how to get phat voicings instantly

[diverse379]

this is a easy way to improve your voicings and sounds you get as you make your changes
If you are always searching for new voicings make sure you learn my two rules and apply this stuff people will be asking you what is that you playing?

this is a theory thing so bear with me.

I will do it all in the key of Db

you will need to know how to build a simple triad and or seventh chord and how to build a diminished chord

rule one each diminshed chord has forur roots each root when lowered produces a seventh chord

c diminished
is C Eb Gb A
If you lower the c you end up with a B7 chord
if you lower the Eb you get a D7 chord

you get the idea ok if you build a triad on each of the new lowered degrees you get four new voicing possibilites for any chord you like

rule two
your related diminished is locatedon the third of its dominant chord or V chord of the chord you want to color

This sounds complicated but there is a reason I had to say it this way in order for you to be able how to find the colors on any chord and scale degree

lets try this
Lets go from 6-2
in Db which is Bb to Eb

the related diminished chord of the Bb is A diminshed
Because the dominant chord of Bb is F and the third of F is A  Na mean

 if you lower each tone of the diminished you get Ab-B-D-F and if you put each of these triads over a  Bb and Ab shell you uatomaticlally have four new voicings for the Bb chord in the key of Db

lets try it

LH / Rh
lets try the Ab triad first

Bb,Ab/ C,Eb,Ab- Eb,G/C,Eb,G

The next diminished tone is B lets try the b triad over The Bb shell in the left hand

Bb,Ab/ B, Eb, Gb- Eb, Gb Bb, Eb, Gb

The next diminished tone is D
Bb, Ab,/ D,F#, A--- Eb, Gb/ Eb,Gb

finally we have the last diminshed tone for Bb in the key of Db
which is F

Bb Ab/ F, A, C,  Eb, Bb/ F, Gb, Bb, Db

you will notice that each time i went to a different Eb voincing this is because you have to remember to voice lead for smoothness and because each triad changes the type of 6 chord you are using it alters the two chord you go to

This is where it gets interesting you can do this on any scale degree

there are only two rules to remember the ones I gave at the top of the page

If you want to alter your 1 chord what are your options?

Well the dominant of Db is Ab and the third of Ab is C so the related diminihsed is C and if you lower each tone you get Ab diminished same as the Six chord so you already know what triads to use

try a 1-4 progresson Remember our four tones to build the triads on are
 Ab, B ,D F,
 
Db Ab/ B, Eb Gb  F# Ab/ Bb Eb F#   
 
( I Dropped the Db to the low F# while I kept the AB the same in the left hand)

The next chord tone is D
Db Ab/ F#, A, D   F# Bb/ F3, Ab, Db,

Db Ab / C, F, A,    F#, Bb/ Db, F, Ab

As you see the amount of stuff you can come up with is amazing lets all the other chords work the same way

i will just give the related diminished chords for each of the scale degres

in the key of Db

Db  related diminshed is C
Eb related dimished is D
F realted diminsyhed is E
Ab related diminshed is C
Bb related diminshied is A
C related diminihsed is Bb????

Was that last one a mistake no because in the key of Db the dominant of C is Gb because it is a half diminished chord by birghtright of course we alter it to be other things but it was born in the scale as a half diminished that is why i said to find the diminished from the dominant

so you can do this to any type of chord augmented chords
diminished chords
whatever try your own and

post up your own progression using this formula the possibilities are endless

We theory cats have to work hard to catch up all yall ear players out their Na mean this stuff will help turn those stale voicings into some real killer stuff


Fyi you can also do a run by playing two or three or all four of the triads over one shell I do it a lot on the Bb chord playing F, d, B and Ab over the Bb Ab shell in the left hand

I hope this all makes sense I would write out more progressioans but I want you to use your head to figure out the rest

God Bless

[4hisglory]

This is a deep post.  I'm gonna have to dig into this one.  Hope to be back soon.

[diverse379]

I am glad you see the power of this stuff I learned it from Barry Harris He has a lot of concepts but this is the only one that stuck

You can also play one note from the related diminished over your chord for color

Play a Db major7 chord and play a chord tone from the related diminshed such as F#

so play the F# note in the right hand over the Db major 7 and then play a F# major7 and play the Ab inote which is borrowed from F# related diminished

ok i will shut up now


Thanks 4 his glory

[truth4life]

I'm always into learning theory behind things.  I'm printing this out now, thanks for taking the time to post it...my brain hasn't prossesed it yet tho haha but I'm definately gonna look this over when I get home!  Thanks

[gtsjames]

Ima hafto print this one out too and try it when I get home....

