Is one necessarily better than the other?

[floaded27]

One of my drummers friends came to my church friday during a rehearsal and we were having a jam session while waiting for everyone to show up so we could start. He came before so i knew who he was and his playing ability and he knows mine. I feel he's better than me and later on during the night he said to me "Teach me something." And i was like "You should probably be teaching me something. You're better than me." He said he didnt know his scales, even though he's able to do runs and chording and stuff. So i showed him, but im like, ur already using it.

So which is the better position to be in? One who has better skill on the bass (including technique, style, fills, chords, etc) but limited theory knowledge, or one who has a more extensive musical knowledge but not as skilled?

i believe it may depend on the setting in which one is playing, but for me the theory knowledge helps me better communicate with other musicians, play based off of written music and lead sheets, and create my own music.

[jeremyr]

One of my drummers friends came to my church friday during a rehearsal and we were having a jam session while waiting for everyone to show up so we could start. He came before so i knew who he was and his playing ability and he knows mine. I feel he's better than me and later on during the night he said to me "Teach me something." And i was like "You should probably be teaching me something. You're better than me." He said he didnt know his scales, even though he's able to do runs and chording and stuff. So i showed him, but im like, ur already using it.

So which is the better position to be in? One who has better skill on the bass (including technique, style, fills, chords, etc) but limited theory knowledge, or one who has a more extensive musical knowledge but not as skilled?

i believe it may depend on the setting in which one is playing, but for me the theory knowledge helps me better communicate with other musicians, play based off of written music and lead sheets, and create my own music.

honestly I'm going to have to say that the guy with more extensive theory knowledge is better off.  And here's why

If you have more extensive music theory knowledge whether you know it or now you have more musical knowledge, HOWEVER you might not be using it. 

Someone that knows theory well can go anywhere and pretty much just sit in (I've done it several times).  This is how you get guys that come and kill on the first take.  It's a been there done that kind of them. 

You have to learn how to EXPRESS that knowledge.  That's the biggest thing that separates you from the other guy.  You already know more than him, you just have to learn how to use it.  That includes phrasing, rhythm, spacing, and timing.

The guy without theory knowledge won't be able to pick up a song (for the most part) as fast as a guy that picks out the same old progression and realizes that there are just filler notes in between to fill up the sound. 

[dhagler]

I agree with Jeremy.  Last night I played with three different choirs and I was able to pretty much catch on to the songs because of the very limited knowledge I have about progressions.  I might not have been as expressive, and my fills may not have been as good as another player but I was on tempo and on key and pretty much in the pocket with the drummer.

On the other hand, there's much the two of you can teach each other.  I meet many bassists who can't read music but will show me runs and fills that are applicable anywhere.

[ddwilkins]

Hands down, the person with the knowledge of theory. Like Jeremy, I've been in situations where i didn't know songs, but because I knew theory, understand progressions how certain chords lead to a certain change, I was able to wing it and make it do. Recently, I had an impromptu audition this way. The bass player asked me to sit at the keyboard, the praise and worship leader was going over some songs for an upcoming workshop. I sat down not knowing any of the songs. The bass player was calling out chords and progressions and I made it through. Well, this past Tuesday, my keyboard is set up at that church now ready for me to play this sunday because i've been invited to join that church's band. I'm happy because I was already looking for a new church home where I can use my gift. If I didn't have the knowledge, I wouldn't have been able to do that. EDITED - I took out my scenario original scenario so that I don't offend anyone. If you didn't get a chance to read it, then I won't bring it back up.

[Groovesmith]

Ouch!!!!!!! That was uncalled for.  I just got my GED and love music!!!!  (thinking out loud) Does Canada have something equivalent to a GED? 

I like what Jeremy said another metaphor using the infamous language theory.  You know how to read and have read more books than your high school dropout friend, but he can caress the heck out of the english language, while you always get tongue tied.  With some practice you should be dealing with his case, cause your have a deeper reserve and understand how words are strung together.  While he has a natural nack for speech he just a wordsmith. But the tables can turn.

People who are educated just sound and appear smarter, if you dont study the WORD you cant know it while some people can just go up in the pulpit and exhort but soon enough it will show that their knowledge is limited and the dont study while the guy who studies all the time starts to shine even though he isnt a natural speaker.

Dont read to deep into this!!!!!!!  It only goes so far.

[Groovesmith]

I just read Cordney's thing at the bottom of his page and it says" Hard work beats talant, when talant refuses to work hard"  That speaks volumes... What does that saying mean?  The tough part is how do you put that knowledge into action?

[ddwilkins]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my scenario, I removed it from my original post. Again, I apologize.

[BassbyGrace]

honestly I'm going to have to say that the guy with more extensive theory knowledge is better off.  And here's why

If you have more extensive music theory knowledge whether you know it or now you have more musical knowledge, HOWEVER you might not be using it. 

Someone that knows theory well can go anywhere and pretty much just sit in (I've done it several times).  This is how you get guys that come and kill on the first take.  It's a been there done that kind of them. 

