What is it about music and money?

[fenderjazz]

Time and again I've observed topics like "Should church musicians be paid?" and "Is it wrong to play secular music?" pop up here at LGM and they always become the most interesting and heated discussions. God's people have a wide range of talents in the creative arts and beyond. Many of us even pursue careers that relate to our talents. However, why does it seem like music is the only form of talent that we question as a legitimate profession for a Christian?  

It's like if we see a child who can draw or write stories we say " You should go to school for that. You can make some money when you grow up." but if a child can play an instrument it's like "Only play at church and your reward shall be in Heaven." I'm just wondering why it's so common for music to be looked at so differently from everything else among believer's of the Christian faith.

[drumology]

Wow that's a good question I want to see an answer also.

[sugabear]

That's a question that I've pondered over for a while. I feel the same way about music careers. Music is not the only gift that God has given His children so why is it deemed that way. There are people that God blessed to be great speakers and they may become a great Orator (and get paid for it). Do you think God is upset with them because they didn't become a preacher? God has blessed some with great leadership ability and he/she may become a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Do you think God is mad at them for not becoming a pastor of a MegaChurch? Honestly, I don't think so. I think it's unfair to limit God to just a church setting, we've been preaching to the choir for years. There's a harvest of souls that we haven't touched yet and if God chooses to bless you with a gift that can be used outside of the four walls of the church then so be it. If the added blessing and the result of obedience is a paycheck then why turn that away? I thank God and I admire people who take their gifts outside the church, hadn't it been that way we wouldn't have great movies like "The Gospel" or "Woman Thou Art Loosed", etc. Throughout scripture, God showed himself in many forms-- a pillar of fire, a glory cloud, a burning bush, a still small voice, the only begotten Son, so why make Him one dimensional when it comes to ministry?

[Antheny]

I definitely agree with everything you said sugabear. People do not understand what God says about this in the Bible. I know some are thinkin now like, "God said you should pay the musicians?". He did not say it like that directly in His word, but he addressed a similar issue. There are actually 13 tribes of Israel. The reason why people do not realize this is because they always include the Levites, but in actuality, the Levites did not have their own land. The Levites were the high priests, musicians, and just the overall caretakers of the Tabernacle. When it was time to move, they were the ones who were to move it, and not anyone else. Their inheritance came from a tenth of each of the other tribes' belongings and things of that sort. When God said to bring the tithes so that there may be meat in his house, he did not mean that he wanted to eat it. This was for the tribe of Levi. So, in turn, when dealing with our situation, it is a Biblical principal to get paid for our services of bringing music to the people of God. He did not say to the tribe of Levi, "Just do it and maybe I'll bless you here and there for your faithfulness." What he did was have the tithes and offerings to the tabernacle be for the taking care of the people who did the work in his Tabernacle. If there are anymore questions about this, just let me know and I'll be sure to post more.

[vocalist182002]

I asked myself that same question, should christians get paid to do ministry.  Jesus got paid as well, when he ministered the people that he ministered to provided food, shelter and whatever else it was that he needed.  Besides, it's not like christians get paid to live off of it alone.  Most of the time the money that we are blessed with doesn't even cover most of what we need.  When a singer minister's in song, does a concert or whatever, yes they get paid, offering, love token or whatever.  But guess what, most of the time that helps them to get to their next location that they need to minister at.  We can't be too quick to ask questions sometimes we just need to sit back and think about it.  When people minister they need a place to eat, sleep and focus on God so that they may minister to us.  I am so greatful for a lot of artist, because they don't always go perform and get what they expected, but they still make it to their next destination to make sure that we get ministered to so that we can grow.  I hope I helped you out in some way.  I wondered the same thing though, just think about it.

[LilWes]

well to tell u the truth i think gettin paid might build up the flesh even more so instead of playin for god u might start playin for the money 8O  :cry:

[MMcquittyFan21]

well to tell u the truth i think gettin paid might build up the flesh even more so instead of playin for god u might start playin for the money 8O  :cry:

so tru, i totaly agree...

[waydrummer]

But the bible says your gift will make room for u and the Lord has done that from me.  when I get a gig, I don't tel people I demand this certain amount.  They tell me they are going to pay me, because they respect my craft.  And if someone is "fleshy" about gettin money,  the Lord will deal with them on that.

[JFunky]

I know I said I would stay away from topics like this on another post but you guys have made some very good points and they shouldn't be overlooked.  As some of you guys know, I do not get paid at my church but I do get some sort of an offering.  It is ungrateful not to accept it and also, whoever said that the offerings or money that you get sometimes isn't enough, is right but at the same time you can use it for your ministry.  If they gave me a $50 offering after a Conference that I've played at, I'll accept it and run to the nearest GC and buy a video, sticks or new set of heads.  God will bless you financially and spiritually because let's be real about something, if you were offered $50 right on the spot; would you take it or leave it? :roll: I hope that we can go over this in a mature way so that it doesn't get out of hand and gets locked.

