A REFESHING TOPIC ABOUT DRUMMING MYTHS THAT WE NEED TO REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT.

[Eccentric-Rhythm]

In the March 06 Modern Drummer (w/ Bozzio on the cover) on page 124-126 there is an Awesome article that to me is a must read. 12 Drumming Myths by Adam Budofsky. and this is the one that I enjoyed the most:

You Should Work Toward Being Proficient At As Many Different Styles As Possible.

"Maybe, maybe not. If everyone did it, then we'd likely have fewer players with truly unique styles. Would Elvin Jones have been "Better" if he mastered garage rock, electro-pop, and Elton John ballads? Yes, I've heard the argument: Learning more styles allows you to play in more musical situations. I just dont think the world will necessarily be blessed with more great, original music if EVERY musician tried to be a jack of all trades. Find your musical voice, develop it, and play with people who "get" you. History might just remeber you more fondly.

This is always an interesting topic on this board. So please sound off, and lets see what you think about this....

God Bless.

[j_kay]

I don't agree with this.  If we can't become tecnically astute with each genre/style of music, we could at least be well versed in the authencity of each musical genre/style. 

[SabianKnight]

I read the article and thought that it was funny. I felt llike it opened the door for a lot of excuses for drummers to make about why they aren't making next level committments in there playing. We've all got our reasons but we all don't admit them.

His comment on Elvin was like, huh? Be that the drumset was created by jazz musicians and the popular music of that time was jazz every drummer should start there first in understanding the drumset. However for most of us these days it's not how we start. Starting at jazz allows us the flexibilty to play any other form of U.S. music. Rock is 2 & 4 which most people don't really get because they don't understand subdivisions, and 4-way coordination/independence and initerdependence which is the foundation of jazz playing.

The Bible says in all you gettig get understanding.. that is is going to come through knowledge and experience. It almost seems like he is saying that you should not seek to experience or the knowledge of various styles of music. That causes you to make excuses. Musicians expect drumset musicians to be well read and well versed in various styles. For example Prince is a musician that fits no genre of music. You cannot be a one dimesional player and play for him, especially since he plays the drumset well himself.

Don't let the devil sneak one in one you guys. Seek wisdom...

[j_kay]

Man, that 'edit' button...   *lol*

[j_kay]

technically

[MaestroDivine]

Personally, I feel it comes down to your purpose for playing.

I feel that many musicians who wish to become proficient in every genre, do so, so that they aren't limited in the work that they can get. Or because it's the a 'law' in some, as of yet, unwritten book of guidelines for musicians. Because someone can play more styles, that makes them a better drummer/musician? I think that's putting what it means to be a musician, in a box. What if someone wanted to created their own style - and were totally uninterested in the style's that already exist? Does that not make him a great musician/drummer, if he becomes very proficient in such? It would seem that being labeled a great musician/drummer .. ultimately comes down to one's ability to be sought offer by artist's, in a myriad of genre's.

While I commend the effort and dedication it take's to achieve such - it shouldn't be the end all and be all for a musician. Some people, like myself, are more concerned with discovering new musical ideas. Why be limited to learning music of various genre's if your ambition isn't to be a 'working musician'?

Music is, inherently, limitless, I feel. Their is no end to what one can do with music .. however, if we restrict ourselves to what has already been done, then we quite possibly deprive the world AND musicians alike, of something entirely new & exciting

Just because 100 great musicians said it, doesn't make it a law. NO ONE owns this. If you want to work in the INDUSTRY, then you have to conform. That's just the way it is.  If you're more concerned with finding your OWN musical voice, then you explore the depths of the infinite musical universe ... and leave a legacy of originality, for all those you left behind, to aspire to.

Music is whatever you want it to be. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. No matter how passionately, or eloquently they may state it. No one will ever be a complete musician, 'cause I doubt our human minds can truly fathom what that means. You can be complete in being able to play what has exist's to play ... but that has it's own limitations, as does the musician who can't play any of them, but seeks to play their 'own song'.

