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Author Topic: Again with the despair  (Read 6581 times)

Offline floaded27

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Again with the despair
« on: June 05, 2008, 11:33:28 PM »
today once again the nonsense with the P&W team has taken me over the edge. the coming to rehearsal with lists of songs to go over without even telling me in advance so i could learn them, having these side chats with the organist regarding what songs to do as if me and the drummer arent musicians as well, and then just totally being unprepared. i flipped on them in rehearsal and didnt play. i didnt want to bother trying to fake songs, and then when they wanted me to play a song that the know i rock, i refused to play. why should i just sit in rehearsal twiddling my thumbs till u snap ur fingers and i just start playing "yes mr. boss man sir". come on.

and the response from both of them was "i didnt know i had to let the musicians know what songs to learn". ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?! Like we just play a few magical notes and make a wish and all of a sudden we can play any song. give me a break. Thats your job if your a P&W leader. then when one of the ladies agrees and says that her husband (who happens to be my mentor, but plays for another church) needs the songs in advance to learn them, they say "we didnt know it took all that". Really, like we just touch the CD and absorb songs. seriously.

i got mad arguing with my aunt, who was one of those people, when i got home. i talked to my grandmother, my brother and at the moment chatting with my sister-in-law, all who are trying to console me. but im still contemplating sunday telling my pastor that im gonna quit.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline DRE07

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2008, 11:41:00 PM »
today once again the nonsense with the P&W team has taken me over the edge. the coming to rehearsal with lists of songs to go over without even telling me in advance so i could learn them, having these side chats with the organist regarding what songs to do as if me and the drummer arent musicians as well, and then just totally being unprepared. i flipped on them in rehearsal and didnt play. i didnt want to bother trying to fake songs, and then when they wanted me to play a song that the know i rock, i refused to play. why should i just sit in rehearsal twiddling my thumbs till u snap ur fingers and i just start playing "yes mr. boss man sir". come on.

and the response from both of them was "i didnt know i had to let the musicians know what songs to learn". ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?! Like we just play a few magical notes and make a wish and all of a sudden we can play any song. give me a break. Thats your job if your a P&W leader. then when one of the ladies agrees and says that her husband (who happens to be my mentor, but plays for another church) needs the songs in advance to learn them, they say "we didnt know it took all that". Really, like we just touch the CD and absorb songs. seriously.

i got mad arguing with my aunt, who was one of those people, when i got home. i talked to my grandmother, my brother and at the moment chatting with my sister-in-law, all who are trying to console me. but im still contemplating sunday telling my pastor that im gonna quit.
ACKNOWLEDGE GOD FIRST BEFORE YOU QUIT CUZ YOU CAN BRING STUFF TO YOU WORST THAN ALL OF THAT YOU JUS NEED TO PRAY PRAYER IS ALWAYS IN ORDER

Offline Bullitt

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2008, 12:05:21 AM »
I feel your frustration man, and I've been there on more than one occasion!!!  Through everything that you face remember that you're not playing for the people, but for giving your gift back to God!  People who don't play bass (or aren't musicians) will never understand what we face but don't let them break your Spirit.  Now that's not a green light to just missuse you but at the same time maybe try getting things more organized.

Having a meeting with your MOM, P&W leader(s), and other musicians.  Maybe have everyone agree on a list of songs so you can all be better prepared....it's worth a shot right?


Be Blessed,
J

Offline MrSteve

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2008, 12:11:44 AM »
We had the same problem at my church when my brother-in-law was leading. The thing was, he would send out songs, then change a few at rehearsal, and then change a few on Sunday as well. I'm totally open to him being led by the Spirit to change the service, but it makes it hard to adapt on the fly. I just told him during one rehearsal that I didn't appreciate it. I spend a lot of time learning the songs he sends out, and it's time I'd rather spend with my family if he's just going to switch them. He totally understood and now he tries harder to keep things a bit more predictable. I say just let them know that you can't do your best unless they meet you halfway. If they still have a problem with it, then at least your conscience is clear.
"Sing to him a new song, play skillfully on the strings with loud shouts" - Psalms 33:3

Offline seemunny

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2008, 01:28:30 AM »
Aww come on Fload!! Who needs practice Man!