You have to learn how to EXPRESS that knowledge.  That's the biggest thing that separates you from the other guy.  You already know more than him, you just have to learn how to use it.  That includes phrasing, rhythm, spacing, and timing.

The guy without theory knowledge won't be able to pick up a song (for the most part) as fast as a guy that picks out the same old progression and realizes that there are just filler notes in between to fill up the sound. 

I have to disagree, even if Im in the minority.  Mainly because of this.  Pocket, rhythm, spacing, phrasing, and timing (and some others) have nothing to do with theory (and they are soo unrecognized its crazy).  Im well versed in theory now, but I played without really utilizing theory for atleast my first 10-12 yrs and I was always getting called.  I mean I was gigging with all kinds of groups from jazz to salsa to whatever.  I think in our realm we take some of those other elements for granted, because growing up in church, we mostly get alot of those, esp. groove engrained even if we dont start on an instrument for a while.  And I mean lets be real (esp. all my theory heads) its ALOT easier to learn theory(a fixed area) than it is to learn how to lock with the drummer (a more variable area) or the difference between playing a Hez song and a Canton Spiritual song.  There are alot of advanced players that still dont do that well.  Ive met ALOT of musicians that can tap dance theory in and out, but could groove to save their life or play in a specific style.  And on the other end, Ive actually taught a person theory in ten minutes at a GC.  I know I sound anti-theory alot, but thats not the case.  I will always encourage someone to learn theory because you should try to obtain all you can, and Im not trying to degrade the importance of theory (because MOST of what others say is true, I just want to emphasize the importance of the other elements.

[jeremyr]

I have to disagree, even if Im in the minority.  Mainly because of this.  Pocket, rhythm, spacing, phrasing, and timing (and some others) have nothing to do with theory (and they are soo unrecognized its crazy).

You can have a pocket, but if you're hitting the wrong notes it doesn't matter.

You can hit the right notes and play very simple and sound great.

[Groovesmith]

DD, I sent you a PM.  I wasnt offended by your post.  I thought it was funny actually.  I thought my whole does Canada have a GED equivalency showed that.  I graduated from high school and got a biomedical engineering degree... so I was amused by that.  But now after you apologized I can see how that could be thought of as offensive.

[floaded27]

to me, i believe theory isnt limited to whats commonly printed in books or listed on websites. once you can formulate a concept in an attempt to explain why something is what it is or does what it does, then thats theory. If someone says "hey bass player, i want this song to have a reggae feel" and you understand why (or even ask and get explained to you) what makes a reggae feel just that, then thats a piece of theory. Honestly, I cant understand why a person who claims ultimate knowledge of music theory cant groove to save his life. Understanding why a groove grooves is a fundamental part of theory, and that should be the first thing you try to learn how to apply before anything else. Apparently he has the priorities of his music theory out of order.

So i guess its one one extreme you got a guy that knows stuff but dont know how to apply it and on the other end you got a guy who applies stuff but doesnt know what he's applying. The ultimate goal is to be consistently in the middle as you grow; as you learn more stuff you learn how to apply it and be capable of doing so.

im just a person that cant just play stuff and not understand why im playing that and why it works. and for me thats expanding my theory. just find it a bit difficult to go the other way around. lol

[BassbyGrace]

You can have a pocket, but if you're hitting the wrong notes it doesn't matter.

You can hit the right notes and play very simple and sound great.

True, but lets look at the original question.

So which is the better position to be in? One who has better skill on the bass (including technique, style, fills, chords, etc) but limited theory knowledge, or one who has a more extensive musical knowledge but not as skilled?

I'd rather have a cat that can groove the roof off with a pentatonic based solo, than a cat that cant really groove as well but KNOWS more scales or what have you.  He also said that the first had some theory.

[Ramar]

to me, i believe theory isnt limited to whats commonly printed in books or listed on websites. once you can formulate a concept in an attempt to explain why something is what it is or does what it does, then thats theory. If someone says "hey bass player, i want this song to have a reggae feel" and you understand why (or even ask and get explained to you) what makes a reggae feel just that, then thats a piece of theory. Honestly, I cant understand why a person who claims ultimate knowledge of music theory cant groove to save his life. Understanding why a groove grooves is a fundamental part of theory, and that should be the first thing you try to learn how to apply before anything else. Apparently he has the priorities of his music theory out of order.

So i guess its one one extreme you got a guy that knows stuff but dont know how to apply it and on the other end you got a guy who applies stuff but doesnt know what he's applying. The ultimate goal is to be consistently in the middle as you grow; as you learn more stuff you learn how to apply it and be capable of doing so.

im just a person that cant just play stuff and not understand why im playing that and why it works. and for me thats expanding my theory. just find it a bit difficult to go the other way around. lol

Believe it or not most black folks know theory... they may not know what a Gm7 is but if a soloist is singing they know what chord to play. Improvisation/playing by ear is theory...  It's your own interpretation of what you feel and hear.

[Torch7]

The funny thing about theory, a lot of folks learn just enough to get by, but to me, the more you learn, you realize there is so much more to learn...

I was just having a discussion with my brother, Sean, and he began to break down why certain movements work, and the application borrowed chords, and my tongue just dropped, to the floor.    I immediately realized I have so much more to learn. 

