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Author Topic: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....  (Read 5217 times)

Offline Wolfram

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2008, 03:15:25 PM »
Quote
I don't get what is so confusing. If i use a 2 or ii or II, it's are all the same thing.

Sort of.  The number 2 does not tell anything but location.  (this is just me here)... 

II means Major
ii means Minor

So when I say:   II - V7 - I it means something different than ii° - V7 - i 

I get confused when I see 2 - 5 - 1  because I am still trying to figure out what the quality of these chords will be.  I know that there is a two chord and a five chord and a one chord, but what kind?  Major, minor, what?  When you come to the jazz area, I will use my form of numbers....  When I come to this area, I am trying to learn this one.  It is hard for me because I am not seeing the big picture yet...

Offline Fenix

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 03:26:01 PM »
Sort of.  The number 2 does not tell anything but location.  (this is just me here)... 

II means Major
ii means Minor

So when I say:   II - V7 - I it means something different than ii° - V7 - i 

I get confused when I see 2 - 5 - 1  because I am still trying to figure out what the quality of these chords will be.  I know the are a two chord and a five chord and a one chord, but what kind?  Major, minor, what?  When you come to the jazz area, I will use my form of numbers....  When I come to this area, I am trying to learn this one.  It is hard for me because I am not seeing the big picture yet...



Oh ok now i understand. See for me, when i see a 2 or II, i immediately assume it will be a minor.

Your form makes sense though.
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Offline T-Block

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2008, 03:48:12 PM »
Oh ok now i understand. See for me, when i see a 2 or II, i immediately assume it will be a minor.

That's where u may mess up man.  90% of the time it will be a minor of some kind, but then u got that other 10% u gotta watch out for, LOL.
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Offline divinemusician

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2008, 11:20:39 PM »
Block I didn't knw all this.. 2 - minor 5 - () and 1 - major... see i am yet again lost... this too much for me to soak up right now I will tackle this after VBS this week...  :( >:( >:( >:( ;) ;)
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Offline Ladyn

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2008, 11:37:22 PM »
Block I didn't knw all this.. 2 - minor 5 - () and 1 - major... see i am yet again lost... this too much for me to soak up right now I will tackle this after VBS this week...  :( >:( >:( >:( ;) ;)

Hi Divinemusician,

Maybe I can help a bit with this particular question. When you see a 2-5-1 here you may assume it refers to the diatonic chords of whatever key you are in. BUT your ear should be the guide as to what you play. Those numbers are a very good starting point. Leading tones are the next key as to where you are going or could go. I personally just really let my ear lead me to what I should try (based on the numbers)

That 2 could mean any minor chord built off of the 2nd scale degree that fits what you hear, or it could be a secondary dominant that fits with the melody of what you hear.
*Remember that most of the time people are referring to a song they are able to hear, and thus apply that progression to what they hear. 

Let your ear be the guide as to what chord quality fits. 

I personally use a slightly different form of the number system here. It's called the Nashville Number system. 

I posted an example of it a while back. It basically tells you everything you need to know about a chord.

For example:  -2  5  1  means minor 2 chord to a major 5 to major 1 chord. 

If I place a triangle and a little 7 next to the number 1 then that would be a major 7th chord

1+  means an augmented 1 chord
b6 means a chord built off of the flatted 6th degree of the scale.
When there is a slash chord, I put the bass underneath just like a fraction   1
                                                                                                      3
I had to adapt my system so others could understand it even though I personally like the number system. I just think that  a system built somewhat from a  figured bass model seems to work best for gospel music given the endless possibilities when it comes to harmonizing a melody. 

So to sum it all up, we basically use our ear after we get the numbers down or we use our ear to get the numbers which will give us a starting point. A starting point that begins with the diatonic chords but could take you to many different possible combinations.

I hope I have not confused you any further! LOL I have a tendency to confuse myself at times.

Offline Wolfram

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2008, 11:04:54 AM »
I use that systm a lot as well in lieu of the Roman numerals although I have diffuculty finding the triangle for the major7 chords.  I got used to using the roman numerals cause there was no mistaking a II from a ii and a hyphen could be still used to separate your sequences.  That is the only differences between the Nashville system and the one I presented :)

Offline seemunny

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2008, 02:49:52 AM »
this is really good info to me.. so can you reply with Step 1. Understanding the Number system. How do we find the number system and how do we apply it to our playing?