Im gon tell you a lil secret:

All you got to do is, rub yo bass, and chant three times the title of the song, and BAM!! it's in the pocket! Piece of cake!!

Ok, im lyin'...but, that WOULD be nice!  :-\

Ok Fload, i think you got me man....Looks like you got a valid point there! Just communicate a little more clearly with 'em, and see what happens. 8)

Offline trsmooth

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2008, 05:52:56 AM »
yea ive have that issue and sometimes i still have it.....sometimes i feel as though when it comes to learning new songs, they forget about me as the bass player........bass players get the short end of the stick sometimes. just consult god about it before making any decision......hope all works out for ya.

Offline DWBass

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2008, 06:46:30 AM »
I'm sorry, I gotta know what I'm playing at least a week in advance. I'm usually straight forward about that from jump street! How can they expect you to know a song that you've never played or, even less, heard before?? Not understanding that at all! I say have a sit down with everyone and express your feelings first before quitting. Try to get everyone on the same page. If no success, it may be time to move on. Pray on it!
"Never Leave Home Without Your Groove On" :)

Offline dhagler

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2008, 07:37:04 AM »
floaded, I echo what everyone else has said.  I remain in prayer for you and your music department.

Offline uriahsmusic

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2008, 08:55:16 AM »
....man I would love to be in your situation....I have come to the understanding that people dont know what you are supposed to do anyway so why sweat it!

Just let me come and blow every time....If I were you I would stop kicking against the pricks as the word says and enjoy myself....play what you know and always give it your best effort.....many pro groups work this way....they have a basis for the song and expect you as a professional to get in there and make it sound like you have been playing together for years.....(you can blow..thats why they called you..handle your business!)

I hate it when I need to learn a song...note for note or a certain way...cuz the keys arent gunna play it the same way twice anywho!

...shoot!...give me the key and a little room....and thank me later!...I am looking for a church in Texas to play at now......not bass ...but guitar...but I'll play bass if I have to....

Offline BassbyGrace

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2008, 09:11:50 AM »
As a bass/keys player my thing is, why doesnt the organist back you up??  They shouldnt be as self centered as to leave you all hanging while they are in the know.  My choir tries to pull that sometime, and as the keys player I say hold up.  I know I can pick up things quickly, but yall have to remember I have other musicians with me (the bass player has only been playing 2 yrs).  Musicians should always stick together. 

And lets be real.  This is 2008. You cant tell me none of those ppl have email or some way to get the songs out easily.  Heck you can bout text documents these days lol.  You did say they were unprepared tho.  :-\  Be encouraged brother.  How ever you go about trying to rectify, do it calmly, with meekness and with professionalism.
Praise Him!

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2008, 09:52:11 AM »
....man I would love to be in your situation....I have come to the understanding that people dont know what you are supposed to do anyway so why sweat it!

Just let me come and blow every time....If I were you I would stop kicking against the pricks as the word says and enjoy myself....play what you know and always give it your best effort.....many pro groups work this way....they have a basis for the song and expect you as a professional to get in there and make it sound like you have been playing together for years.....(you can blow..thats why they called you..handle your business!)

I hate it when I need to learn a song...note for note or a certain way...cuz the keys arent gunna play it the same way twice anywho!

...shoot!...give me the key and a little room....and thank me later!...I am looking for a church in Texas to play at now......not bass ...but guitar...but I'll play bass if I have to....

