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Author Topic: Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?  (Read 8554 times)

Offline nardo73

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2005, 08:36:07 PM »
insanesquirle said:

well personal i believe that you can have fun and you can talk about sports and things like that but dont put it over god. Some churches get together during the super bowl and watch it all together. I tell you what, i should rather and i would rather be at a church service hearing the word of god and praising the lord for what he did for us than watching a ball being tossed. Now do I think that football is a sin? no, but i still just dont believe that instead of services you watch a game.



You know. I'm going to say, this is ridiculous, because your twisting the words around. All I'm saying, is to have a balance in life. I know In my heart that I'm totally sold out for christ, and guess what? if he desires that I witness to someone about sports, I'm GONNA break it down like: the 12 runners on the field are like the disciples, and the coach symbalizes Christ :lol: , and the 12 runners need to know every kind of tactics there is (which is the Word) to defend themselves against the opposition (the Enemy), this is just an analogy set to meet a common ground with people, I din't say let's have a drink with them neither did I say football should be more important than a church service, because if it was, our works would be unfruitful, but be open minded so you can use the wisdom God alone gives you to witness to people in diffrent fields.
People in this day and age won't think twice about runnig away from someone who is "Holier than thou art", but if god can use someone who can relate to them, then LET GOD GET HIS GLORY!!!!


                                                                                           [/quote]
II Kings 3:15  But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the

Offline Robbace

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2005, 12:11:08 PM »
Hello brother Bass players in Christ just letting you all know I love you but can we capitalize the name of the Lord please dont mean to offend anyone :D     He is our father which art in heaven,covers us with his most precious blood for constant protection.

Offline aaronmatthew

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2005, 03:56:58 PM »
It is so funny to watch people try and give their ethnocentric and dogmatic opinions on what they believe should be Christian music.  The plain fact of the matter is the music is cultural.  Music needs to be judged on content and not style, since style is derived from ones background and cultural. NO WHERE in the BIBLE does it tell us what style music should be done in.  

Music also was ALL ORIGINALLY the Lord's and it was the devil that corrupted it.  Another thing people do not know is that many of those old gospel tunes our grandparents sang in church were converted tavern, bar, folk and dance songs. YUP YOU READ IT CORRECTLY.  In college we began researching the origins of songs like Amazing Grace, How Great Thou Art (from a Swedish Folk Song), Oh How I Love Him (Italian Love Ballad), and so many others.  

Today this pattern it hasnít changed.  People write music based on their cultural background, the style they are used to, the beats and rhythms.  Back in the days people were not even used to polyphonic rhythms in music and were used to monophonic rhythms, so anything with a groove was considered evil.  

Music has been converted from worldly music for hundreds of years, just like holidays.  Yes, many of the holidays we celebrate like Christmas were not originally Christian, rather were Pagan holidays that were changed to Christian like holidays when people found Christ in order to keep their holidays.

So what does it all mean?  It means music is music, and it is the content that makes it Godly or ungodly.  Just because a Christian writes a song and calls it gospel doesnít mean it is, it is all about the content.

--aaronmatthew

Offline wethepeople

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2005, 12:20:19 PM »
:?: Music must be looked upon as a tool created by God , and as Gosple musicians my soul desire is to create a sound that God can inhabit, for God inhabits, he lives in the praises of his people, Creating a sound he can dwell in that some might be compelled to repent, sing, to draw closer to JESUS     P.G.

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2005, 06:54:42 AM »
Quote from: T-Block
uriahsmusic wrote:

Quote
MUSIC IS NOT JUST MUSIC


What do you mean music is not just music?  Music is just music.  The way you feel about a certain beat is purely personal.  I can hear certain music and feel happy, while others can hear that same music and get sleepy.  You can't say that just because you think a certain beat makes you think about sex that others are going to feel that way.  You have to get that statement across by adding words that talk about sex.  I totally disagree with you and anybody else who feels like music is not just music.


T-Block,
Your comment is from your heart, strictly emotional.  It's what you think, what YOU think...  But it's not scriptural.  

