T-block...this one is for you...(anyone can feel free to answer)

[gaman]

What up!! Yall good Folks...

Can someone help me with substitution. (sub chords)

Im used to using a lot of major and minor chords. I have graduating to adding 2 and 6 to those major chords. What else can I use to sub for the major chord and well as minor chord? Im a melodic player.. so I got to have my melody when I play... Can someone please help!!!

[T-Block]

I'm not an exper at chord substitutions, but in my music I mainly use basic major and minor chords as well, the only difference is I switch up which bass notes I chose to play with each chord to get a different sound.  I don't just play the root of the chord in the bass, it depends on where I'm coming from and where I'm going.  I'll use a 3-6-2-5-1 progression as an example:

Key Eb  LH/RH

Version 1 (chords built off each scale degree, root in the bass):

G / G-Bb-D
C / G-C-Eb
F / F-Ab-C
Bb / F-Bb-D
Eb / G-Bb-Eb

Sounds pretty boring right?  Well, let's switch up the RH chords and see what happens:

Version 2 (same LH notes, different RH chords):

G / F-Bb-D
C / G-Bb-Eb
F / Ab-C-Eb
Bb / Eb-Ab-C  OR  Bb / F-Bb-D
Eb / G-Bb-Eb

Hear the difference?  All the bass notes are the same, but I used different RH chords to give it a more smoother sound.

[sjonathan02]

I'm not an exper at chord substitutions, but in my music I mainly use basic major and minor chords as well, the only difference is I switch up which bass notes I chose to play with each chord to get a different sound.  I don't just play the root of the chord in the bass, it depends on where I'm coming from and where I'm going.  I'll use a 3-6-2-5-1 progression as an example:

Key Eb  LH/RH

Version 1 (chords built off each scale degree, root in the bass):

G / G-Bb-D
C / G-C-Eb
F / F-Ab-C
Bb / F-Bb-D
Eb / G-Bb-Eb

Sounds pretty boring right?  Well, let's switch up the RH chords and see what happens:

Version 2 (same LH notes, different RH chords):

G / F-Bb-D
C / G-Bb-Eb
F / Ab-C-Eb
Bb / Eb-Ab-C  OR  Bb / F-Bb-D
Eb / G-Bb-Eb

Hear the difference?  All the bass notes are the same, but I used different RH chords to give it a more smoother sound.

Ok, now you know that you and I rarely (if ever) disagree on one of your posts. So, I'm going to pose a statement and then a question.

Statement:

Those aren't true substitutions (at least as I think of them); in your first example you just played the triad; whereas in your second example you played m7th chords (with the exception of the chord with the Bb in the bass and the ending Eb chord).

Question:

Couldn't you use RH tri-tones with the same bass notes in your examples? For example:

In Eb

G/ F B
C/ E Bb
F/ Eb A
Bb/ D Ab
Eb/ Eb G Bb


Whaddya think, teach? 

[Cmajor13]

substitution its kind of like a trick u can do using the circle of 4th or 5ths the chord that u want to sub u can look across the circle and see what chord u can sub for  i know u  might not have the circle of 4th or 5ths in front of u the best way to sub is to pick out the chord u want to sub  start  a half step up  from the chord u want to sub and count 6 this is often done in jazz.

key of C          substitution
7-3-6 ............... 4-3-6                 
B/ADF.....7        F/FAbCEb...4
E/EAbCD.....3                 
AC/EGBD....6                   
                                       

3-6-2                                                                                           
E/EGBD.....3 ....Eb/F#BbC#Eb...flat3rd
AE/GBCE....6
DA/FACE....2


1-6-2 ..................1-b3-2
C/CEGB....1
A/CEGA....6.....EbBb/EbF#BbC#...flat3rd
D/DFAC....2


2-5-1 ............. .....2-b6-1
DA/FACE...2
GD/FAbBD....5....AbEb/AbBEbF#...flat6th
CG/EGBD......1


hope this be a blessing to someone if u have any question feel free to ask ....be bless   
 
 

[T-Block]

Ok, now you know that you and I rarely (if ever) disagree on one of your posts. So, I'm going to pose a statement and then a question.

Statement:

Those aren't true substitutions (at least as I think of them); in your first example you just played the triad; whereas in your second example you played m7th chords (with the exception of the chord with the Bb in the bass and the ending Eb chord).

Question:

Couldn't you use RH tri-tones with the same bass notes in your examples? For example:

In Eb

G/ F B
C/ E Bb
F/ Eb A
Bb/ D Ab
Eb/ Eb G Bb


Whaddya think, teach?