[DESQ]

Jfunky, I feel you.  I try to stay away from these types of discussion as well but as Micheal Corleone said "They keep pulling me back in!!" Additionally, I just had a recent conversation with a musician on this very topic and it's something I've been struggling with personally.  Anyways, this is for those that will accept it.  

Plain and simple.  Yes, musicians should be paid for their ministry. (I won't quote the plethora of scriptures to back up this statement at this time)  Unfortunately and realistically, most churches have not reached the financial level where they can pay musicians adequately or even full-time.  While other churches take advantage of musicians b/c they believe that music is just an "incidental" and do not understand the power a strong music ministry would have on the overall ministry of the church.  

However, let's be real here for a minute.  If I'm a great writer and recognize that God has given me the talent but I decide to write erotic poetry or erotic books as a career, is that pleasing to God?  If I'm a creative person and I have a talent to be behind the camera and recognize that God has given me the talent to create films but all of my films are for adult entertainment purposes, is that pleasing to God?  If I'm a great orator and I go around the country and teach my audience to embrace and live by the principles of secular humanism[but I'm a Christian 8O], is that pleasing to God?  If I'm a creative person and work in the advertising business, and I create commercials or print ads for tobacco use or alcoholic beverages, is that pleasing to God?  Most of us would state that the above situations are not pleasing to God  

Nevertheless, if I play secular music, 95% of which is about SEX and others things directly contrary to the Word [again recognizing that God has given me the talent], somehow that's alright :?  :? I constantly hear the statement "it's just a job" from all my friends in the secular music industry.  But it's also a choice.  Simply b/c that person does not lose the ability to play the instrument in a dynamic way has no bearing on whether God is pleased.  Just b/c God tolerates it does not necessarily mean that it is pleasing to him i.e., look at the discussion that Jesus had with the Pharisees regarding divorce.  Matt 19:1-8.

We make choices everyday whether to please God or ignore him.  Some choices are more poignant than others.  The gifts of God are w/o repentance and it's up to us how we use the gift He has given us.  God will not violate or override the human will, he asks us to submit to Him.

The Bible declares that before Jesus returns again that there will be a "great falling away".  II Thess. 2:3.  This passage is referring to us, Christians, saved, sanctified folk.  Let's not rationalize and justify our decisions but make sure that all we do is in accordance with the Word.  I hope that I have not been too preachy (which can be a turn-off to some) but just made you think clearly on the subject.  God Bless.

[sugabear]

When it comes to myself, I have boundaries when it comes to using my gift outside of the church. Honestly, I can't fully submit my gift to secular music because my heart is with the church and God's people, so I'd rather submit it fully there. However, if I do decide to use my gift outside of the church, you better believe I'm, and I think everyone else, will/should choose gigs very carefully. With me, it comes down to the message that I'm promoting. Will I get behind a message of sex, drugs, crime, and self indulgence? No, that's where I draw the line. But if the music is sending a positive message or just expressing the joy of playing pure unadulterated music, then I'm there. I think it safe to say that every secular song shouldn't be supported by a Christian musicians. No your limit. It's like God blessing someone with entrepreneurship ability and theydecide to market and franchise illegal drugs. You're abusing your gift to glorify evil and promote self destruction, but what if you use it to build your own clothing business. Is it wrong then? Undeniably, no. It's up to individuals to know your boundaries.

[fenderjazz]

I appreciate everyone's responses but I think I was a little unclear about the question that I wanted to raise in my original post. I wasn't really trying to get at weather musicians should be paid or not. I'm mainly try to figure out why music as a profession is looked upon with a lot more scrutiny than any other profession that Christians may choose to pursue. It's like music is the only talent that people feel should be used exclusively to glorify God while other talents can be used to glorify God and make a living in the world also.

Of course I don't think we should go to the extreme of playing for an artist like Lil Jon and the East Side Boys. However, there are many other avenues that are considered secular but are not necessarily unwholesome. For example, film scoring, theater music, classical, jazz, jingles, etc. Why is music the only form of talent that is often expected to be exclusively reserved for church or the gospel genre?

[Zelevo]

Such topics are very hard to answer. I know of many people/ personal friends who once where playing in church, who now play secular.

So far I as am concerned it is a matter of the person's faith and how far the person believes God can carry him through.
The parable of the sower describes what the situation is all about.
Mark 4: 10 -20. Prov 3 : 5,6
I really judge no one though because faced with a situation like this I do not know how I would. This is a tough decision to call.

