God, are called the sons of God.  He's dealing with you and you're in an awesome place.  The reason why I caution you on this is because we all have different opinions as you will see... but the Kingdom of God is not about right or wrong, does or don't, good or evil, it's about righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Romans 14:17)  Now, do what you need to do in order to maintain these three!  

Once again, I didn't mean to give you all my doctoral dissertation but, I'm a teacher long before I'm a bassist.  If you would like to discuss more in detail, let me know, if you don't, I still love you man and I pray that God get the glory of your life.  After all, IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM ANYWAY!


Fingers!

Offline B3Wannabe

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2005, 01:17:48 AM »
Quote
Christian musicians should not recycle themes from the WORLD whether they came from the church or not. The reason is because its already been tainted.



If that's the case then we might as well go back to singing hymns because that's what the jazz and bebop musicians did years ago. That Hezekiah Walker cd that you like or that 1970 Shirley Caesar cd would be devil's music if you take it back 100 years! I say ask the people who the music ministers too if it was to worldly for them.

Music is going to change whether we like it or not and God's music is no different. We won't be able to contain God's music into parameters that we've decided are acceptable. I think songwriters and musicians have a big responsibility when they take on that job. I feel that when we write music we're essentially becoming preachers and teachers, so if we steer someone wrong with out message (and we know it), God will hold us accountable for all those people that it affected. So when we add secular music into our playing and the intent is to stir the crowd, we're teaching young musicians that it's ok to do that, steering them wrong.

Offline BBoy

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2005, 05:30:16 AM »
Can I give 2 cents?

The Bible commands us in the Book of Romans not to judge another's household servant, because it is to his Own Master that the servant stands or falls.

The Book of Romans gives us the example of judging days. One man judges a certain day as more holy than another. Another man judges every day alike.

If a man observes a certain day, unto the LORD does he observe it. If another man doesn't observe that day, unto the LORD doth he not observe it.

It also gives the example of eating meats and herbs. Some could only eat herbs. Others could eat meats. Paul said that if you can eat meat, don't judge someone who can't because unto the LORD do they eat those herbs.

And those who eat only herbs, don't judge someone who doesn't serve you. They are not your servant. Unto the LORD do they eat meat.  

Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. That is what the Bible says.

Now, if a person can't play contemporary gospel, then no one can say that they are bound and need freedom from whatever. They are not your servant. Unto the LORD do they refuse to play contemporary gospel.

IF another person can play contemporary gospel and play it unto the LORD, then no one call them carnal. Unto the LORD do they play it. They are not your servant, so let them be fully convinced in their own mind.

I know of some very gifted musicians who play only gospel but they have a certain contemporary feel. I learn a lot from them; they are a blessing.

Let them ask their own pastor, who is ultimately responsible for the services and the teaching of their own people.

Just my two cents.

Be Blessed.
Joshua 1: 7, 8

Offline Perfessor

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2005, 07:07:03 AM »
In my staid, United Methodist Church there are four old guys, well they are older than me, who played " When the Saints Come Marching In" down the Isle with four horns blaring. It was very light hearted and made everyone's day. A year later the young organ/piano player we have was studying for a doctorate! in piano and played the same ragtime song he was to play for his test for the church to surprise the pastor, who smiled and laughed out loud at the song. These tuned out to be very light hearted and intimate, friendly moments.

Offline B3Wannabe

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 08:55:53 AM »
@Bboy: I like that. That's good advice or should I say....good scripture?

Offline uriahsmusic

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just my opinion!
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 09:44:22 AM »
MUSIC IS NOT JUST MUSIC.....AS A PRODUCER I KNOW THAT MUCH OF THE COMMERCIAL MUSIC TODAY IS CREATED TO BRING OUT A PERSONS SEXUALTY...GETTING THE GROOVE JUST SO....SO THAT YOU WILL MOVE A CERTAIN WAY....THESE THEMES ARE IMPOSED UPON THE PUBLIC BY PEOPLE WHO GENERALL LIVE BY AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STANDARD THAN WE DO!
.....EVEN THE OLD SCHOOL GOSPEL WAS JUST BLUES!....MANY OF THE MELODIES THAT WE SING TODAY AS GOSPEL TUNES WERE BAR SONGS OF THE PAST....
....THE GOSPEL WE CALL TRADITIONAL WAS PLAYED THE SAME WAY BLUES WAS PLAYED BACK IN THE DAY...