Mt 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mt 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

According to the Bible, We're in the world but not of the world.  Satan is the Ruler of this world and everything in it.  He even told Jesus that.  (I'll give you all this if you worship me) Did Jesus debate him?  He's ruling in limited conditions from Jesus.  But Jesus allow him to rule, for now.  Some of you out there is thinking that God is All-Power.  Therefore, he stops Satan.  True, only where God wants to stop him, according to God's Will.  Since music is in the world, Satan CONTROLs that, too.  This is beyond lyrics.  From the day you were born Satan conditioned you to mentally hear Music a certain way (Lyrics is another story).  The only way to avoid this is to grow up in a sterile environment.  Satan controls music and broadcast (everything we see and hear).  So Music isn't this sterile, clean bubble untainted.  We can grab it and clean it.  But we can't just grab it and use it and say it's okay because God created it.  God created Satan, too.  But Satan's the epitome of evil.  Why is all this so?  I don't know.  God says "My ways aren't like your ways, my thoughts aren't like your thoughts... "  But, yet, we continue to reason and rationalize things from OUR thoughts with no regards of the scriptures.  Don't argue from your heart, man.

Tony

Offline aaronmatthew

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2005, 05:36:14 PM »
"According to the Bible, We're in the world but not of the world. Satan is the Ruler of this world and everything in it."  

You are contradicting yourself here.  Either Satan is the ruler of all things of this world or he isnít.  Satan runs around the world creating havoc, yes, but he doesnít not own this world nor does he own the things of/in it.  Thus he is not the ruler of this world, only trying to behave as if he is.  The true owner and ruler of all things it the Alpha and Omega, Jesus Christ. You also reference the following scriptures (Mt 15:18-19) which deal with things from a personís mouth and thoughts; these do not in anyway specify the style of music rhythms, beats, choral structure etc.  Your argument is not a valid one.

One thing this does show is that manís evil is of his own devices, from thoughts, words, feelingsÖetc.  Thus by your example of scripture in its application towards music would mean that any music, Christian or non-Christian is subject in the manner by which it was authored.

You can author an old hymn like amazing grace or perform a song like amazing grace and have naked people getting down and dirty to the song, this is not pleasing to God.  You can author Christian song that has the right type of ethnically geographic specific lyrics, rhythms, melody and choral harmonies, but it could have hidden innuendos and meanings that are contrary to His will, this is not Godís will either.

Once again, music for the Lord is about intent, meaning, content, NOT STYLE or Ethno Geographic acceptance.

--aaron

Offline aaronmatthew

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2005, 06:14:24 PM »
Sorry I should have used some scripture.

1. to say the devil has rule or dominion over the world is incorrect Biblically. Saying this means that we follow the beliefs of old catholsim who thought everything is evil and we must repent for everything, and beat ourselves as punishment for being evil.

Gen 1:26 "...let them (MAN) have dominion over the fish of the sea, over th birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth..."

Jude 1:25 "To God our Savior, Who alone is wise glory and majesty, dominion and power, both NOW and forever...

Eph 1:21 (in reference to Jesus Christ)  "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but in that which is to come:"

--aaronmatthew

Offline GIRT

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2005, 07:43:39 PM »
I have noticed a lot of opinions that everyone has posted on this site. A lot of them are good ones and others are way in left field. My question is what is you relationship with God like? God will direct you in what to play and when to play it. Music has been around before the Earth was even formed so to say that music itself is secular is to be misleading someone to think that music is too sexy or violent. As it was put many years ago music is an international language. Music is not the probelm it's our minds in which we translate a certain sound, progression, beat, etc... to be seen as secular. Music is God uses in some ways to put us at peace. Everyone is referring to Hip Hop/R&B and no one has mentioned Country, Folk, Bluegrass, Rock or Heavy Metal as secular music. Why is that? Music can't corrupt your mind, a song can't corrupt your mind. We as humans allow our minds to be corrupted because of our sinful nature. Please do me a favor stop trying to blame the music as to how someone responds to it. The bible says that there is nothing new under the Sun, therefore the way music is being played has been going on for years. Technology has allowed us to digitize the way it sounds but it is stil music. God has dealt with me about this issue and he basiclly told me that he created music not man. Just as with preachers there are alot of us musicians that are playing and have not been called to play music. A true musician looks at music at music and nothing else. Once words are put to that music then it becomes a song and that's when people begin to perceive if it is secular or Gospel. Please stop the hate on the way that music songs. As B3wannabe mentioned its the lyrics that make the difference. If you have a probelm with the way gospel music sounds then you might need to check yourself and seek God and see what he tells you. If God tells you that certain grooves/patterns are wrong than that's between you and him. Remember God created it all so therefore how could music itself be bad?