[MaestroDivine]

I read the article and thought that it was funny. I felt llike it opened the door for a lot of excuses for drummers to make about why they aren't making next level committments in there playing. We've all got our reasons but we all don't admit them.

His comment on Elvin was like, huh? Be that the drumset was created by jazz musicians and the popular music of that time was jazz every drummer should start there first in understanding the drumset. However for most of us these days it's not how we start. Starting at jazz allows us the flexibilty to play any other form of U.S. music. Rock is 2 & 4 which most people don't really get because they don't understand subdivisions, and 4-way coordination/independence and initerdependence which is the foundation of jazz playing.

The Bible says in all you gettig get understanding.. that is is going to come through knowledge and experience. It almost seems like he is saying that you should not seek to experience or the knowledge of various styles of music. That causes you to make excuses. Musicians expect drumset musicians to be well read and well versed in various styles. For example Prince is a musician that fits no genre of music. You cannot be a one dimesional player and play for him, especially since he plays the drumset well himself.

Don't let the devil sneak one in one you guys. Seek wisdom...

SabianKnight ..

Do you truly feel that their is only one rigid path to become a great musician? While I respect any musician who can play in any musical situation; what makes this the only goal a musician should have? Also, I feel that you're right about some musicians using this as an excuse - but why should they have to make an excuse for not aspiring to be what other musicians think they should be? Their are certain things that you must learn if you plan to walk the path walked by so many others before you - but I feel that Bozzio spoke out for a lot of musicians who truly don't wish to be the ideal of the great musician that many esteem so highly.

[j_kay]

Personally, I feel it comes down to your purpose for playing.

I feel that many musicians who wish to become proficient in every genre, do so, so that they aren't limited in the work that they can get. Or because it's the a 'law' in some, as of yet, unwritten book of guidelines for musicians. Because someone can play more styles, that makes them a better drummer/musician? I think that's putting what it means to be a musician, in a box. What if someone wanted to created their own style - and were totally uninterested in the style's that already exist? Does that not make him a great musician/drummer, if he becomes very proficient in such? It would seem that being labeled a great musician/drummer .. ultimately comes down to one's ability to be sought offer by artist's, in a myriad of genre's.

While I commend the effort and dedication it take's to achieve such - it shouldn't be the end all and be all for a musician. Some people, like myself, are more concerned with discovering new musical ideas. Why be limited to learning music of various genre's if your ambition isn't to be a 'working musician'?

Music is, inherently, limitless, I feel. Their is no end to what one can do with music .. however, if we restrict ourselves to what has already been done, then we quite possibly deprive the world AND musicians alike, of something entirely new & exciting

Just because 100 great musicians said it, doesn't make it a law. NO ONE owns this. If you want to work in the INDUSTRY, then you have to conform. That's just the way it is.  If you're more concerned with finding your OWN musical voice, then you explore the depths of the infinite musical universe ... and leave a legacy of originality, for all those you left behind, to aspire to.

Music is whatever you want it to be. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. No matter how passionately, or eloquently they may state it. No one will ever be a complete musician, 'cause I doubt our human minds can truly fathom what that means. You can be complete in being able to play what has exist's to play ... but that has it's own limitations, as does the musician who can't play any of them, but seeks to play their 'own song'.

Good point, and it's well taken, Div!

[SabianKnight]

I read the article and thought that it was funny. I felt llike it opened the door for a lot of excuses for drummers to make about why they aren't making next level committments in there playing. We've all got our reasons but we all don't admit them.

His comment on Elvin was like, huh? Be that the drumset was created by jazz musicians and the popular music of that time was jazz every drummer should start there first in understanding the drumset. However for most of us these days it's not how we start. Starting at jazz allows us the flexibilty to play any other form of U.S. music. Rock is 2 & 4 which most people don't really get because they don't understand subdivisions, and 4-way coordination/independence and initerdependence which is the foundation of jazz playing.