YOU SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE MUSIC OF THE DAY BECAUSE WE USE THE MUSICIANS OF THE DAY....SO THE MUSIC CHANGES ACCORDINGLY!

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE MUSIC...IT IS WHAT THE MUSIC IDENTIFIES WHEN IT IS PLAYED!....UNLIKE IN TIMES PAST THE MUSIC AND THE PERFORMANCE AND THE MOTIVE OF TODAYS MUSIC IS PURPOSELY SEXUAL....AND BECAUSE IT IS SO OBVIOUSLY COPIED FROM CONTEMPORARY R&B AND HIPHOP WHICH IS DIRECTLY ASSOCIATED WITH SEX, VIOLENCE AND BASICALLY UNCHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR...
IT TAKES ON AN EXTRA AIR OF INAPPROPRIATENESS.

SO WHAT DO YOU DO……
I THINK THAT THE OLDER MUSIC CAME FROM A DAY WHEN THE TIMES WERE MORE INNOCENT (INTENT WISE) AND THERE IS NO WAY TO CONSTRUE THAT MUSIC AS WORLDLY TODAY.
SO STICK TO THE OLD TIME WAY….

IF YOU PLAY THE MUSIC AND BOOTIES START SHAKIN LIKE IN A CLUB…YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG MUSIC…

IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOSPEL SONG THAT CAN BE TAKEN TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE…YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG MUSIC….

DOES IS MENTION JESUS?...GOD…HOLY SPIRIT….IF IT DOESN’T YOU SHOULD WONDER WHY!

IF THE MUSIC OBVIOUSLY ILLISITS ANYTHING THAT IS UNCHRISTIAN THEN YOU SHOULD BEWARE OF THE APPEARENC OF EVIL….(NOT WORTH IT)

I CAN GO ON AND ON…BUT ONE THING THAT I CAN PROMISE YOU!
THE CHRISTIAN MUSIC INDUSTRY IS BEING RUN BY FOLKS WHO WANT MONEY!...AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT YOUR SALVATION…SO BEWARE!

Offline LadyWiz

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2005, 11:26:09 AM »
Quote from: BBoy

If a man observes a certain day, unto the LORD does he observe it. If another man doesn't observe that day, unto the LORD doth he not observe it.

It also gives the example of eating meats and herbs. Some could only eat herbs. Others could eat meats. Paul said that if you can eat meat, don't judge someone who can't because unto the LORD do they eat those herbs.

And those who eat only herbs, don't judge someone who doesn't serve you. They are not your servant. Unto the LORD do they eat meat.  

Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. That is what the Bible says.



Amen, BBoy ~ you always have something worthwhile (the WORD) to say   :wink:

Offline Divinecontroller

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Amen
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2005, 12:55:34 PM »
We should all be led by the Spirit and when there is something being played inappropriate then you get that feeling in your soul. I do want to point out one thing that you said, that Gospel is just blues, actually I believe it is the other way around. Gospel was there before blues and when gospel musicians and singers were influenced to sing outside of church venues, they took what GOD taught them and applied it to what they were doing.

Today's music (most) is purely unadulterated sex material. There was a time when people took the music and melodies that were divinely inspired and used them to praise GOD or at least to convey their feelings in a tasteful way. I do concur that music is a form of expression that is used to say what you feel melodically, So tasteful music I can still listen to and appreciate, (even if it is not "Gospel") if it is respectful and tasteful. But nowadays how often does that happen?

A lot of Gospel songs don't mention the Lord or any relationship with him because they are trying to reach a certain audience. I believe that if GOD is drawing them, then they will be reached without a compromise of integrity. But that's how people are, they have turned their intentions from pleasing GOD to trying to please themselves.  :lol:

Spiritfingers

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2005, 09:04:54 PM »
Guys,
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHECK THIS OUT BUT GOT TO WWW.EXMINISTRIES.COM

ORDER THE DVD AND LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK!

ELDER CRAIG HAS A MAKES SOME GOOD POINTS ON THE SUBJECT BUT STILL IT'S TO THE INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS LEVEL OF FAITH!

Offline JoashStilltheman

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2005, 09:17:31 AM »
I had a raised a similar question in the Piano room but in this case it was " is it right for gospel musicians to copy secular songs" where you find musicians taking some mainstream song and changing the lyrics to make is a gospel song.

Well I would say that such questions are always misunderstood as judging others or adopting a "holier than thou" attitude. But it's not the case. We all want to do what is pleasing to God otherwise we could be wasting our time doing things for Him while He does not take pleasure in them.