Uriah, I agree with you. Floaded, I've been in these situations many of times. I've expressed to give me a heads up on songs to learn and I'll be prepared. When they don't, I sit in rehearsal and begin to learn the songs. I let them see how much time it takes to learn certain songs. I take up their time. They begin to get the picture. As Uriah stated, as musicians though, we often have to play at the spare of the moment. Case in point, when Dorothy Norwood came and did a concert in my home town, I was the bass player. The choir and band rehearsed with her that morning at about 11 am, the show was I think 5. In the middle of rehearsal, the spirit fell and we didn't go over the songs she wanted to sing. At show time, she wanted to sing songs that we didn't rehearse. I definately hadn't heard the songs, nor did all the choir members. As musicians, we fell into place and the crowd did not know that we didn't know the songs. A keyboardist who knew the songs, called out the progressions and we worked it out. So, while I understand your frustration, these situations only help you as a musician. Just last night, I played Joshua's Troop "Everybody Clap Your Hands" with a choir in a totally different key than what the song is in, on the organ. I've only played this song on bass one time about 5 weeks ago. I was only able to do this, because of yours of frustration and saying that I'm going to be prepared for all situations. I've also been asked to play for groups in concerts without ever rehearsing with them.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline dhagler

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2008, 10:31:03 AM »
uriah and ddwilkins both offered some excellent repsonses.

uriah, i love your way of looking at things. :D

However, I think that in the case of dd's response, floaded's frustration comes from the fact that these are the musicians he works with week in and week out.  As bassists we should strive to be skilled enough, versatile enough, flexible enough to contribute something to unfamiliar songs.  But we shouldn't have to do it every Sunday at our home church.

Offline floaded27

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2008, 10:33:18 AM »
ACKNOWLEDGE GOD FIRST BEFORE YOU QUIT CUZ YOU CAN BRING STUFF TO YOU WORST THAN ALL OF THAT YOU JUS NEED TO PRAY PRAYER IS ALWAYS IN ORDER
i understand u and i know. but its like how can i stay in something that discourages me to the point where it affects other stuff. when i go to church, im more than a bass player, meaning im not one of those dudes that feel "if i cant play then im not going" so i can praise God without being on the bass cause i did it before, so if playing starts to deteriorate my whole worship experience because of discouragement, then y would i want to continue with things as is? it needs to change, but if its not going to then what can i do?

Now that's not a green light to just missuse you but at the same time maybe try getting things more organized. Having a meeting with your MOM, P&W leader(s), and other musicians.  Maybe have everyone agree on a list of songs so you can all be better prepared....it's worth a shot right?

i tried getting things better organized for our youth day, but why should i do the leaders job if they're the leader? imagine if you went to work and had to do your job plus the job of the CEO, while the CEO just sits around being the CEO (in name only cause its u doing their job)? We dont have a MOM because nobodys qualified to be such. and we dont have to agree on songs, i dont need to have any input or say so in what songs they sing, i just feel that once decisions are made (which should be done in a timely manner) we should be notified.

Aww come on Fload!! Who needs practice Man! All you got to do is, rub yo bass, and chant three times the title of the song, and BAM!! it's in the pocket! Piece of cake!! Ok, im lyin'...but, that WOULD be nice! 

munny, u funny, but i feel like they might actually believe thats what happens if you told them that. like no preparation is required as long as u are excited to do it. but anything im excited about, i want to do well

yea ive have that issue and sometimes i still have it.....sometimes i feel as though when it comes to learning new songs, they forget about me as the bass player........bass players get the short end of the stick sometimes. just consult god about it before making any decision......hope all works out for ya.

yeah it does feel that way. i dont know if its the bass itself or the fact that ur not the organist. or the fact that the drummer can just come and play with no heads up or nothin so thats expected of everyone else. believe me im trying to consult him.

I'm sorry, I gotta know what I'm playing at least a week in advance. I'm usually straight forward about that from jump street! How can they expect you to know a song that you've never played or, even less, heard before?? Not understanding that at all! I say have a sit down with everyone and express your feelings first before quitting. Try to get everyone on the same page. If no success, it may be time to move on. Pray on it!

exactly my point. especially if i dont know that im supposed to know it! how is that not so obvious. my grandmother was saying that everybody dont think about things the way that i do, but come on. how can u not understand that? i may call that sit-down on sunday. i just hope i dont get heated behind others' blatant obliviousness.

floaded, I echo what everyone else has said.  I remain in prayer for you and your music department.

thanks. just hope u got a lot of time on ur hands.

....man I would love to be in your situation....I have come to the understanding that people dont know what you are supposed to do anyway so why sweat it!