Offline tak

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2005, 02:54:18 AM »
Quote from: GIRT
I have noticed a lot of opinions that everyone has posted on this site. A lot of them are good ones and others are way in left field. My question is what is you relationship with God like? God will direct you in what to play and when to play it. Music has been around before the Earth was even formed so to say that music itself is secular is to be misleading someone to think that music is too sexy or violent. As it was put many years ago music is an international language. Music is not the probelm it's our minds in which we translate a certain sound, progression, beat, etc... to be seen as secular. Music is God uses in some ways to put us at peace. Everyone is referring to Hip Hop/R&B and no one has mentioned Country, Folk, Bluegrass, Rock or Heavy Metal as secular music. Why is that? Music can't corrupt your mind, a song can't corrupt your mind. We as humans allow our minds to be corrupted because of our sinful nature. Please do me a favor stop trying to blame the music as to how someone responds to it. The bible says that there is nothing new under the Sun, therefore the way music is being played has been going on for years. Technology has allowed us to digitize the way it sounds but it is stil music. God has dealt with me about this issue and he basiclly told me that he created music not man. Just as with preachers there are alot of us musicians that are playing and have not been called to play music. A true musician looks at music at music and nothing else. Once words are put to that music then it becomes a song and that's when people begin to perceive if it is secular or Gospel. Please stop the hate on the way that music songs. As B3wannabe mentioned its the lyrics that make the difference. If you have a probelm with the way gospel music sounds then you might need to check yourself and seek God and see what he tells you. If God tells you that certain grooves/patterns are wrong than that's between you and him. Remember God created it all so therefore how could music itself be bad?



God also created men but does that mean homosexuality is ok?  I'm just trying to point that that logic and train of thought is wrong and not applicable to the Bible.

You say, "Music can't corrupt your mind, a song can't corrupt your mind."
Read 1Samuel 16:14-23
Just as music is/was part of the solution music is/was part of the problem also.  Music was satans strong-suit in glory and is one of his strongholds down here.  Music does carry more than a rhythm or chord with it, music is evidently very spiritual if God could use a harp and a hand to ease an evil spirit from Saul.  So then what makes us think that the opposite could not occur.  Nowhere in that scripture does it say David sang or said a word; he played...  Music is very influential.  Gangsters have testified that they will listen to "murder music" for a while before they do a drive by to usher in that feeling i.e. spirit that emboldens them to do their/satanic bloodthirsty pleasure.  That music doesn't exactly have a soft pleasant rhythm to it but is driven with a rhythmic intent.  This is a harsh example but again to prove a point.  How long music has been around does nothing to negate the fact that it can be used influentially. It is not a question of just sex or violence those are just a means to relate to human sin since before us lucifer was thrown out of heaven and will do anything even use music to join us to his misery.

Read 1Samuel 15:21-28
If I put gospel lyrics behind the song "drop it like it's hot" do you really think that is Holy?  Do you think that is pleasing to God? Will it not reminisce old lustful memories and spirits.  In this scripture it is evident that God has no pleasure in us trying to conform something that was meant for evil into a sacrifice for Him.   Another; since faith cometh by hearing... what else can come by hearing?  If music can bring you peace it can also bring you confusion.

You mention what a "true musician" sees music as...  well before you're a "musician"  you should be a Christian first and that should be the 1st view on any and everything.  Is it pleasing to God?  A lot of people are under your influence when you play so it is much heavier than just that.  The Bible says: Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: >>>for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. <<<

All in all we have to answer to God ourselves and 99 1/2 won't do.  I am not trying to condemn or be the "right one" I just don't want any of my brothers or sisters in the dark or stumbling short of pleasing God because of a lack of knowledge; being unaware of satans devices.......  May the omniscient God our Father lead us into His perfect (not permissable) will through Christ Jesus by His Spirit making us whole and meet for His use, fit for the Kingdom, pleasing in His sight.  Amen.

P.S.
Good info:   http://exministries.com/arguments.html

Offline fenderjazz

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2005, 09:50:09 AM »
Quote
 Remember God created it all so therefore how could music itself be bad?


God also created Lucifer and look at him. God also created the entire human race and destroyed all of it except for eight souls because it was continually evil. The Bible tells us that God made everything that exists and nothing was made without Him but obviously some things have been corrupted. Music does not exist in a vacuum so perhaps it can be evil too in some cases. Since there's not a specific Thou-shalt-not scripture on this subject, this discussion will probably go on forever.

(no offense intended, just trying to keep a good discussion going)

Offline VernDog

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This is an old thread, but I wanted to chime in...
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2005, 10:53:33 PM »
There were a lot of really positive comments in this thread, but I felt motivated to give my $0.02.