I'd also say it's pretty hard to draw a line to what gospel music should sound like. We need to realize that musical instruments have become modernized. David in the bible used a harp which is more like piano in this case I think. But still guitar is also a stringed instrument and that's why we use it. You can produce different styles with these two. It's true that traditional gospel sounds like the old time blues.

Like Bboy said, the attitude of the heart is most important. But also we should take into consideration that we do not step on other people's toes with our music. The safest way is to be original. God is a creator and we should follow His footsteps.
Joash....still the man

Offline T-Block

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2005, 10:51:24 AM »
uriahsmusic wrote:

Quote
MUSIC IS NOT JUST MUSIC


What do you mean music is not just music?  Music is just music.  The way you feel about a certain beat is purely personal.  I can hear certain music and feel happy, while others can hear that same music and get sleepy.  You can't say that just because you think a certain beat makes you think about sex that others are going to feel that way.  You have to get that statement across by adding words that talk about sex.  I totally disagree with you and anybody else who feels like music is not just music.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline Divinecontroller

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Well
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2005, 12:04:10 PM »
I agree to an extent with Uriah that music (in the sense of notes and chords ) is just music, it's when you put the lyrics to the music that you shape the presentation. Kindda like cooking food, when you cook it there is a preparation process but when you present the food if it is all slopped together with no garnishments then your attitude and acceptance can change toward the dish (unless it's something your grandma or mama made, then it don't matter) :)

There are some beats that I have heard though that just don't seem to represent any type of gospel or praise mood. But once again that's how I feel and it is usually because it is all ready associated with something that is not righteous at all. I believe music is divinely inspired and what you do with it after you are inspired with it is your responsibility. We have to take a responsibility as musicians to be led by GOD and his Holy Spirit. Lyrics and words are separate in a whole lot of instances. You can play some chords to some secular music in a particular situation or mood and I don't believe it to be offensive.

I keep seeing people post that Gospel sounds like Blues... are we saying that there was Blues before Gospel or what. It's of my opinion that Blues singers have modeled some of the nuances and sounds of Gospel and created Blues. We also really need to go way back to Africa concerning Black Gospel because a lot of the music, tones, and harmonies that we developed came from music that we allready used and sung in the Motherland. Channel 19 PBS had a great special on Blues and African music, I will have to find the information and post it on here. In the end the spirit should lead you and guide you on what is appropriate....
 :)  :D  :lol:

Offline uriahsmusic

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TO BE CLEAR!!!!
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2005, 12:23:57 PM »
...I STILL SAY THAT WE NEED TO TAKE CONTROL OF THIS INDUSTRY....NOTICE THAT I CALLED IT AN INDUSTRY....WE SIT AND ACCEPT IT AS IF IT WERE GOD'S INTENT...IT IS NOT!...IT IS THE INTENT OF GREEDY UNSAVED INDIVIDUALS CAPITALIZING ON OUR NIEVITY AS WE FOOLISHLY PERPETUATE THE MARKET BY PURCHASING EVERYTHING SET BEFORE US!

Offline uriahsmusic

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2005, 12:27:58 PM »
What do you mean music is not just music?  

IT IS NOT JUST MUSIC...IT IS A PLAN BY INDUSTRY LEADERS TO GET YOU TO BUY WHAT THEY PUT OUT....IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS , GOD...THE SPIRIT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT....THE FARTHER YOU STRAY FROM GOD THE EASIER IT IS TO GET A RECORD DEAL....

Offline Divinecontroller

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Educate
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2005, 02:42:40 PM »
I think what we have to do is educate each other more like the opportunity that is available on sites like this. If we take control of the products that we make and purchase then we would be able to exercise more control. However we are sometimes just too lazy and complacent and uneducated to make a change in our community and our lives. It is a slow process right now. We of course need to pray that GOD lead us and guide us to start controlling our lives and incomes and for those of us that feel that we need to take the industry back, then we need to start building labels and companies and putting out musicians and artists that exemplify real gospel and if the Lord give increase then the path will be illuminated.

Offline uriahsmusic

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a thought
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2005, 02:59:05 PM »
building a label is one of my goals....I have seen stiff opposition from radio types that you need to play the material...the REAL problem is keeping the money out of the mix!...you have to build something that doesnt need..use..or follow the system that exsists....and the motive would need to not revolve around money!....
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