OUT OF ORDER!

[jdholliday]

Perhaps you missed something.

If they are being bashed, ridiculed, mocked, and torn down in the church, why would they go back to that church for more?  Okay, so let's say they go to counseling to "overcome" their sexuality.  Do you think any reputable psychologist in the world would recommend they go to the same church that bashes them, abuses them, teases them, ridicules them, mocks them, and tears them down?

Again I ask, where should they go?

Only a no-self-esteem-having fool would stay in a place where they're being consistently torn down.

That quote should not be only for gay people, but anybody.

[LaylaMonroe]

So would you have to be gay in order to play at a gay church?  How would they screen you?  rhetorical questions of course.

No, you wouldn't.  I know of many, many gay churches; two of them have straight musicians.  They screen potential musicians the same way any other church would.  They want to know about your skill, work ethic, relationship with God, spiritual beliefs, experience, and personality.

I don't agree with churches that bash sinners. I've had a pastor that corrected me as soon as they realized I was sinning. As soon as I was corrected, the matter was left alone. Noone bashed me. Had that happened, I would have left. On the the other hand, I found comfort amongst friends because I knew they would accept my sin but it did not warrant my deliverance. A completely gay church seems like a refuge of comfort rather than a place of deliverance. I admit, I am not knowledgable on the matter and would like some insight.

Indeed, many inclusive churches provide refuge for gay people.  If there were more straight churches that provided that refuge, the inclusive churches wouldn't need to exist.  The reality is that many, many "straight" churches do indeed bash and abuse gay people.  The opinion that U13 shared is commonly held among many pastors: if they just stop walking and talking so feminine, maybe they won't get harassed in church.  Well, to that, I'd say: if WE start walking and talking like Jesus, NOBODY would be harassed in church regardless of what they look like, smell like, act like, sound like, or regardless of who they sleep with.

NOBODY should be harassed or abused in church.  Nobody.  And as long as we continue harassing people, inclusive churches will continue to be built, providing safety and refuge for the abused.

For the record, the churches I'm familiar with are not "completely gay" churches, as you referenced.  They are inclusive churches that basically accept EVERYONE as they are, and make a commitment not to bash or ridicule anyone for whatever lifestyle they live.  Most of them do preach deliverance from sin, and provide counseling services for those who want freedom from whatever sin they struggle with.  Their goal is not to make anyone feel GOOD about their sexuality, but to provide a place of safety in a church setting.  Every single inclusive church I know of has an abundance of heterosexual members, although the majority is gay.  In fact, the most prominent inclusive church in Atlanta has an assistant pastor who is straight, married, with children.

[Fenix]

**sigh**

People, people, please lets stop all this division and strife. Lets love, please...

OK guys i know what we can do to get the love back. All right everyone, lets gather in a circle, pick up our pitch-forks and burning torches, sing Kumbaya... and go weed out some gay people huh?

A family that castigates and burns gay people together, stays together. .

[jdholliday]

No, you wouldn't.  I know of many, many gay churches; two of them have straight musicians.  They screen potential musicians the same way any other church would.  They want to know about your skill, work ethic, relationship with God, spiritual beliefs, experience, and personality.

Indeed, many inclusive churches provide refuge for gay people.  If there were more straight churches that provided that refuge, the inclusive churches wouldn't need to exist.  The reality is that many, many "straight" churches do indeed bash and abuse gay people.  The opinion that U13 shared is commonly held among many pastors: if they just stop walking and talking so feminine, maybe they won't get harassed in church.  Well, to that, I'd say: if WE start walking and talking like Jesus, NOBODY would be harassed in church regardless of what they look like, smell like, act like, sound like, or regardless of who they sleep with.

NOBODY should be harassed or abused in church.  Nobody.  And as long as we continue harassing people, inclusive churches will continue to be built, providing safety and refuge for the abused.