I guess you can use that sjonathan02, I told you I wasn't an expert on the subject.  The way I look at substitutions is playing different kinds of RH chords using the same LH bass notes or playing a totally different chord altogether to add some spice.  I could be wrong, but that's how I personally look at it.

[ddw4e]

There's a rule of thumb in sub chords:

You can use whatever the chord you use for the 1 for the 4

in Eb

Eb Bb / Gm7 = 1
Ab Db / Cm7 = 4

You can also sub the 6 for the 1

without the sub
F C / Ab
G D / Bb
Ab Db / B
Bb Eb / Db
Eb Bb / Eb

with the sub
F C / Ab
G D / Bb
Ab Eb / Cm7
G D / FM7
C G / CM7

Try those!

[B3Wannabe]

Like DD said, you can substituted the 4th and 6th for the 1 chord. I like to use chords built off the 5th. Look at these variations, using a basic 1-4-5 progression....


C \ G-C-E
F \ F-G-A-C-F
G \ G-A-B-D-G

C \ G-C-E
F-C-F \ D-G-B
G-D-G \ D-G-C

C-G-C \ D-G-B
F-C-F \ B-E-A
G-D-G \ A-D-G

C-G-C \ D-G-B
F-E \ B-E-A
G-F \ E-A-C

(DISONANT)
C-G-C \ Ab-D-G
F-Db \ G-C-F
G-Eb \ A-D-G

C-G-C \ Db-G-C
F-Bb \ G-C-F
G-B \ A-D-G

C-G-C \ F-B-E-G
F \ E-A-D
G-D-A \ C-G-C

(MINOR)
C \ Eb-G-Bb-D
F-Eb \ Ab-C
G-D \ A-E

C-Eb-G \ F
F-C-F \ Bb-Bb
G-D-G \ B-B


....Take a listen to those and try to fit them in. Careful with the disonant ones, if you play in a band!

[bongcai]

I usually use tri-tone for chord-substitution.

A tritone is basically a 4 augmented (or 5 diminished .. depend on how you see it).

For example, if you play in C scale, instead of pressing the 5 (which is G), play the 1# which is the tritones of 5.

LH/RH 

G/FBbBD#

Instead of playing above, play the 1#

C#/D#FBbC.

What do you think, t-block?

[sjonathan02]

I usually use tri-tone for chord-substitution.

A tritone is basically a 4 augmented (or 5 diminished .. depend on how you see it).

For example, if you play in C scale, instead of pressing the 5 (which is G), play the #1 which is the tritones of 5.

LH/RH 

G/FBbBD#

Instead of playing above, play the #1

C#/D#FBbC.

What do you think, t-block?

I can understand this, bongcai. My question is where are you going after this substitution in the key of C? are you going to the 1; the 6; the 4; the 2; does it matter??? 

[bongcai]

Go to 1 after that, I forgot to mention that 

Here's another example.

Before I forgot, this will be used for progression 5-1-4 

Change the 1 into 4# (4# is the tri-tone of 1)

So originally:

LH/RH

G/FABbD
C/GBbCE
F/EAC

Change into

G/FABbD
F#/EG#BbD#
F/EAC

Notice that the chord that is being substituted by tri-tone is a dominant key.

[T-Block]

I usually use tri-tone for chord-substitution.

A tritone is basically a 4 augmented (or 5 diminished .. depend on how you see it).

For example, if you play in C scale, instead of pressing the 5 (which is G), play the 1# which is the tritones of 5.

LH/RH 

G/FBbBD#

Instead of playing above, play the 1#

C#/D#FBbC.

What do you think, t-block?

Honestly, that makes no sense musically or theoretically.  First, I don't know what kind of chord you got there, but it doesn't sound very good with the G or the C# in your LH.  Second, I don't see any tri-tone anywhere in that chord.  You need that to play C#-G to have a tri-tone.  Third, that chord doesn't really lead me anywhere.  It sounds like you in a totally different key than C.

Change the 1 into 4# (4# is the tri-tone of 1)

So originally:

LH/RH

G/FABbD
C/GBbCE
F/EAC

Change into

G/FABbD
F#/EG#BbD#
F/EAC

Notice that the chord that is being substituted by tri-tone is a dominant key.