[funkyfingaz]

Im trying dis wen i get home Lets see if this works

[4hisglory]

in the key of Db

Db  related diminshed is C
Eb related dimished is D
F realted diminsyhed is E
Ab related diminshed is C
Bb related diminshied is A
C related diminihsed is Bb????

This should be G right/??

[diverse379]

No not G

Why?

Because the C chord in Db is usually a half diminished chord

remember there is no G in the Db scale the g is flatted to the F#

are you with me so the dominant of C half diminished is the Gb

so your shell voicing in your left hand could be C, F# and Bb against either an A triad or a C triad or a F# triad or a Eb triad

Now if you usually play your 7-3-6-2-5-1- progressions with the 7 as a regular minor chord without the flat  5 or you play it as a dominant chord then by all means Use a regular 5 and build your related diminished on that so

in our example if you were to play the C chord as a major or regular minor with a G natural in the chord then you would use G as the dominant and build the diminihsed on the B

I usully play my C chord as a half diminished so i would build my diminihsed chord on the third of F#

Remember it is all about the chord you are using look at F

the third scale tone of Db

I usually play that as an Augmented with a raised 5   f ,A ,C#, Eb,
so I would use the third of Db which is F and I would use the triads D,g.Bb Db

I know this sounds confusing but once you begin to do a chord or two it starts to make sense and you will even find some voicings you already use

for example the Ab tirad over the Bb we all use that one as a sus chord

or the Btriad over the Db shell we use that as a Seventh chod as we head to the F#

This is how I would use the 7-3-6
Using the notes of the A diminished chord
ist the Eb triad

C, Bb/ Eb G Bb     F, A/ Eb, F3, A, C   Bb Ab/ F, Ab, B, Db

The F# triad

C, Bb/ F#, Bb, Db, -- F, A, / Eb. A. Db ---- Bb Ab/ F, Ab, C, Eb

The A triad
C, Bb/ A, Db, E,   F, A,/ A, C, Eb,,  Bb, Ab, ?  Ab, C, Db, F

C, Bb,/ C, E, G, -- F, A,/ C. Eb, F#,    Bb, Ab/  Db, F, Ab


I hope this clears it up

if I used g as my Dominant You would use the triads built on the Bb diminsished

They sound nice too one that sounds good is the Etriad

C,Bb/ E, G#, B   F, A,/ Eb, F#, A, C,  Bb, F, C/ Eb, Ab, Db,

So you could use the G as your dominant on the C l
Thanks for digging into these

I appreciate your taking the time with my humble contribution

God Bless

[sjonathan02]

All I've got to say is, "Whoa!" I'm gonna need to be at my piano for all of this.

[4hisglory]

Diverse, the line I highlighted was the "Ab", I wan't talking about the C chord.    I don't see ho the Ab and the Db could be the same.


Ex
Db  related diminshed is C
Ab related diminshed is C

[diverse379]

Sorry I ddnt realize

ok that is a good question and I wish I could answer it for you all I know is Barry taught that for Dominant chords (especially dominant chords in the scale) that you automaticlly use the diminished chord built on the third degree if you notice all the other chords were not originally dominant

So dominant chords use the diminished built on the third

they are the only exception to the formulae of looking for the dominant

what would you come up with if you used Eb as the dominant and used the G as the related diminished

you would get F#, A, C, Eb

my way is C is the related diminished but you dont have to lower the tones because they are already the ones you used

I guess that is what I forgot that the dominant chords the tones do not have to be lowered

thery are already set

I am confused now but take my word for it The chord tones you would use to build triads over the Ab shell are f# A, C, Eb

[diverse379]

I think you are right $ his Glory but this is why I am confused and not sure

this is the related movement on the V chord goping to the one

Ab F#/ A,C,E f#-- Ab F#/ B,D, F, Ab------Ab, F# / C, E F# A-----Db, Ab/ C, Eb, F, Ab

this is a 1-2-1 harmony movement using diminished instead of minor it is a block chord jazz thing and they use the what they call the important minor I guess it is the minor that preceeds the Tritone  substitution of the V chord I am not clear on how this works But I tried using the G and It clearly has the notes We use Like the F# triad over the Ab And