For the record, the churches I'm familiar with are not "completely gay" churches, as you referenced.  They are inclusive churches that basically accept EVERYONE as they are, and make a commitment not to bash or ridicule anyone for whatever lifestyle they live.  Most of them do preach deliverance from sin, and provide counseling services for those who want freedom from whatever sin they struggle with.  Their goal is not to make anyone feel GOOD about their sexuality, but to provide a place of safety in a church setting.  Every single inclusive church I know of has an abundance of heterosexual members, although the majority is gay.  In fact, the most prominent inclusive church in Atlanta has an assistant pastor who is straight, married, with children.

At these churches, are the openly gay people allowed to work in ministry? Or do they only allow the ones who are trying to change?

[themidiroom]

 Well, to that, I'd say: if WE start walking and talking like Jesus, NOBODY would be harassed in church regardless of what they look like, smell like, act like, sound like, or regardless of who they sleep with.

Isn't that how it should be at church in general?

[LaylaMonroe]

Isn't that how it should be at church in general?

You, sir, have hit my point square on the head.  If "church in general" was doing what it should be doing, nobody would be harassed in church, and needing to go find a different one where they could feel safe.

At these churches, are the openly gay people allowed to work in ministry? Or do they only allow the ones who are trying to change?

Three of the inclusive churches I know of have gay pastors, so yeah, they're definitely allowed to work in ministry in those three churches.  LOL

The other ones that have heterosexual pastors, I believe they also allow openly gay people to work in ministry.  I don't think they really ask questions about the candidates' sexuality before putting them in position... when I worked for those churches, I never asked about people's sexuality before determining whether they were qualified to be a leader.  And because I was an outside consultant, I didn't know who was "openly gay" and who wasn't.  I had no choice but to fill positions based on merit, resume, experience, spirit/attitude, spiritual maturity, work ethic, etc.  I suspect the other churches do it that way as well.

[under13]

The opinion that U13 shared is commonly held among many pastors: if they just stop walking and talking so feminine, maybe they won't get harassed in church.  Well, to that, I'd say: if WE start walking and talking like Jesus, NOBODY would be harassed in church regardless of what they look like, smell like, act like, sound like, or regardless of who they sleep with.

So do you agree? yes or no please

If you dont act femineme or tell people your orientation, people wont even know you are gay. These people want everyone to know that they are gay.

Those who harass them arent any better than the gays. "They will know we are christians by our love" by harassing them you arent acting very christian. I think that a lot of church folks are homophobic and feel that if they defend gays, then people might question thier sexuality.

[changedman]

Personally, I don't find it to be sick at all.  Only a fool would continue to come to a place where they're being mocked, ridiculed, bashed, and abused, and where they aren't wanted.  Consider this very thread.  The OP started off by posing the question, "why do they flock to the church choirs" (indirect quote)?  That question implies that they are not wanted in the church choirs because of their sexuality.  Okay, so if they aren't wanted there, and they don't want to be straight, or are trying to be straight, but having a hard time becoming straight, what should they do?  Stay home?  Drop out of church?

I got news for ya: many of them do.  Too many.  And some pastors feel that burden, so they build open-door churches (usually called "inclusive") where gays and all other sinners are welcome.  To me, there's nothing sick about that.  In fact, it's healing.  They are shown love and acceptance.  Some of them are loved right out of their sin.  Some are not.

You gotta remember that while many pastors do, with pure hearts, preach the word that God gave them, exactly as He gave it: with lovingkindness; there are many others who rant, bash, and abuse people who don't look or walk like them.  These folks get all up in the flesh and use their pulpit as the perfect opportunity to say all the things they've been thinking all their lives, whether God told them to say it or not.  So, where should these outcasts go?  They're abused in the church (many of them), but they love the Lord.  Most of them were born and raised in the church, and can't find a place there now.  So, where should they go, Herman?

Re: Jay, I don't know whether he's gay.  You'd have to ask him.  I've never been in his bedroom, and I doubt anyone here has.  I could speculate, but why?

And uh, do you know those gentlemen whose pictures you posted here?  Just curious.  It's a small world, sis.

I agree with the fact that they'll have nowhere to go.  My problem is when they start these gay churches and start teaching that the lifestyle is RIGHT when God clearly says it's not.

That's the sick part.

It's like the gays lose either way.