The Bible says in all you gettig get understanding.. that is is going to come through knowledge and experience. It almost seems like he is saying that you should not seek to experience or the knowledge of various styles of music. That causes you to make excuses. Musicians expect drumset musicians to be well read and well versed in various styles. For example Prince is a musician that fits no genre of music. You cannot be a one dimesional player and play for him, especially since he plays the drumset well himself.

Don't let the devil sneak one in one you guys. Seek wisdom...

SabianKnight ..

Do you truly feel that their is only want rigid path to become a great musician? While I respect any musician who can play in any musical situation; what makes this the only goal a musician should have? Also, I feel that you're right about some musicians using this as an excuse - but why should they have to make an excuse for not aspiring to be what other musicians think they should be? Their are certain things that you must learn if you plan to walk the path walked by so many others before you - but I feel that Bozzio spoke out for a lot of musicians who truly don't wish to be the ideal of the great musician that many esteem so highly.

Lets' remember that Bozzio ias a studied, degree carrying tried and proven musician who had evlved to the point of needing to go in a new direction.

I think that the basic necessaities are the foundation. How you build you foundation will determine how well your structure stands the test of time. The problem is these days too many people use individuality asa cruch and have never leaned to walk the basic foundational path of music.

My degree in art actually helped to better me as a musician. Example rhythm and dynamics are terms used in fine art while color and texture and palette are terms from fine art used in music. Having an understanding of both gave me bigger vision and bigger ears for music. I actually have some Bozzio's music, from my days of downloading,  , and I like it very much. The maturity of his playing and musically decisions go way past the drumkit.

I go back to one of my favorite quotes... Elvin jones- " One cannot experience true freedom without boundaries." For me the boundaries are the foundation. After you have absorbed the foundations of drumming you are prepared to walk your path. God sends no one ahead with out preparation. We tend to jump ahead and get in trouble or are not knowledgable enough to recognized His help along the way. Someone told me once that "When the student is ready the teacher appears." It took a while for me to learn what that meant. But now I know. God put everything we would need to accomplish our purpose around us and in us but have to seek , ask and knock .

The bible says the path is straight and narrow. That sounds pretty rigid to me but we all know that the reward is beyound measure. The world tells us there is another way but the bible tells us that those would stayed the course fared better than those that strayed.

I have always believed that knowledge is power. I think that diversity of playing styles alludes to that. I think that players like Kenny Aronoff whom plays a ton of session and tours is an example of that. he having played on Burning For Buddy the Buddy Rich tribute made his name as john 'Couger' mellancamps man behind the hammer and holding a Masters in Classical Percussion having played in symphony orchestras. I she the best player out there?... not necesserally is he one of the most under-rated? yes Is he one of the highest paid? yes Is he one of the most employed? yes Can he hld it down with most any artist ? yes THat gives him options to do what he wants and still makes gains. his foundation supports that.

Do I believe the people perish for lack of knowledge yes... Diversity of knowledge ? yes  Solomon was the wisest man ever because he asked for it.

[SabianKnight]

D,

You did make some really good points that I can agree with.

I forgot say that in my response to your question. You always bring some thought provoking questions/statements to the table. Keep it coming.

[MaestroDivine]

I read the article and thought that it was funny. I felt llike it opened the door for a lot of excuses for drummers to make about why they aren't making next level committments in there playing. We've all got our reasons but we all don't admit them.

His comment on Elvin was like, huh? Be that the drumset was created by jazz musicians and the popular music of that time was jazz every drummer should start there first in understanding the drumset. However for most of us these days it's not how we start. Starting at jazz allows us the flexibilty to play any other form of U.S. music. Rock is 2 & 4 which most people don't really get because they don't understand subdivisions, and 4-way coordination/independence and initerdependence which is the foundation of jazz playing.

The Bible says in all you gettig get understanding.. that is is going to come through knowledge and experience. It almost seems like he is saying that you should not seek to experience or the knowledge of various styles of music. That causes you to make excuses. Musicians expect drumset musicians to be well read and well versed in various styles. For example Prince is a musician that fits no genre of music. You cannot be a one dimesional player and play for him, especially since he plays the drumset well himself.