But the B diminished has some important ones as well like the F triad over the Ab shell

and The D triad overthe Ab shell is important to so I may have to stick to my guns on Using the B diminished to build triads an but you have shown me that A diminished builds nice triads as well

That is the beauty of this formula it is limitless how many ways you can use it and get creative I mean look at the difference putting a Tritone sub has made it openecd up a brand new diminishd chord which brings with it four new sounds

not to mention the minor 6 chord which moves to the diminished

and when you put a drop 2and 3  to pn it it sounds even better Na mean

chck this out It is a V - I movement using A minor six and B diminished going to the Db major I did a drop 2 and 3 on the two chords
Ab, C, E, F#/ A, F#------Ab, D, F, F#/ B. Ab----Ab, Db, F, Ab/ C, Db, F

Be blessed

[sjonathan02]

Ok, I am completely befuddled.


 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? 

[elio]

Lemme see if I can repeat the essence of it - Diverse, check if this is right.

First of all, remember the scale degrees (in Db:): major(Db), minor(Eb), minor(F), major(Gb), major(Ab), minor(Bb), half-diminished(C)
To colour any of the chords above,

1. take the diatonic fifth. Which means the fifth in the chord listed above. Note that for all scale degrees (apart from the last one) it's a perfect fifth (for the last one is a flat fifth, or tritone). For instance, for the VI grade (Bb), the fifth is F.

2. take the major third of the new note (F), which is A (two tones up), and lower it by half a step (Ab). You get a minor third.

3. build a diminished chord out of that new note (Ab). It's Ab-B-D-F.

4. in your RH you can then use any of the four major triads (Ab:AbCEb, B:BEbGb, D:DF#A, F:FAC) built from the notes that make up that diminished chord  to color a 'shell' voicing in your LH (a 'shell' voicing is the major7, dominant7 or diminished7 of the starting point). In this case, we started with Bb, which is a minor (see above) and therefore the shell should be a dominant7.

For instance, you can play, as Diverse said above, BbAb/BEbGb, which naturally leads into EbBb/BbEbGb (voice leading)

Did I come close?

[diverse379]

Dont worry about it bro it just sounds complicated but when you actually do it on the keyboard its easy

look at it this way

every chord has a related diminished chord this relative can offer notes to accent the given chord

so a c major chord has the B diminished as its relative  if you took the  b note from the relative you get a major 7 if you took the d from it you get an add nine chiord if you took the f you get a suspension if you took the Ab you get a flat 6

if you try this on your piano it will make sense so try it

now if you are with me so far each diminished chord has its onwn family of seventh chords by lowereing any tone of a diminished chord you get four possible seventh chords

b diminished is

B, D, F, Ab  if you lower the B a half step
you have Bb7

try it

if you lower the D on a B diminished  you get a Db7

if you lower the F on a B diminished you get E7

And if you lower the Ab on a B diminishd you get a G7

Again try this its the only way to see it

Ok if you are with me so far here is where my post started from

If you look at all the four possible seventh chords you have you have four possible triads based on these seventh chords that you can play over the chord that you first found the relative diminished from???

I know that sounds complicated but all I said was yoiu can play the E The Db The G and The Bb over C major chord


you have four slash chords

Bb/ C
Db/ C
E/C
G/C

so if you have that now what I said was that every chord has a related diminished so that you can find alternate harmonies for every chord

a basic rule of thumb is that

a mojor chords related diminished is found a half step below

a Minor chords diminished is also found a falf step below

a Dominant chords diminished is found on the third

oonce you find the related diminished you can either borrow a tone or two from the related diminished and play it with your parent chord and you have tensions and extensions right there or

you can go one step further and add the family of sevenths that belong to the diminished by lowering the notes of the related diminished


Now if you dont get this it is because you did not sit at your piano and try this or you dont know how to form diminished chords or you dont know what a seventh chord is

Thats ok find out and come back to this post It is a deep concept but not so deep that you cant get the idiea in a few well spent minutes

Finally the other idea I presented

was that of 1-2-1 harmony that we use in gospel all the time
this system uses a diminished chord instead of a minor

so in the key of c you would use this scale

C, D, E, F, G, Ab, B, C

and you would play 1-2-1 on the notes as you go up

C6-D dim-C6-D dim-C6--D dim etc

this creates movement so they and it allows you to connect the diminished chords

The possibilites are endless on how to use these conepts

as you see On my last post I did a tritone sub and did a 1-2-1 going from Ab to Db I used the A-6 because the Tritone of Ab is D

and A-6 leads to d I just headed toward the D using A-6 and B diminished and landed on the Db

while playing Ath Ab shell

Dont worry about all this mumbo jumbo

just under stand how to build ther related diminished and the family of sevenths I will keep putting up applications you will get it

[sjonathan02]

Lemme see if I can repeat the essence of it - Diverse, check if this is right.