Umm, in an effort to be concise & as brief as possible (Fat chance! lol):

Chords:

Chords have ingredients. Not (milk, eggs, and butter) but rather (1s, 2s, & 3s) or NUMBERS!!

example:

major7 chord = (1, 3, 5, 7)
minor7 chord = (1, b3, 5, b7)
dominant7 chord = (1, 3, 5, b7)

Where are these numbers at? They are located in "The Major Scale" or the (doe, rae, mee, fah, so, lah, tee, doe) scale.

Instead of saying (doe, rae, mee...etc) you would replace it with NUMBERS: (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

In the key of C, that would be all the white keys starting with C to the next C (C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C)

Therefore, if you wanted to play the major7 chord (1, 3, 5, 7), you would locate the Major Scale, and find the chord NUMBERS! (Left Hand on 1...Right Hand the rest with 1 as well IF YOU LIKE HOW IT SOUNDS. You don't have to play 1 in the Right Hand as well, if you don't want to).

It may look like this:

LH = Left Hand
RH = Right Hand

LH / RH

1 / 1, 3, 5, 7......(C / C, E, G, B)

or scramble/rearrange the numbers (invert):

1 / 7, 1, 3, 5 .....(C / B, C, E, G)
or
1 / 5, 7, 1, 3......(C / G, B, C, E)

You need a list of all (or nearly all) of the "chords" with their ingredient numbers so you'll know what ingredients are found in all the chords. I think there are lists here at LGM or various sites online that has them. Here's one i found some time ago http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/chordformula.htm
=========================================================
Just so you'll know how to find the "Major Scale" in OTHER keys besides C (the white keys),

THIS IS THE MAJOR SCALE FORMULA:


w = whole step
h = half step
root = your 1st note, which is the key that you're in. (key of C = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C)

(root, w, w, h, w, w, w, h)

This Major Scale Formula will Never Fail! Use it to find you Major Scale, so you can use your "Number System!"
================================================
If you locate your major scale, then put your thumb on 1, then play "every other" note to make a four note chord, since your thumb was on 1, it's called "the one chord"

If your thumb is on 2 and you play "every other note", that chord is "the two chord". Keep going all the way up to "the seven chord". 8 starts back over as one again.

In the easy key of C:

[size=12pt]One chord:[/size]

C / C, E, G, B

Two chord:

D / D, F, A, C

Three chord:

E / E, G, B, D

Four chord:

F / F, A, C, E

Five chord:

G / G, B, D, F

Six chord:

A / A, C, E, G

Seven chord:

B / B, D, F, A

Now you're back at "One"....very good!


Lastly, keep in mind...those seven "scale degree" chords that you just played, the notes of those chords can be REARRANGED in any way YOU want. Whichever way sounds best to YOU in whatever music situation you find yourself in.

By rearranging the letters, the chord STILL remains the same!!! (i can't stop! lol)

You should know this:

Those seven "scale degree" chords are each in categories, and here they are:

Tone 1 chord = (major)
Tone 2 chord = (minor)
Tone 3 chord = (minor)
Tone 4 chord = (major)
Tone 5 chord = (dominant)
Tone 6 chord = (minor)
Tone 7 chord = (half diminished/minor b5)

With a clear understanding of this information, you are now equipped with the seeds of Beasthood! Now, go forth and prosper, with a growl! 8)

Offline seemunny

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2008, 02:56:09 AM »
By the way, i'm sure T-block and others may have all this info at LGM in all the proper academic terms, but this was my "hurried" and brief "ghetto version". lol

But i still hope you can get something from it! lol 8)

Offline divinemusician

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2008, 03:09:59 AM »
By the way, i'm sure T-block and others may have all this info at LGM in all the proper academic terms, but this was my "hurried" and brief "ghetto version". lol

But i still hope you can get something from it! lol 8)



yea they do but i love how you broke it down down down... i understand that and will print it out adn apply it

ladyn thanks as well
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Offline seemunny

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2008, 03:17:05 AM »
By the way (again)...let me just throw something else in here just so you'll know:

Each category of chords such as (major, minor, and dominant) have many types of chords in them.