[T-Block]

I agree with the fact that they'll have nowhere to go.  My problem is when they start these gay churches and start teaching that the lifestyle is RIGHT when God clearly says it's not.

That's the sick part.

It's like the gays lose either way.

EXACTLY!!!  Just calling it a gay church is demeaning enough, it just implies that they believe being gay is right.

[LaylaMonroe]

I agree with the fact that they'll have nowhere to go.  My problem is when they start these gay churches and start teaching that the lifestyle is RIGHT when God clearly says it's not.

That's the sick part.

It's like the gays lose either way.

1. Please tell me (PM is fine, if you're not comfortable saying it openly) the name of a "gay church" that teaches that the gay lifestyle is "right."

EXACTLY!!!  Just calling it a gay church is demeaning enough, it just implies that they believe being gay is right.

2. I've yet to hear an inclusive church refer to itself as a "gay" church.  Usually that designation comes from people who don't belong to that church.

So do you agree? yes or no please

If you dont act femineme or tell people your orientation, people wont even know you are gay. These people want everyone to know that they are gay.

Those who harass them arent any better than the gays. "They will know we are christians by our love" by harassing them you arent acting very christian. I think that a lot of church folks are homophobic and feel that if they defend gays, then people might question thier sexuality.

Do I agree that "if they just stop walking and talking so feminine, maybe they won't get harassed so much?"  Definitely not.  I disagree with all that is within me.

As for your last paragraph, I do agree with that.  But, please don't leave out the fact that a lot of church folks are closet homosexuals (or closet curious) and feel that if they don't BASH gays, people might question their sexuality.

None of that matters, though.  The bottom line is that you can teach, correct, and instruct in LOVE, or you can do it in a way so that people feel beat down, abused, ridiculed, mocked, and teased.  Christians should teach the way Jesus did, and that's really all there is to it.  I don't care if a man walks around with spiral curls, a Mac face, 4 inch heels and a patent leather pocketbook full of sugar.  There is NO EXCUSE for a Christian to harass or ridicule him at all.  There is no excuse for a Christian to do anything over than instruct him in the Word, teach him the ways of Jesus Christ (in word AND in deed) and minister restoration to him in love and meekness.  We should not take the "why are they flocking to our choirs" attitude, nor should we make them feel so unwanted that they leave, and then get mad when they join a fellowship where they feel loved.

That is my argument, that has always been my argument, and it will always be my argument.

[T-Block]

2. I've yet to hear an inclusive church refer to itself as a "gay" church.  Usually that designation comes from people who don't belong to that church.

Oh, my bad.  We accept gay people in our church.  They just can't hold a position unless they change their lifestyle, as well as any other person who openly confesses to committing sin.

[LaylaMonroe]

Oh, my bad.  We accept gay people in our church.  They just can't hold a position unless they change their lifestyle, as well as any other person who openly confesses to committing sin.

I think most, if not all, Christian churches "accept" gay people.  Accepting them isn't the issue at hand; it's how you treat them once they get there.  (Not "you" directly, but in general).

[Steely]

I don't care if a man walks around with spiral curls, a Mac face, 4 inch heels and a patent leather pocketbook full of sugar. 

Rue, you got me smacking my monitor!

That was HILL-LARRY-OUS!! LOL! 

[under13]

.

None of that matters, though.  The bottom line is that you can teach, correct, and instruct in LOVE, or you can do it in a way so that people feel beat down, abused, ridiculed, mocked, and teased.  Christians should teach the way Jesus did, and that's really all there is to it.  I don't care if a man walks around with spiral curls, a Mac face, 4 inch heels and a patent leather pocketbook full of sugar.  There is NO EXCUSE for a Christian to harass or ridicule him at all.  There is no excuse for a Christian to do anything over than instruct him in the Word, teach him the ways of Jesus Christ (in word AND in deed) and minister restoration to him in love and meekness.  We should not take the "why are they flocking to our choirs" attitude, nor should we make them feel so unwanted that they leave, and then get mad when they join a fellowship where they feel loved.

That is my argument, that has always been my argument, and it will always be my argument.

"Pocketbook full of sugar" now that had me rollin

Oh, my bad.  We accept gay people in our church.  They just can't hold a position unless they change their lifestyle, as well as any other person who openly confesses to committing sin.