Don't let the devil sneak one in one you guys. Seek wisdom...

SabianKnight ..

Do you truly feel that their is only want rigid path to become a great musician? While I respect any musician who can play in any musical situation; what makes this the only goal a musician should have? Also, I feel that you're right about some musicians using this as an excuse - but why should they have to make an excuse for not aspiring to be what other musicians think they should be? Their are certain things that you must learn if you plan to walk the path walked by so many others before you - but I feel that Bozzio spoke out for a lot of musicians who truly don't wish to be the ideal of the great musician that many esteem so highly.

Lets' remember that Bozzio ias a studied, degree carrying tried and proven musician who had evlved to the point of needing to go in a new direction.

I think that the basic necessaities are the foundation. How you build you foundation will determine how well your structure stands the test of time. The problem is these days too many people use individuality asa cruch and have never leaned to walk the basic foundational path of music.

My degree in art actually helped to better me as a musician. Example rhythm and dynamics are terms used in fine art while color and texture and palette are terms from fine art used in music. Having an understanding of both gave me bigger vision and bigger ears for music. I actually have some Bozzio's music, from my days of downloading,  , and I like it very much. The maturity of his playing and musically decisions go way past the drumkit.

I go back to one of my favorite quotes... Elvin jones- " One cannot experience true freedom without boundaries." For me the boundaries are the foundation. After you have absorbed the foundations of drumming you are prepared to walk your path. God sends no one ahead with out preparation. We tend to jump ahead and get in trouble or are not knowledgable enough to recognized His help along the way. Someone told me once that "When the student is ready the teacher appears." It took a while for me to learn what that meant. But now I know. God put everything we would need to accomplish our purpose around us and in us but have to seek , ask and knock .

The bible says the path is straight and narrow. That sounds pretty rigid to me but we all know that the reward is beyound measure. The world tells us there is another way but the bible tells us that those would stayed the course fared better than those that strayed.

I have always believed that knowledge is power. I think that diversity of playing styles alludes to that. I think that players like Kenny Aronoff whom plays a ton of session and tours is an example of that. he having played on Burning For Buddy the Buddy Rich tribute made his name as john 'Couger' mellancamps man behind the hammer and holding a Masters in Classical Percussion having played in symphony orchestras. I she the best player out there?... not necesserally is he one of the most under-rated? yes Is he one of the highest paid? yes Is he one of the most employed? yes Can he hld it down with most any artist ? yes THat gives him options to do what he wants and still makes gains. his foundation supports that.

Do I believe the people perish for lack of knowledge yes... Diversity of knowledge ? yes  Solomon was the wisest man ever because he asked for it.

A. About Elvins Jones's quote...

I don't think any musician will ever embrace the totality, of the boundless spectrum, of musical possibilities. Most musicians will mainly strive to perfect/become proficient in what appeals to them the most.  Ultimately, that will bring boundaries. Only, they are discovered by the musician .. not given to them, by others.

B. About having a musical foundation ... that only HAS to consist of the fundamentals of music. They are like keys to a great vehicle - and you can from that point, decide what direction you wish to drive. Of course, that takes knowing where you're going TO AN EXTENT(having some type of sound that appeals to you, or some type of musical vision). Everything else will be discovered the further you get from the beginning of that musical path you walk.

I guess, ultimately Sabian ... I'm just pretty much spent with conventional ways of thinking, and music that has been played a thousand times already. Different words, similar foundations/structures. I want something new. That's what makes me excited about music. That may also keep me from being taken seriously, or understood, as a musician. However, that's a price that I'm willing to pay. With every choice we make, comes the sacrifice of the choice we didn't make. Soooo .... that's where I stand with that.

Thanks for the compliments. As always, you make some VERY valid points too. It just seems that we think differently when it comes to music. Variety, IN SOME CASES, is the spice of life. 