Another thing which I have realised is those who are in the gospel music industry or play in church are unfairly targeted/ mistreated, underpaid (intentionally/unintentionally) by our own - so they run to where they seem to be "appreciated".

Most us of have a secular jobs working for the "World System" we hate or profess to hate. Don't you think we should be removing the log from our eyes? I am have friends who are computer programmers - churning out code for defence companies, who in turn are selling trigger systems for arms. I have friends who are stacking shelves for multi -billion companies; who are exploiting poor African farmers and consumers alike.

So where were does it end. For me it's a tough call.

The best Job is working for God. Full time ministry

[fenderjazz]

I also would like to ask why is it that we only think in the smaller terms of gigging for other people? There's a whole world outside of just playing other people's gigs and there's a whole world outside of R&B artists that only sing about sex and lust. We could be the one's writing and performing film scores. It could be us writing and playing that music you hear when you turn to your favorite sitcom. It could be us playing in the pit at those big time plays on Broadway. Sex filled R&B is just one type of music and smoke filled clubs are just one place where music is performed. Someone here might have the potential to be the greatest classical composer since Mozart and never realize it because their talent doesn't fit the gospel genre and they get the impression that there's no other avenues for them.

[playhear]

I'm mainly try to figure out why music as a profession is looked upon with a lot more scrutiny than any other profession that Christians may choose to pursue.

I bet if we took a poll, the vast majority of Christians would not see a problem with a gospel musician taking a secular gig playing with somebody like Herbie Hancock, Kenny G or Maceo Parker. Unfortunately, writers are not clearly defining their issue at the beginning of their thread.

When I say “secular music”, I’m not even thinking about 50 Cent or Lil Jon. I’m thinking about Herbie Hancock. On the other hand, 50 Cent is exactly what comes to mind for some people when the word “secular” comes up. These threads have been all about people taking a faulty assumption and using perfectly sound logic to arrive at a completely irrelevant response.

In short, we just all need to be talking about the same thing!

[JFunky]

So far, so good.  I like the way everyone is responding to this man.  See, this is how we can communicate with each other.  All you cats are real mature, I can tell.  Very good.  Keep 'em coming and keep it clean.

[playhear]

I'm mainly try to figure out why music as a profession is looked upon with a lot more scrutiny than any other profession that Christians may choose to pursue.

To answer that specific question, musicians receive more scrutiny because it's such a fulfilling profession compared to others. Many musicians here are all but pissed off at the thought of taking money for playing for the church.

For example, playing for the church is much more fulfilling then doing tax returns. God may have called George to do tax returns. God may have called Stan to be a gospel musician. Do we ever question George’s right to demand hefty compensation for his tax filings? No, because his job is not as fulfilling as Stan’s profession as a musician. Stan would probably work for free if he had to do so, as proven by many posts on this site. George most likely would not.

A gospel musician may feel as though his payment is watching people receive God’s presence. People working secular jobs seldom receive such payment.

[freddyfusion]

rtight!
 be specific, don't make generalities
  and as for the ones who say if you get paid it could build the flesh and you could start to play for the money-  the pay is not the  problem it is the symptom
  the problem is  deeper and the devil will find a way to exploit it, if that person would get affected by the money that way, they'd be affected by other things in that way too.   if they're not playing for the money they will be playing for the attentionor the glory  or compliments or girls, you know, all the other stuff that can be a temptation to musicians
so really the pay is not the problem, it is the character.
 so there really isn't a problem with paying musicians if you make sure theyre heart is right, because it is not like the other motives aren't as bad as playing for the money, actually the others can be more dangerous because they go unnoticed more easily and can affect ministry longer.
if you make sure that person is right then you know you won't have to worry about ANY of the mess (from money to taking glory)or their mess messing with the ministry

[freddyfusion]

and for the record, i have been playing for my church a  looooong time-(se 4 yrs old), and i have never been paid, even when other musicians were.  but i've never thought twice about it becuase i have always felt fortunate to be able to enter God's prescence in a manner that is #1 on my "things i love" list.  and i always knew that i was blessing HIM and his people.
 i really thank God for keeping me from the nasty attitudes and mindsets- because i definately could have fallen into the trap easily, but he kept me in his grace.
 PRAISE HIM  

[JFunky]

 
A gospel musician may feel as though his payment is watching people receive God’s presence. People working secular jobs seldom receive such payment.

.....and what a payment and feeling.  It feels soooooo gooooood when the Holy Spirit takes over the service and people just get blessed from their head to the toes.  It's worth more than anything in this world to be a part of that.  I love to see the Ministers of Music get swallowed by the Power of God and then transfer that to the congregation through their instruments.  Wow!  Thank you Jesus.  I worship you Father!!!!