And just when I began to think, he was like the YODA of music theory, he began to rave about a friend of his that invokes the same reaction from him that I just had...

Now back to the original question.  I tend to lean toward knowing theory, but not only knowing it, also being able to apply it to your playing.  A band that communicate concepts in my opinion is a dangerous band.

[Torch7]

I'd rather have a cat that can groove the roof off with a pentatonic based solo, than a cat that cant really groove as well but KNOWS more scales or what have you.  He also said that the first had some theory.

One doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the other.  I know guys who can do both.

Wouldn't you agree that the later opens up more possibilities.

Believe it or not most black folks know theory... they may not know what a Gm7 is but if a soloist is singing they know what chord to play.

Not trying to blast, but don't you think that statement is a tad bit of a GENERALIZATION?

Improvisation/playing by ear is theory...  It's your own interpretation of what you feel and hear.

Theory only becomes theory when study is applied to it.  So in a broad sense, when you say interpretation it could possibly fit under theory.

However most of the time, that definition wouldn't fly.

[Ramar]

Not trying to blast, but don't you think that statement is a tad bit of a GENERALIZATION?

Yes, i guess it is... thanks for pointing that out. Apologies to the offended ones!!

Theory only becomes theory when study is applied to it.  So in a broad sense, when you say interpretation it could possibly fit under theory.
However most of the time, that definition wouldn't fly.

Once again you are correct. Apologies to the offended ones again!!!

[BassbyGrace]

to me, i believe theory isnt limited to whats commonly printed in books or listed on websites. once you can formulate a concept in an attempt to explain why something is what it is or does what it does, then thats theory. If someone says "hey bass player, i want this song to have a reggae feel" and you understand why (or even ask and get explained to you) what makes a reggae feel just that, then thats a piece of theory. Honestly, I cant understand why a person who claims ultimate knowledge of music theory cant groove to save his life. Understanding why a groove grooves is a fundamental part of theory, and that should be the first thing you try to learn how to apply before anything else. Apparently he has the priorities of his music theory out of order.

So i guess its one one extreme you got a guy that knows stuff but dont know how to apply it and on the other end you got a guy who applies stuff but doesnt know what he's applying. The ultimate goal is to be consistently in the middle as you grow; as you learn more stuff you learn how to apply it and be capable of doing so.

im just a person that cant just play stuff and not understand why im playing that and why it works. and for me thats expanding my theory. just find it a bit difficult to go the other way around. lol

The thing is floaded, music theory is only based on notes and their relationships.  Ive said before, I have about 6 diff theory books, some from college, and none of them cover the elements Ive previously stated (try looking for "Funk shuffle" in one).  Im surrounded by amazing musicians of different backgrounds everyday, and I felt like you, WHY cant they groove or hear this is supposed to be that, or etc.  Thats why.  Their education to application ratio is off.  You know what?  You can know theory and have never picked up an instrument.     Ive learned Baroque music is categorized by seventh chords and terraced dynamics.  That tells me nothing about being in tune with the ensemble. 

Check this out.  The other bass player in my band is a Berkeley grad.  He explains stuff to me that makes my head hurt lol.  But I can take two notes and groove him out the water (quote from him).  you know who the cats in the band call to play outside?  Exactly.

[BassbyGrace]

One doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the other.  I know guys who can do both.

Wouldn't you agree that the later opens up more possibilities.

Youre absolutely right Torch, but in his scenario, they are both one sided in contrasting talents.  I would not agree with the second statement because like I said, it takes a shorter time for the one person to learn theory than the other to learn skill, style, etc.  To have both would be the ideal goal of course.   

[twest45]

I think some people get theory confused with experience.  I believe the more you practice and play the more experience you gain and therefore you start recognizing certain changes.  I believe theory is good but it can on take you you so far.  I believe experience can take you further.  I know a gut that know theory like the English language but can't play not one instrument.  Some people just have that musical talent.  Some people can hear a chord and call out every note and not know a lick of theory.  I think we put to much importance on theory and not enough on just playing from your heart.  When I play I may go back on my theory a little but I let my expirence and heart lead me and I always seem to hit the right notes.  Sometimes the pro people I play with do something and theory can't even explain what they did.  Just like sports.  I was a stand out football player (tore ACL).   Some people just have talent and no technique but can make all the plays.  Then some people have perfect tech but not much talent and cant make a play to save their life.  But they have good knowledge about  football and good tech. but just don't have the talent  Those type of ppl turn out to make good coaches.

[dhagler]

I teach math for a living.  There are folks out there who know the math but can't explain it so that a student can understand it.  So it may be with this.  What good is knowing scales, modes, progressions, etc., if you can't apply it?  Or, if you are in a teaching position, you can't teach someone how to apply it?  I can read music, I know progressions, I can pick up most things by ear.  I don't know modes, however, but I would like to.  I would also like to learn to build walking bass lines so that I can improve as a jazz musician.

On a positive note, there are so many on this site who know theory and can show us how to apply it to our playing.  I am thankful to LGM for those guys and ladies.