Just let me come and blow every time....If I were you I would stop kicking against the pricks as the word says and enjoy myself....play what you know and always give it your best effort.....many pro groups work this way....they have a basis for the song and expect you as a professional to get in there and make it sound like you have been playing together for years.....(you can blow..thats why they called you..handle your business!)

I hate it when I need to learn a song...note for note or a certain way...cuz the keys arent gunna play it the same way twice anywho!

...shoot!...give me the key and a little room....and thank me later!...I am looking for a church in Texas to play at now......not bass ...but guitar...but I'll play bass if I have to....

if only it was that simple uriah. some songs u have to learn a certain way or its not the song. no u may not have to play it note for note cause u understand what parts are from the other persons feel of the song, but u still need structure. so u dont know the song, u feed off of whats being played, am i correct? so what happens when the singers are looking to you to know how to sing the song, and because u dont know it u lookin to the organist to feed off of his playin, and he's either not even there or he lookin back at u to see what u playin? theres nothin professional at all about that.

why doesnt the organist back you up??  They shouldnt be as self centered as to leave you all hanging while they are in the know.  My choir tries to pull that sometime, and as the keys player I say hold up.  I know I can pick up things quickly, but yall have to remember I have other musicians with me (the bass player has only been playing 2 yrs).  Musicians should always stick together. 
he backs up whoever is convenient to take the heat off of him when he's a huge part of the problem regarding the music department. how he handles things is part of the reason why things have been in disarray for so long. he'll fake it as long as he can get by faking it. now how can i fake it after someone else faking it? but they are unprepared the whole lot of them, and from other people i've played with (especially my teacher) i cant be like that or i will be replaced with no hard feelings.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline malthumb

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2008, 10:43:31 AM »
Floaded,

I'm sorta going through the same thing as you are, but I probably have a little more flexibility.  I don't know how long you've been with this particular church / P&W goup, but if you are fairly new to the group, I would suggest asking them to give you a CD of their more frequently played songs.  Then you can work on them on your own time and at least have a feel for the flow when they decide to pull them out at the last minute.

In my case I'm a little more flexible in that I let this particular church know that I would not be available every week and that we'd need to discuss in advance when and what I would play.  I still go to rehearsals even if I'm not going to play that Sunday, so that I can get exposure to the songs they are adding to thier repertoire.  I also take my Zoom reorder to every rehearsal and record what the keyboard is playing so that I can build my own lines on my own time.

These rehearsals are also fairly disorganized, but they do ask at the end if anyone is uncomfortable with what is planned for Sunday.  On the Sundays where I am going to play, this is my opportunity to say I'm not ready if I am not ready

So I guess all in all, if you decide to stay with the group, my afdvice would be

  • Get someone to get you recordings of the material that is in play.
  • Take a recorder to rehearsals and record the keyboard parts.
  • If you're not ready for a certain song, just say you're not ready.  The interesting thing is, as soon as you do, two or three others will say "ya know, we could use some time to tighten up that one part"

Wishing you the best with whatever you decide.

Peace,

James
FAITH unites people
RELIGION divides FAITH

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 10:56:52 AM »
uriah and ddwilkins both offered some excellent repsonses.

uriah, i love your way of looking at things. :D

However, I think that in the case of dd's response, floaded's frustration comes from the fact that these are the musicians he works with week in and week out.  As bassists we should strive to be skilled enough, versatile enough, flexible enough to contribute something to unfamiliar songs.  But we shouldn't have to do it every Sunday at our home church.

a little secret, my home church hasn't rehearsed really in months. I don't understand why, but we be putting songs together on sunday mornings. at this moment, I've been offered to play for another church. Some people just don't get it, so you'll have to work pass them.  If someone has BETJ, check out the show Studio Jams. Its a great show to watch and understand how to play at the spare of the moment like professionals. I was watching it at I typed this post.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline uriahsmusic

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2008, 11:26:40 AM »
if only it was that simple uriah. some songs u have to learn a certain way or its not the song. no u may not have to play it note for note cause u understand what parts are from the other persons feel of the song, but u still need structure. so u dont know the song, u feed off of whats being played, am i correct? so what happens when the singers are looking to you to know how to sing the song, and because u dont know it u lookin to the organist to feed off of his playin, and he's either not even there or he lookin back at u to see what u playin? theres nothin professional at all about that.