~OD

[BigSid]

Fellas I love this intelligent dialog between brothers.  There is absolutely posivitively nothing wrong with diagreement as long as it is positive.  Meaning we can disagree without being disagreeable and agree where there is common ground.  Sabe you and Maestro make some valid points.  I tend to come down to where I believe that music is just like a lot of other things in life.  It can be as technical or as limitless as we allow it to be.  It is just like success (relative).  Sabe you may not be happy until you feel as though you have mastered every drumming technique that's out there.  I may be happy with just learning to keep time but really enjoy it.  If we both enjoy what it is we are doing then I think that is what music is really all about.

[SabianKnight]

D,

You remind me of why I like being around creative people, D. Believ it or not you arre an encouragement to me to keep pursuing that sound that I hear in my head  musically that is never discussed on LGM.

I actually do see beyond the box (I THINK YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT...). I even stand on it sometimes to see above the crowd of mideocrity that bombards the air waves dumming our senses.

Keep doing what you do.

[bigblackdrummer]

I read the article and thought that it was funny. I felt llike it opened the door for a lot of excuses for drummers to make about why they aren't making next level committments in there playing. We've all got our reasons but we all don't admit them.

His comment on Elvin was like, huh? Be that the drumset was created by jazz musicians and the popular music of that time was jazz every drummer should start there first in understanding the drumset. However for most of us these days it's not how we start. Starting at jazz allows us the flexibilty to play any other form of U.S. music. Rock is 2 & 4 which most people don't really get because they don't understand subdivisions, and 4-way coordination/independence and initerdependence which is the foundation of jazz playing.

The Bible says in all you gettig get understanding.. that is is going to come through knowledge and experience. It almost seems like he is saying that you should not seek to experience or the knowledge of various styles of music. That causes you to make excuses. Musicians expect drumset musicians to be well read and well versed in various styles. For example Prince is a musician that fits no genre of music. You cannot be a one dimesional player and play for him, especially since he plays the drumset well himself.

Don't let the devil sneak one in one you guys. Seek wisdom...

I agree totally! How is only playing one style being skilled! All the real greats (Im not talking real greats not Calvin and them) Vinnie C, Dave W, Steve G. all are masters at all styles. And Im going to say it! You take your best gospel drummers and Vinnie and Dave will send them home in a body bag!!!!!! So keep practicing everything and dont fall for that garbage!

[MODERN_DRUMMER]

yeah.what all yall said!

[Eccentric-Rhythm]

Thank Div & Sabe. your thoughts are provoking and much appreciated. So...another twist... 
Should Music, as a Profession, be considered or thought of like any other Profession?
What if Bill Gates felt, that he needed to master every aspect of computers, besides Software? If he gave all his knowledge in 10 different directions rather than one, how successful would he have been?
What about Doctors? The Great Doctors are the Specialists. Specialists in ONE type of Study. Brain Surgeon, Pediatrician, Orthopedics, Heart Surgeon, Cancer Treatment, etc.
And Athletics...What if Kobe Bryant wanted to be a football player, baseball player, hockey player all at once...would he be nearly as successful as just being a basketball player?
And if Tiger wanted to play hockey?
What if Kirk Franklin or Donnie McClurkin wanted to be Death Metal singers? How successful would they be?

The world is full of Successful People that have found there niche. Thats how I want to be. I want to find my niche.

I will use myself as an Example of being a Jack of all trades is not always good. At the company I work for, I am the Design Manager. now what that job entails is this: Drafting, Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Quality Control, Drafting Standards, Computer Tech, Network Tech, Graphic Designer, Web Designer and Proposal & Presentation Manager.
Now, if I could stick to just one of these chores or tasks....I would be able to take that one to such a level of quality. but I am spreading myself thin in so many directions that nothing is getting the quality and attention that it deserves.
This is not a dream of how I will make money. This is REALITY. What I do on a daily basis to bring money home for my family. So when you can do it all....is it really better?

God Bless.

[Zelevo]

Jack of all styles and master of some.

