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Offline Wolfram

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Jazz Master Class
« on: June 26, 2008, 02:33:39 PM »
Ok... so you really want to work me :o)  This is for those of you that want to discuss things of the higher jazz power nature...  Meaning, this is the place for the pros or near pros to come and help each other work through voicing issues or arrangement problems or things in that nature.  I would like for this to be a little more meaty so that people are thinking about how to improve their overall jazz game and maybe taking that back to their gospel game and firing it up there.  There are so many highly talented people here that I would like this forum to be a crossover for them as well.  What if we take this song and voiced it this way.  Maybe that will be my homework assignment to you guys from time to time :o)  who knows?

Offline ifiwereu

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 09:58:50 PM »
Ok....apart from the chords, touches, and progressions I notice based on my 2 cents experience :) that all guys play songs differently. Some guys even with a few chords know how to economize and end up sounding better than guys with a more extended chord vocabulary. Let's take a simple ...well I call it simple but how do you play it? Let's try Marvin Sapp's "Never could have made it". I believe the progression I hear is

CMaj 7, B half dim, E dom 7 (I use a E 7 aug 9th here, or jus' plain ole E aug 7th), A min 9th, D min 9th or D dom 7th (9), F/g, F/A, G/B then repeat the sequence. Easy to play for the experienced musician if you ask me:)

Back in the day all I knew how to do was place melody on top and move parallel to the melody with inversions (choir parts:(. Although some gospel styles or songs still require this, this style blends nicely with a more jazzy style that harmonizes.

My personal likings for certain voicings are for example the ones with a 7th or third on the bottom. So on the B half dim it would be A D F from bottom to top, followed by Ab D G (all in the right hand for the B to E chord). Of course D min 9th is F A C E or C EF A  in RH. The left hand basically plays the entire chord voicing or roots with roots in octaves, fifths or 7ths. In jazz, the left hand has the potential to do whatever the rh does providing one knows how:)

That's basically my style. I have heard some more jazzier voicings that some of you may want to share.

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2008, 06:45:15 AM »
I tend to leave the left hand to chord using an A/B voicing pattern alternating the 3rds and sevenths as well.  I seldom if ever play the roots in the left because that is played by a bass player or your foot.  Now if I am going to play a la Erroll Garnor, I would block chord the voicings from the melody down in my right hand and maybe us a drop two or drop four voicing depending on the sound I am looking for.  I tend to look at my voicings more like a horn section so that influences my overall choices of feels.

Offline jonesl78

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2008, 08:09:26 AM »
Ok....apart from the chords, touches, and progressions I notice based on my 2 cents experience :) that all guys play songs differently. Some guys even with a few chords know how to economize and end up sounding better than guys with a more extended chord vocabulary. Let's take a simple ...well I call it simple but how do you play it? Let's try Marvin Sapp's "Never could have made it". I believe the progression I hear is

CMaj 7, B half dim, E dom 7 (I use a E 7 aug 9th here, or jus' plain ole E aug 7th), A min 9th, D min 9th or D dom 7th (9), F/g, F/A, G/B then repeat the sequence. Easy to play for the experienced musician if you ask me:)

Back in the day all I knew how to do was place melody on top and move parallel to the melody with inversions (choir parts:(. Although some gospel styles or songs still require this, this style blends nicely with a more jazzy style that harmonizes.

My personal likings for certain voicings are for example the ones with a 7th or third on the bottom. So on the B half dim it would be A D F from bottom to top, followed by Ab D G (all in the right hand for the B to E chord). Of course D min 9th is F A C E or C EF A  in RH. The left hand basically plays the entire chord voicing or roots with roots in octaves, fifths or 7ths. In jazz, the left hand has the potential to do whatever the rh does providing one knows how:)

That's basically my style. I have heard some more jazzier voicings that some of you may want to share.

I like to sometimes voice my "I" chord without hiting the actual root note in either hand. ex. CM9(13)     B E A/ D E G B

Offline jonesl78

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2008, 08:13:26 AM »
I tend to leave the left hand to chord using an A/B voicing pattern alternating the 3rds and sevenths as well.  I seldom if ever play the roots in the left because that is played by a bass player or your foot.  Now if I am going to play a la Erroll Garnor, I would block chord the voicings from the melody down in my right hand and maybe us a drop two or drop four voicing depending on the sound I am looking for.  I tend to look at my voicings more like a horn section so that influences my overall choices of feels.

What is drop two or drop four voicing? Im assuming you're talking about the number of notes that you are using.

Offline diverse379

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2008, 11:40:54 AM »
I tend to leave the left hand to chord using an A/B voicing pattern alternating the 3rds and sevenths as well.  I seldom if ever play the roots in the left because that is played by a bass player or your foot.  Now if I am going to play a la Erroll Garnor, I would block chord the voicings from the melody down in my right hand and maybe us a drop two or drop four voicing depending on the sound I am looking for.  I tend to look at my voicings more like a horn section so that influences my overall choices of feels.

you mention you use the A/B voicings in your left hand

I have tried this
but I find the sound is too muddy on the organ
I hear complaints that my left hand is too heavy


what setting do you use when you comp with the A/B voicings?

To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2008, 04:14:26 PM »
You have two things to consider in jazz.  You are 1) playing bass with your left OR you have the good fortune to have a bass player in your group.  In the latter case.  Try using the 8-4 setting at about 5 or 6 and then think saxophone or brass sectional bigband style comping.  In many cases, I play melody with my right and chord with both left and right to accentuate the whole band sound. 