Wow thats interesting. I thought that we were suposed to confess our sins. So I guess your leaders dont sin

I know what your saying though, I've seen choir member and musicians sat down for having a baby out of wedlock.
It seems that churches only punish those whose sins they know about. I believe that we are all sinners wether the
church leaders know our sins or not.

[T-Block]

It seems that churches only punish those whose sins they know about.

That's all they can do is get on people for what they know.  Also, when I say "sinners" I mean people who are practicing sin and not doing anything to change.  If someone is a deacon, sleeping with someone who aint his wife and proud of it, if my pastor finds out he will be release from his position.

[jonesl78]

You, sir, have hit my point square on the head.  If "church in general" was doing what it should be doing, nobody would be harassed in church, and needing to go find a different one where they could feel safe.

Three of the inclusive churches I know of have gay pastors, so yeah, they're definitely allowed to work in ministry in those three churches.  LOL

The other ones that have heterosexual pastors, I believe they also allow openly gay people to work in ministry.  I don't think they really ask questions about the candidates' sexuality before putting them in position... when I worked for those churches, I never asked about people's sexuality before determining whether they were qualified to be a leader.  And because I was an outside consultant, I didn't know who was "openly gay" and who wasn't.  I had no choice but to fill positions based on merit, resume, experience, spirit/attitude, spiritual maturity, work ethic, etc.  I suspect the other churches do it that way as well.

I am the last person to point fingers and lay blame, actually I'm open to a church that has a majority gay congregation. ( Although this is too much for me, to each his own) As a matter of fact, the whole congregation can be gay as far as I am concerned; but the pastor, the shepherd. The pastor should preach the word and live the word. I find it quite odd to actively live in sin and preach everlasting life.

my two cents.

[themidiroom]

Is it just me or do most (of us) assume there's some lifestyle or activity that all gay people must engage in?  What if you're just gay because of the attraction to the same sex but you don't act on it.
Let the flames begin.

[under13]

Is it just me or do most (of us) assume there's some lifestyle or activity that all gay people must engage in?  What if you're just gay because of the attraction to the same sex but you don't act on it.
Let the flames begin.

The same as if a straight person has feelings towards the opposite sex, but doesent act on it.

But Seriously, this whole issue is wierd. Some people will say that they were born gay, as opposed to becoming gay from being raped or turned out.

[littlelamb]

Again, a series of posts that are missing the POINT. Of course sinners of all kinds who are still in their sin need to be at church BUT HOW MUCH INFLUENCE DO THEY HAVE AT THE CHURCH????????????? They should have very little. How much influence do they have on the other people around them at church? They should have very little. How much influence do they have on your children? They should have very little. If they have so much influence that we are are tip-toeing around their sin so they will stay at church then it's wrong. There will always be a church that will let them stay in their sin. Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay.

There is a difference between someone who came OUT of the world INTO the church and has already been in that lifestyle. Then there are those who started IN church are now gay because they picked up that spirit at church. I'm talking about the latter. AND if someone comes out of the world who is gay and into the church and sees that they can fit right in without changing there is a problem.

[under13]

Again, a series of posts that are missing the POINT. Of course sinners of all kinds who are still in their sin need to be at church BUT HOW MUCH INFLUENCE DO THEY HAVE AT THE CHURCH????????????? They should have very little. How much influence do they have on the other people around them at church? They should have very little. How much influence do they have on your children? They should have very little. If they have so much influence that we are are tip-toeing around their sin so they will stay at church then it's wrong. There will always be a church that will let them stay in their sin. Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay.

There is a difference between someone who came OUT of the world INTO the church and has already been in that lifestyle. Then there are those who started IN church are now gay because they picked up that spirit at church. I'm talking about the latter. AND if someone comes out of the world who is gay and into the church and sees that they can fit right in without changing there is a problem.

Good points. And thats what i think it boils down to. Nobody wants themselves or thier children to be influenced by active homos in church.  There is enough of that kinda stuff in "the world", why should someone have to go to church and have to put up with this kinda crap?