Meaning, the major chord category contains many types of major chords.

example: major7, major9, major6/9, major7b5, etc...

same with the minor category:

minor7, minor9, minor11, minor7b5, etc...

also with dominant as well:

dom7, dom9, dom9b5, dom13, etc...

My point is this: You can replace any major chord with any OTHER major chord, or any minor chord with any OTHER minor chord, or any dominant chord with any OTHER dominant chord.

And you would do this to achieve different "flavors!"...That's when you're really starting to take control of your SOUND!! REMEMBER THIS!!

But be sure to get the ingredient number to all the chords. That's like your chord blueprint!! GROWL!!!

8)



Offline divinemusician

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2008, 03:21:30 AM »
By the way (again)...let me just throw something else in here just so you'll know:

Each category of chords such as (major, minor, and dominant) have many types of chords in them.

Meaning, the major chord category contains many types of major chords.

example: major7, major9, major6/9, major7b5, etc...

same with the minor category:

minor7, minor9, minor11, minor7b5, etc...

also with dominant as well:

dom7, dom9, dom9b5, dom13, etc...

My point is this: You can replace any major chord with any OTHER major chord, or any minor chord with any OTHER minor chord, or any dominant chord with any OTHER dominant chord.

And you would do this to achieve different "flavors!"...That's when you're really starting to take control of your SOUND!! REMEMBER THIS!!

But be sure to get the ingredient number to all the chords. That's like your chord blueprint!! GROWL!!!

8)






thanks
DivineMusician
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My Praise is high and my worship is deep. God you have been so good to ME.

Offline seemunny

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2008, 03:23:00 AM »
yea they do but i love how you broke it down down down... i understand that and will print it out adn apply it

ladyn thanks as well


So glad to hear! I'm serious. You type so loud, i literally heard it! "PLUNK! PLUNK!"

lol jk...ty 8)

Offline musallio

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2008, 07:35:13 PM »
I love the ghetto version C$$$ 8)
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Offline seemunny

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2008, 01:22:50 AM »
I love the ghetto version C$$$ 8)


Well alright then! So glad to hear Mus! lol My ghettology was not in vain!



8)

Offline seemunny

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Re: The Simple Meat Of Theory?....
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2008, 02:05:56 AM »
Also, something else that you should be aware of, if you're not already:


In music, the numbers that you use to form chords go up to "13". Here are the numbers that are used in making chords:

(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13)

(You don't normally see (10 or 12) so don't worry about it. 10 would be the same note as 3, and 12 would be the same note as 5).


For chord ingredient numbers past or beyond "8", you just continue the major scale until you reach "13".

example in the key of C major:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A

or

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13

or


C1, D2, E3, F4, G5, A6, B7, C8, D9, E10, F11, G12, A13

Pretty simple, huh?...Good!

(note: Notice how both 1&8 are "C", and 2&9 are "D", and 4&11 are "F", and 6&13 are "A". Recognizing these "TWIN numbers" will become very useful and necessary when locating numbers for all kinds of various "phat" chords! Remember that!)

Lastly, remember this when forming a chord by using the "numbers":

If you want to play a 3, you can play a "high 3 or a low 3", it doesn't matter! The only thing that matters is the fact that it's a THREE!...or WHATEVER number it may be!

(Don't get locked into thinking that a certain number MUST be in one particular location. BECAUSE, AS LONG AS THE LETTER NAME IS THE SAME, THEN YOU CAN TRY IT OUT IN YOUR CHORD!)

The same thing goes for ANY of the numbers. If you want to play a 4, you can play it high up where the 11 is, or you can play a lower 4, the (high/low) register doesn't matter, except for "how good it sounds".

The sole purpose of using the numbers are simply to help you LOCATE the correct note. So if the 1 is letter F, that means you can play ANY F on the keyboard to form your chord. Just make sure the one you pick "SOUNDS GOOD". 8)
Oh Lord, what is this beastly creature i have unleashed!

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