[MaestroDivine]

Thank Div & Sabe. your thoughts are provoking and much appreciated. So...another twist... 
Should Music, as a Profession, be considered or thought of like any other Profession?
What if Bill Gates felt, that he needed to master every aspect of computers, besides Software? If he gave all his knowledge in 10 different directions rather than one, how successful would he have been?
What about Doctors? The Great Doctors are the Specialists. Specialists in ONE type of Study. Brain Surgeon, Pediatrician, Orthopedics, Heart Surgeon, Cancer Treatment, etc.
And Athletics...What if Kobe Bryant wanted to be a football player, baseball player, hockey player all at once...would he be nearly as successful as just being a basketball player?
And if Tiger wanted to play hockey?
What if Kirk Franklin or Donnie McClurkin wanted to be Death Metal singers? How successful would they be?

The world is full of Successful People that have found there niche. Thats how I want to be. I want to find my niche.

I will use myself as an Example of being a Jack of all trades is not always good. At the company I work for, I am the Design Manager. now what that job entails is this: Drafting, Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Quality Control, Drafting Standards, Computer Tech, Network Tech, Graphic Designer, Web Designer and Proposal & Presentation Manager.
Now, if I could stick to just one of these chores or tasks....I would be able to take that one to such a level of quality. but I am spreading myself thin in so many directions that nothing is getting the quality and attention that it deserves.
This is not a dream of how I will make money. This is REALITY. What I do on a daily basis to bring money home for my family. So when you can do it all....is it really better?

God Bless.

I think it depends on ...

A. One's desire to become proficient at every style.

&

B. The time that one has to devote to becoming proficient at every style.

See, I'm not against someone learning a myriad of styles. I just disagree with those people who make it seem like it's the only way to become a true & great musician. If I decided to focus on gospel alone - and I mastered it a point that no one, or few, have mastered it before; why can I not be considered a great drummer/musician? You could probably say I'm not a great ALL-AROUND drummer, but you can't say that I'm not a great drummer. At least, I don't feel that way.

Dennis Rodman's main skill was rebounding. He was very valuable to his team, and is well respected for such, despite his crazy antics on/off the court. Was he not a great basketball player? Surely he was. Was he a great all-around basketball player? No. However, that's not necessary to achieveing greatness.

For example .. I struggle daily with the idea of dividing my time up amongst the instruments that I love. I have the type of mind that wishes to focus on one instrument .. and become as proficient on that as I possibly  can. That instrument is the piano. I feel that, the time I spend on the drums, and guitar - I'm taking away from what time I could honing my skill's as a pianist. See, no matter what choice you make, you will be sacrificing another/others. I probably won't ever become an Art Tatum on the piano .. if I try to become Chris Dave on the drums, and Vai on the guitar. Becoming Art-like requires a monk-like, single-minded existence, by itself, lol.

So, I tihnk it comes down to what each individual truly desires for himself. Music is freedom. Don't make it a self-imposed bondage, trying to live up to other people's standards. In this world .. we have conformist's .. and we have non-conformist's. Not unlike in the 'real world', in the music world .. those who become great at what is held to be ideal by the majority, are given much respect and praise. Those who seek to walk path's less traveled and/or approved of ... are frowned upon for their percieved rebelliousness/arrogance/insolence/idiosnycrasies(choose one, lol). In life, I'm the maverick. Which is why, as a musician, I'm much the same.

Every man is going to be what he is. That, you can take to the bank.

~OD

[rjthakid]

I think Div and Sabian were basically echoing each others comments.  While you should DEFINITELY learn different styles of drumming (I LOVE Salsa, Soca, and Jazz, and I also play Bossa, Calypso, Reggae and some Funk) I think you should become adequate in ALL styles and become Masterful in one particular genre.  When you try to be great at everything you'll be great at nothing.  The greatest drummers are usually known mainly for one style.  They can PLAY different styles, but when you think Buddy Rich, you immediately think Jazz.  El Negro?  You think Latin.  Portnoy?  Metal.  Etc., Etc.

As someone who can play a little of everything, I agree that it's necessary.  Not optional.  NECESSARY.  But If you want to become truly Masterful in any one style, you should focus more attention on that one than the others.

[depondrums]

I agree with all that was said.