....heres the reality...and please dont get me wrong..I really do feel your pain....the identifying part in the song for everyone concerned will not be the bass line....once we past the 80's the bassline lost it's lead roll.....kool and the gang...comadors..etc.....I guarantee you...that if you asked anyone but another bassist.....the choir and audience would have no idea of what the bassline is....even the keys part can be totaly changed...as long as a reminder of the melody pops in ...everything will work just fine....
why am I saying this....

youv'e got to stop adding a significance to a situation that simply doesnt exist!....if no one is pressing you for this structure that you feel a need for....then try not to make yourself stress over it.

surely it would be nice if it wasnt that way every time.....but in your case ...they just dont see the structure as importantly as just getting the thing done in a musical fashion.

....the stress is gunna get ya dude! ;D

Offline jeremyr

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2008, 11:45:50 AM »
today once again the nonsense with the P&W team has taken me over the edge. the coming to rehearsal with lists of songs to go over without even telling me in advance so i could learn them, having these side chats with the organist regarding what songs to do as if me and the drummer arent musicians as well, and then just totally being unprepared. i flipped on them in rehearsal and didnt play. i didnt want to bother trying to fake songs, and then when they wanted me to play a song that the know i rock, i refused to play. why should i just sit in rehearsal twiddling my thumbs till u snap ur fingers and i just start playing "yes mr. boss man sir". come on.

and the response from both of them was "i didnt know i had to let the musicians know what songs to learn". ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?! Like we just play a few magical notes and make a wish and all of a sudden we can play any song. give me a break. Thats your job if your a P&W leader. then when one of the ladies agrees and says that her husband (who happens to be my mentor, but plays for another church) needs the songs in advance to learn them, they say "we didnt know it took all that". Really, like we just touch the CD and absorb songs. seriously.

i got mad arguing with my aunt, who was one of those people, when i got home. i talked to my grandmother, my brother and at the moment chatting with my sister-in-law, all who are trying to console me. but im still contemplating sunday telling my pastor that im gonna quit.

I feel you doc.  I recently (as in last Sabbath) retired from my position because of the something along the same line.  But mine stems a bit deeper.  I'm still playing on Sundays, but at my church there's no dedication to excellence and people are too content with garbage, regardless of the talks.

Sometimes you do need to remove yourself from certain situations, but since they know now mayble they'll change.  Sadly, that didn't happen in my case.
Somebody put me in the key of E#

Offline DWBass

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2008, 12:00:55 PM »
I'm with Jeremy. I prefer a more solid foundation with music well worked on collectively! At the very least give me the name/title of the new song and the artist if possible. I can do the rest but in my band leading days, I always provided titles-artists-sheet music (if available) and/or cd's. No surprises. News songs are never played without rehearsing them. Not a fan of open unrehearsed situations at all.

I still say, have a sit-down and discuss.
"Never Leave Home Without Your Groove On" :)

Offline jeremyr

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2008, 12:08:51 PM »
I'm with Jeremy. I prefer a more solid foundation with music well worked on collectively! At the very least give me the name/title of the new song and the artist if possible. I can do the rest but in my band leading days, I always provided titles-artists-sheet music (if available) and/or cd's. No surprises. News songs are never played without rehearsing them. Not a fan of open unrehearsed situations at all.

I still say, have a sit-down and discuss.

in my case they don't consider me nor the drummer important.  It's a shame too since we've had to hold service up serval times while the organist wasn't there.  They don't care if me and the drummer don't know what's going on at all. As long as the organist is happy they are happy (even if we aren't playing on the same page or able to communicate with each other  ::) ).

Somebody put me in the key of E#

Offline ddwilkins

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Re: Again with the despair
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2008, 12:37:43 PM »
Once again, I agree with Uriahl. Jeremy, I feel your pain too doc. I've done the same with my church. Beleive it or not, I'm the main keyboard player and don't play the bass there. I still don't get respect.
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