Someone said music is what it is.  And for the most part, I agree.  But I'd further that to say that music eminates or comes from the soul of the musician(s) playing it.

One of the biggest "cross-over" hits a few years back was Stomp.  Kirk robbed Parliament Funkadelic blind (at least I THINK it was P-Funk).... all the way to the top of the charts and to the bank.  How many folks wound up at the alter after hearing it?  Would any of us here question that the sentiment behind the lyrics and the rhythm & tempo were of "spiritual origin"?  Teddy Riley did a cut with the Winans a while back too...."It's Time To Make A Change"... any one wonder if the Winans took off their holy robe or if Teddy "yep yep" Riley had found salvation?  I remember a few years back, I was a part of a musical production and the music leader said she needed something upbeat.... I suggested and started playing Superfreak by Rick James.  She (always raised in the church, unlike me) argued me down that MC Hammer wrote it!!  For those that see the humor, you know that it was funny!

What I'm saying is that sure, every now and then, you'll hear a secular line in church, and if you really know your old school stuff, you'll know when you hear everything from the O'Jays and Gladys Knight & the Pips in todays contemporary gospel. Listen carefully... it's there!    But what you're hearing is not "the devil" or "secular music" per se as much as what THAT MUSICIAN is feeling or using to communicate his or her message.  

The source of the music is the soul of the musician.  That is where, if you're thinking that something is corrupted or a line has been crossed, that is where the line has been crossed.   If the soul is bad or not OF GOD, guess what the music is gonna be.... something to think about.

I'm not saying that a line has been crossed or that some artists that present themselves as messengers really aren't.  I'm saying that the REAL issue is the motivations of the messengers that we're making rich and high on the hog with our monetary support and super star status.  

In addition, where are the hearts,minds and souls of the audience that accepts them?  We're so quick to recognize a club beat and a rap line or hook that we are showing where we've been in our past and boy we sure do miss it.  Thanks Ron Winans for hooking up with TR and giving us something to reminesse about.....  

Hez Walker, Kirk F.,  Yo Yo, The Williams Brothers, TD Jakes, and a lot others know that the masses they are trying to reach have a thread of worldliness in them and one way to attact them to their product and their message (or God's message since that is what they're supposed to be delivering) is to tickle the senses with something they can relate to.  I dont' see anything wrong with it as long as the end goal is another soul saved.  But is that happening?  Or have they found another way to still have those worldly connections within the sanctity of a church surrounding.  Ultimately, these are questions that no one here can answer.  Only the person in the pew or at the B3 or on the drums or in the choir stand can answer.  

But we, individually, in our own endeavors, have to make our own choices.  Because ultimately, only we will stand accountable for our own actions.  Let's not be so quick to judge and cast stones.  Let's do our best to master our craft and deliver what WE want delivered.  Listen to all music, learn it, understand what it takes to play it, and use our best judgement when it's appropriate.  

(that was more like $0.12, but oh well...)

Offline tak

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2005, 02:15:16 AM »
The Bible always confirms itself and guides us by example or direct order by the Word.  And never once do I see in scripture where God used something secular or idolatrous to "attract" people.  We must be careful when using our temporal opinions on matters so eternal.  Often we mistake His permissable will with His perfect will.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Offline VernDog

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2005, 02:29:45 AM »
Quote from: tak
And never once do I see in scripture where God used something secular or idolatrous to "attract" people.  


I see what you're saying tak, but I offer this, While God didn't exactly use anything secular to attract people to the gospel, Jesus wasn't one for keeping His word from the secular minded.  He was known to associate with the outcast, the socially deplorable, those that others had shunned for various reasons. He, in his mortal existence, identified with other mortals that were dealing with the down side of their mortality.  Maybe some artists are identifying with the secular side of their current or past existence by leaning on the secular side of music every now and then.  I say that by using "secular" riffs and such, an artist may be saying, "I've been there too."  And a potential soul for Christ might identify with that.  ya know?

Offline tak

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2005, 02:43:45 AM »
True Christ fellowshipped with them but He did not join works with them or conformed His work to theirs.  What He did was avail Himself to them which is entirely different.  In fact when he visited Zacchaeus' house Zacchaeus changed the way he worked and returned fourfold that which he took and gave to the poor. Luke 19:7-10
I wouldn't carry a crack pipe and maybe take a whiff while reading the Bible to a crackhead in order to relate to the crackhead but I will tell him that if God delivered me from it He can do it for you too.  Extreme point but similar philosophy.  Amazingly music can have that kind of "crack-effect" on people; it takes us back....
Ephesians 5:10-11 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Offline Dtuned

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2005, 01:01:06 PM »
dont even get me started !!

what a thread..

without reading through it all i'll post my brief madness..

there is a fine line between love & hate sometimes right? especially without the love of GOD..

i believe to a point its whats in your spirit, the spirit will guide you to a level where God is pleased.. at the same token, God wants His music to be used as a witnessing tool, to guide the masses to Him..