The gospel timbre is much thicker.  It is the biggest problem I have had to deal with :)

Barbara Dennelein does a great job with her left hand comping.  She plays very rhythmic left and a fast melodic right...

Let me know what you think...

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2008, 04:27:33 PM »
What is drop two or drop four voicing? Im assuming you're talking about the number of notes that you are using.

Drop voicings are formed by taking a close position voicing and dropping one of the notes down an octave. A drop 2 voicing is formed by dropping the second to the top note. Thus, for instance, a C7 chord in root position may be turned into a drop 2 voicing by dropping the G an octave

Original orchestration : (Melody note is G) Bb - C - E - G

Drop 2 Voicing : E - Bb - C - E - G


 

Offline diverse379

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2008, 04:28:58 PM »
You have two things to consider in jazz.  You are 1) playing bass with your left OR you have the good fortune to have a bass player in your group.  In the latter case.  Try using the 8-4 setting at about 5 or 6 and then think saxophone or brass sectional bigband style comping.  In many cases, I play melody with my right and chord with both left and right to accentuate the whole band sound. 

The gospel timbre is much thicker.  It is the biggest problem I have had to deal with :)

Barbara Dennelein does a great job with her left hand comping.  She plays very rhythmic left and a fast melodic right...

Let me know what you think...

when you say the gospel timbre is much thicker what do you mean?

I will try this setting

usually I will have the 8 4 but pulled all the way out

i guess there is a difference

i play exclusively gospel but i do put a jazz tinge on it

so is this draw bar setting still what you recommend for left hand voicing
To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2008, 06:17:34 PM »
when you say the gospel timbre is much thicker what do you mean?

I will try this setting

usually I will have the 8 4 but pulled all the way out

i guess there is a difference

i play exclusively gospel but i do put a jazz tinge on it

so is this draw bar setting still what you recommend for left hand voicing


Please feel free to educate me on anything that I am not correct on about this part.  This is as much a learning tool for me as you.  Gospel voicing is polytonal at times.  Meaning the left and right hands are always in the mix somehow adding to the 'thickness' or fullness of the sound.  When I watch a gospel player play organ, I see the left hand chording and the right hand chording too.  With all of this extra tonal complexity happening, it is very difficult to get a jazzy comping thing happening.

When I think jazz comping I think three or four finger chords in the left hand, melody in the right.  I may accent the melody with chords in the right if I want to push a certain feel, but my right hand is the spped, my left hand is the band...  When I solo, I can choose to switch that so I can block chord a solo in my right and use the left as an accentor or percussive punch.  You have to remember that you must leave space....  Jazz fires require air... :)

Offline diverse379

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2008, 09:14:26 PM »
Yes you are right
I believe for the most part

the organ style in gospel

is right hand chord melody

and the left hand supports with smaller fragments of the right hand chord

and there is some time keeping done with the left as well


when you do this post maybe you should or we should

find a jazz song from the fake book that uses some chords
and progressions we can take apart then start to find hymns or gospel songs that we can harmonize using those or similar chords

like for example a player i knew took coltrane giant steps changes and used it to play great is thy faithfulness

it was sick

To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2008, 09:30:03 AM »
Ok --->  First Master's Class Assignment...  Let's compare the way we would voice this piece.  Keep the  chords to those written here (you may vary the extension for coloration but don't add or subtract anything.)  This way we can have a good way of seeing how we all think about left hand comping...  Have fun:

Offline diverse379

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2008, 12:18:05 PM »
Ok --->  First Master's Class Assignment...  Let's compare the way we would voice this piece.  Keep the  chords to those written here (you may vary the extension for coloration but don't add or subtract anything.)  This way we can have a good way of seeing how we all think about left hand comping...  Have fun:



great is thy faithfulness

is that the piece you are talking about?

doing the arrangement of great is thy faithfulness
To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline 4hisglory

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2008, 12:55:27 PM »
Hey talking about 'A Foggy Day'.  It attached as a PDF.  Do you see it?
:)

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2008, 01:13:46 PM »
There is a attachment of A Foggy Day on my last thread.  Let's start there.  I will post a hymn on the next go around :)

Offline diverse379

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 03:31:02 PM »
There is a attachment of A Foggy Day on my last thread.  Let's start there.  I will post a hymn on the next go around :)
oh I must have missed that

cool i hope i have that in my fake book
To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2008, 03:39:22 PM »
Does everyone see the attachment of "A Foggy Day" on the first thread of this posting?

Offline diverse379

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2008, 04:02:09 PM »
Does everyone see the attachment of "A Foggy Day" on the first thread of this posting?

i see it is way down at the bottom it almost looks like part of your instrument list so it is easy to over look

To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline 4hisglory

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 04:09:01 PM »
Does everyone see the attachment of "A Foggy Day" on the first thread of this posting?

How would you like the chords typed out??  LH, RH voicings?
:)

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Jazz Master Class
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 06:51:13 PM »
That would be cool.  I would like to see how you guys are using the left hand to comp while soloing in the right.  I will take what you put down and notate it to make it all the same so we can compare the styles.  :o)  If you want to email me notation that would be cool to.  I use Finale and can pdf the file here and post it for you :o)
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