First of all, remember the scale degrees (in Db:): major(Db), minor(Eb), minor(F), major(Gb), major(Ab), minor(Bb), half-diminished(C)
To colour any of the chords above,

1. take the diatonic fifth. Which means the fifth in the chord listed above. Note that for all scale degrees (apart from the last one) it's a perfect fifth (for the last one is a flat fifth, or tritone). For instance, for the VI grade (Bb), the fifth is F.

2. take the major third of the new note (F), which is A (two tones up), and lower it by half a step (Ab). You get a minor third.

3. build a diminished chord out of that new note (Ab). It's Ab-B-D-F.

4. in your RH you can then use any of the four major triads (Ab:AbCEb, B:BEbGb, D:DF#A, F:FAC) built from the notes that make up that diminished chord  to color a 'shell' voicing in your LH (a 'shell' voicing is the major7, dominant7 or diminished7 of the starting point). In this case, we started with Bb, which is a minor (see above) and therefore the shell should be a dominant7.

For instance, you can play, as Diverse said above, BbAb/BEbGb, which naturally leads into EbBb/BbEbGb (voice leading)

Did I come close?

Even if he isn't close, I like this explaination of whatever this is supposed to be. 

[4hisglory]

Diverse, that last exxplaination made more sense to me, but I still do not understand "how" to find this "relative diminished chord"

You said that in Db they are??

Db  related diminshed is C
Eb related dimished is D
F realted diminsyhed is E
Ab related diminshed is C
Bb related diminshied is A
C related diminihsed is Bb

What about Gb???

[Eggs]

I agree with Elio... you can accomplish what Diverse is saying by playing a major triad on the dominant 7th, flatted 2nd, major 3rd, or perfect fifth of any major or minor scale note in the right hand, over one of the shells of the same note in the left.

The exception is the diminished scale, where you need to drop the dom 7th, flatted 2nd, major 3rd, or perfect fifth by an additional half step, before forming the triad.

That's what I get out of Diverse's post, and it does make some nice phat voices, although the flatted 2nd is a little bold for me! 

This is easier for me to remember, than using the dominant method, and gives the same result, as far as I can tell.

Am I right somebody? 

God bless,
eggs

[elio]

Diverse, that last exxplaination made more sense to me, but I still do not understand "how" to find this "relative diminished chord"

You said that in Db they are??

Db  related diminshed is C
Eb related dimished is D
F realted diminsyhed is E
Ab related diminshed is C
Bb related diminshied is A
C related diminihsed is Bb

What about Gb???

4HG,
To a large extent it doesn't matter. C belongs in the same diminished as Gb - therefore you can pretty much swap them, in this context....

Diverse,
Great post! This really got us all thinking....

[diverse379]

First thing first The relative diministhed for the Gb is F
not c

your replies makes me feel for anyone who had to read mine because I felt like I was taking a test a big test

Second I am realy happy that you all took the time to digest this stuff and you all did real good better then I would have if I had to read this techinical jargon
I apologize for the complexity of the writing I dont know anyway to make it sound easier

third Elio was mostly correct except for you note to 4hisglorry about the C bieing related to the Gb
 and Eggs was correct in there retelling of my approach

The Gb relative diminished is the F
So Elio is not entirely correctbut he has a very firm grasp of the material  remember major chords relative is always a halfstep below the root so your available triads will be E ,G, Bb, Db
4hisglory
And Sjonothon I thought you were cool with me now you saying how i confused you and Elio explained it better yet you still dont understand I am deeply wounded 

I hope I covered everything I think

Except one thing I want some of yall to bless me with how you would use some of these ideas in some progressions Especially you 4hisglory you need to do that for me

post a few I would like to hear what some of you big boys would use this information
Na Mean?

I wqould really be blessed by that thank you all

And

God Bless