This progresion you have here doesn't sound like a 5-1-4 in C, it sounds like a 2-5-1 in F.  I don't think you fully understand the idea of the tri-tone sub. cuz you not playing any tri-tones.  You need 2 notes that have the interval of an augmented 4th or diminished 5th between them.  It seems like you missing a note in order to form a full tri-tone.

To form a tri-tone sub., you have to play the dominat and the 3rd in place of you note.  So, if you substituting the note F with a tri-tone, you play Eb-A.  If you substituting the note C with a tri-tone, you play Bb-E.  Get it now?

The way I would use a tri-tone sub. is on the 2.  I'll give an example using a 2-5-1 progression:

Key Eb  LH/RH

F / A-C-Eb-G (2)
Bb / C-Eb-Ab (5)
Eb / Bb-Eb-G (1)

Eb-A / D-G-B (2)  *tri-tone Eb-A substituting for F
Bb / Eb-Ab-C (5)
Eb / Eb-G-Bb (1)

That's how I understand it.  Hammondman and others know more about tri-tone subs. than I do.  Maybe they can help you out a little better.

[bongcai]

Honestly, that makes no sense musically or theoretically.  First, I don't know what kind of chord you got there, but it doesn't sound very good with the G or the C# in your LH.  Second, I don't see any tri-tone anywhere in that chord.  You need that to play C#-G to have a tri-tone.  Third, that chord doesn't really lead me anywhere.  It sounds like you in a totally different key than C.

T-Block, thanks for your response. In my first post on this topic, I replace a 5 dominant, with 1#, which is a tri-tone away distance.

Here's some article to support my play:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone_substitution

"In jazz music, a tritone substitution is the use in a chord progression of a dominant seventh chord (major/minor seventh chord) that is three steps (a tritone) away from the original dominant seventh chord. For example, Db7 would be the tritone substitution for G7.

The reason these dominant seventh chords may be substituted for each other is they have the same pitches as their third and seventh, albeit reversed. The third of a G7 is B and the seventh is F; the third of a Db7 is F and the seventh is Cb,enharmonically B."

The key sounds weird? G/FBbBD# It's a split key, I raised the 9 and 5 by half step, I usually used it to end a song. It give some jazzy feeling.

"Tritone substitutions are also closely related to the alt chord used commonly in jazz. The alt chord is a heavily altered dominant seventh chord, built off of the alt scale that includes a flat ninth, sharp ninth, flat fifth, sharp fifth, and flat seventh. For example, C7alt is built from the scale C, Db, D#, E, Gb, G#, Bb. Enharmonically, this is almost the same as the scale for Gb7, which is the tritone substitute of C7: Gb (=F#), Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb (=D#), Fb (=E). The only difference is C, which is the sharp eleventh of the Gb7 chord. Thus, the alt chord is equivalent to the tritone substitution with a sharp eleven alteration."

This progresion you have here doesn't sound like a 5-1-4 in C, it sounds like a 2-5-1 in F.  I don't think you fully understand the idea of the tri-tone sub. cuz you not playing any tri-tones.  You need 2 notes that have the interval of an augmented 4th or diminished 5th between them.  It seems like you missing a note in order to form a full tri-tone.

To form a tri-tone sub., you have to play the dominat and the 3rd in place of you note.  So, if you substituting the note F with a tri-tone, you play Eb-A.  If you substituting the note C with a tri-tone, you play Bb-E.  Get it now?

The way I would use a tri-tone sub. is on the 2.  I'll give an example using a 2-5-1 progression:

Key Eb  LH/RH

F / A-C-Eb-G (2)
Bb / C-Eb-Ab (5)
Eb / Bb-Eb-G (1)

Eb-A / D-G-B (2)  *tri-tone Eb-A substituting for F
Bb / Eb-Ab-C (5)
Eb / Eb-G-Bb (1)

That's how I understand it.  Hammondman and others know more about tri-tone subs. than I do.  Maybe they can help you out a little better.

Again, on this one, I replace a 1 dominant with a 4# which is tri-tone away distance. If that 4# key sound awkard, replace it with this instead:

G/FABbD
F#/EG#CE.
F/EAC

Any thought, I'm open on any comment ..

[B3Wannabe]

Go to 1 after that, I forgot to mention that 

Here's another example.

Before I forgot, this will be used for progression 5-1-4 

Change the 1 into 4# (4# is the tri-tone of 1)

So originally:

LH/RH

G/FABbD
C/GBbCE
F/EAC

Change into

G/FABbD
F#/EG#BbD#
F/EAC

Notice that the chord that is being substituted by tri-tone is a dominant key.