Tell me then if a car goes down my street and is blairing Heavy Metal, or some hardcore Rap what am i to think?? (these people need Jesus, God Bless their souls, their on drugs, thugs etc).. Stereo typing right??

at the same token lets say, although i didnt hear the lyrics this was soppose to be some 'Christian' Heavy Metal/ Rap.. where does this type of  'Christian' music Glorify Him..

there is also this fine line in the House of God, i would steer far from any church that i didnt feel right about the music in the Holy Ghost..

rob
spirit check, testing 1,2,3...testing, testing. a scripture a day will keep the enemy at bay. :0)

Offline MikeGee

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2005, 03:25:42 PM »
Are you aware that there is; Christian Raggae, Christian Rock, Christian Ska, Christian Heavey Metal? Chirstian dance, techno, blue grass.

I'm not for or against this topic this is just something for you to think about.

Offline Dtuned

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2005, 06:04:52 PM »
yes, im aware of all the "Christian" music out there..

my point is that you as a Christian, are suppose to be ye separate from the world..

how can you be 'separate' if you act and or 'appear' to be just like the world..???

thats like have scriptual tattoos on your neck etc, and come to me as a sinner and tell me how awesome God is.. when that person himself 'appears' no differant then the rest..

i will make more time later to express my opinion in greater detail..

later,
rob
spirit check, testing 1,2,3...testing, testing. a scripture a day will keep the enemy at bay. :0)

LisaRawlsWilson

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2005, 12:12:55 AM »
Quote from: Dtuned
my point is that you as a Christian, are suppose to be ye separate from the world..how can you be 'separate' if you act and or 'appear' to be just like the world..???


I just skimmed through this thread, and I totally agree with Dtuned.  I used to make it my business to take secular songs that I thought had a really nice hook or grove and either use them in gospel songs or, for special occasions, just rewrite the words and use the music.  I called myself "reclaiming the music for God."  Then it occurred to me: what if God didn't want it?  

Honestly, I believe that certain music has an evil "spirit" (for lack of a better word, but maybe that is the word) attached to it and no matter what lyrics you put with it the overall effect is going to be negative.  For example, take Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing."  Now, maybe it's just because I associate that bass line with that particular song and I know what that song is about already, but if you heard somebody singing the words to, say, "Amazing Grace" with that bass grove, would you really be thinking about God's grace or would you be thinking, Geez, that sounds just like "Sexual Healing!"?  I mean, am I the only person in the world who just couldn't get into that gospel song that used the hook from Tupac's "I Ain't Mad Atcha"?

LisaRawlsWilson

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Where should we as gospel musicians draw the line?
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2005, 12:18:24 AM »
Quote from: Dtuned
my point is that you as a Christian, are suppose to be ye separate from the world..how can you be 'separate' if you act and or 'appear' to be just like the world..???


I just skimmed through this thread, and I totally agree with Dtuned.  I used to make it my business to take secular songs that I thought had a really nice hook or grove and either use them in gospel songs or, for special occasions, just rewrite the words and use the music.  I called myself "reclaiming the music for God."  Then it occurred to me: what if God didn't want it?  

Honestly, I believe that certain music has an evil "spirit" (for lack of a better word, but maybe that is the word) attached to it and no matter what lyrics you put with it the overall effect is going to be negative.  For example, take Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing."  Now, maybe it's just because I associate that bass line with that particular song and I know what that song is about already, but if you heard somebody singing the words to, say, "Amazing Grace" with that bass grove, would you really be thinking about God's grace or would you be thinking, Geez, that sounds just like "Sexual Healing!"?  I mean, am I the only person in the world who just couldn't get into that gospel song that used the hook from Tupac's "I Ain't Mad Atcha"?

Spiritfingers

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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2005, 01:23:42 AM »
I can't even believe that they brought this topic back up!  I would rather not even give my opinion.  Oh my bad, I was crucified with Christ so my opinion doesn't matter...  Gal. 2:20  Also read Romans 14!
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