That's actually a good substitution, because like you said, the chord is a tritone away. It's also a good substitution because the F# is a half-step above the F. That's a common lead-in technique. You can even insert your original 1 chord before the F#, and it'll still sound just fine.

[ddw4e]

I agree...It's like doing a 7-3-6 in Ab..

[bongcai]

That's actually a good substitution, because like you said, the chord is a tritone away. It's also a good substitution because the F# is a half-step above the F. That's a common lead-in technique. You can even insert your original 1 chord before the F#, and it'll still sound just fine.

Nice point, the f# sharp is also a half step above the F, which is a common lead-in technique. The thing is, for a tritone substition, usually the chord that being used is the split (altered) chord. If you look at it as a half step above the f, chances are you're going to play the F# major, F# dominant, or F# diminished.

I'm sure you already know that you can also lead-in with half step below too, with E dim, E dom, or em.

[B3Wannabe]

There are so many ways to substitute that you can fill a few pages talking about them all...in one post. I'm not a master at all of them, but I do know about them. Not only can you use tritone and half-step substitutions, but you can also use whole-steps, m3 steps, major3 steps...the list goes on. Combine substitutions with voicing variations, like all the examples above, then you have a plethora of things you can do while playing. I have yet to meet someone that uses or knows all there is to know about theory or applying theory. That's why it's good to learn from a lot of different sources, like here. Guys like Tblock, DD, Hammondman, Sam and others that are willing to share their knowledge to people online for free are to be commended.

This is all good stuff. I have a book that I write all my good stuff in; needless to say, I record myself too. That way, you can go back and relearn some things that you might have forgotten about. I just relearned something that I hadn't used in a while, the other day. Write this stuff down and record yourself. Take a recorder with you to church or when you visit another church. This will all help you improve faster.

[bongcai]

True dat, combine with the voicing variations, the possibility is really a lot.

I've been blessed a lot by this site too, this is the place where I learned gospel stuff. I need to learn more about gospel stuff. My piano teacher has a jazz background, so he teach me about progression, chords, reharmonizing, and stuff. However, he is quite lacking in the gospel department, that dude doesn't know about worship chords, lol.

[sjonathan02]

True dat, combine with the voicing variations, the possibility is really a lot.

I've been blessed a lot by this site too, this is the place where I learned gospel stuff. I need to learn more about gospel stuff. My piano teacher has a jazz background, so he teach me about progression, chords, reharmonizing, and stuff. However, he is quite lacking in the gospel department, that dude doesn't know about worship chords, lol.

yes, he does. You just have to explain it to him in his language. Instead of asking him about worship chords, ask about some smooth jazz kats, and I'll bet you he'll be playin' stuff that You know as worship chords. 

[rjthakid]

Honestly, that makes no sense musically or theoretically.  First, I don't know what kind of chord you got there, but it doesn't sound very good with the G or the C# in your LH.  Second, I don't see any tri-tone anywhere in that chord.  You need that to play C#-G to have a tri-tone.  Third, that chord doesn't really lead me anywhere.  It sounds like you in a totally different key than C.

First let me say that there are few people who deserve as much respect as T-Block does in this forum.  When I came to LGM I knew far less about music than I do now, thanks in part to LGM and T-Blocks posts.

But (and you HAD to know a "but" was coming after all those compliments  )

How can you say that something makes no sense musically?  The only way you can say that is if you saw a score and saw what preceded and followed those chords.  MANY movements, if taken out of the context of a song, will sound bizarre....But when shown in context, you would say: "oooooohh, NOW I get it."

[T-Block]

How can you say that something makes no sense musically?  The only way you can say that is if you saw a score and saw what preceded and followed those chords.  MANY movements, if taken out of the context of a song, will sound bizarre....But when shown in context, you would say: "oooooohh, NOW I get it."

I said it cuz that's I how I felt about it when I first played it.  I didn't mean it don't make sense at all, it just didn't make any sense to me at the time.  Sorry if I came off being offensive or rude.  I was just trying to understand where he was coming from.  I am still learning so when I hear something that sounds kinda akward, it takes me a while to really understand the reasoning of playing it. 

Now, I think I'm starting to catch on to what he was talking about.  I try to keep music as simple as possible, so it take me a while to simplify things that seem complex at first.  I'm not really into substitutions and doing a whole lot of runs yet.  I just keep it simple for now.  I still got time and room left to grow.

It's all good now!!!  Thanks for the pep talk rjthakid.  And thank you bongcai for your contribution to this thread.