1-4-5's and 2-5-1's where exactly do they come in.

[JoyCH]

Look at it like this, for example:

If I am practicing the scale of "F" which is;
F  G   A   Bb  C  D   E  F  notes/fingers
1  2   3   4     5  6   7  8

 1 - FAC is the major chord for F   (from the 1-4-5 pattern)
 4 - BbDF is a B flat chord
 5 - CEG is a major chord in C

So, by playing a note or using a pattern or using a chord in any scale you are playing in several keys and don't realize it.  :oops:  So, just by playing in the key of F you can actually play 7 different keys by playing the different notes.

Okay - you need me to go a little bit further, for example:

Key of F which is the first note, you would list every chord you can for F, for G list every chord you can play for G and so on. These chords can be used over and over again in other keys. Just list out the scale and do the same thing I just did above.  You get the idea for below,

Key of  C  scale/chords      

C     CEG   EGC  GCE   CEbGBb  etc.
D     DBG   BDG  GDB   DBbG     etc.
E      EGC  GCE   CEG   EG#C     etc.
F      FAC   ACF   CFA    FBbD      etc.
G     GBD   BDG  DGB   GBbD     etc.

So you see all the different chords and keys that apply to other keys.  If you use this theory which is called listed tones and play your patterns you can figure out alot songs by listing or changing the pattern.

Hope this helps.

Joy

[4hisglory]

Man, where have I been?? I've been missing out on this discussion.  

Al and Joy have pretty much explained it but I guess we need to show application.  Maybe someone should pick a song to apply some of these concept to it.

[sjonathan02]

4Hisglory, it's obvious you have that name for a reason, great idea! Now, here's something that I may be overthinking. As I looked at some of Joych's chords, I noticed that the first three were simply inversions of the same I chord. Can one really call these separate chords?

Thanks, in advance
Jonathan

[Eggs]

Welp....


I for one, could really use an example here, with an actual illustration.
I won't pick it, cuz it might be wrong!  

Thanks for all the explanation so far... I understand what you are saying, but I don't see how to use it yet.


God bless,
Eggs

[Jniles_NCF]

i think what they are sayin (and this may be cause i'm just crazy in general ) is that while playing a song you can use a chord usually associated with another key becuase of the fact that they share the same note( and maybe i just confused everybody) say your playing a 1451 in C 1 is Cmaj 4 is Fmaj and so on but becuase F is also apart of many other scales such as F or Ab yo ucan play a chord that would usually be associated with an F in AB in the key of C. but then again like i said maybe that just added some confusion. i've only been playing for  year but i'm crazy enough to try stuff like that just to see what it would sound like. people who are self taught tend to do silly things like that :lol:  :oops:

[4hisglory]

sjonathan02, it only matters how you think about.

I really need to put some information together about this to try to make it clear but here is a few tips that really helped me out. (You would think I am an expert player or something but NOT.  There are two thinks I lack, 1.  Chops  2.  A command of alot of chord voicings).


1.  Follow the bass "it never lies"
2.  Learn all 12 major scales
3.  Understand Scale Degrees
4.  Look at the hands as a unit to see what chord you are playing
Ex:  Key of C

L.H./R.H.
C/CEG
C/EGC
C/GCE

All of these are C chords in the root position chords because the C is in the bass.

Does anyone have a hymn that they wlike to play that we can analyse??

[JoyCH]

Here is the chords to "Hallelujah" in the key of C

L/H.        R.H.   Lyrics
 G                    HAL  
 G                    LE  
 C          EGC    LU  
 D          FGC    UU  
 E          EGC    JAH  
 E          EGC    HAL  
 B                    LE  
 F          CFA 2X LU,JAH  
 D          DBA    HAL  
 C                    LE  
 G          DGB   LUJAH  
 F           DFGB  (FILLER)  
 G          CFA,DGB  HAL, LE  
 C          CFA  LU  
 C          CEG  

Now look at this song, what is the pattern in the key of C following the bass line?

C  D   E   F   G   A   B    C
1  2    3   4   5   6   7     8

Joy

[4hisglory]

The first thing I would try to do with this song is break it down to its simplest form via numbers so I can:

Easily transpose to any key in the future:

5.. HAL
5.. LE
1.. LU
1.. UU
1.. JAH
1... HAL
1... LE
4... LU
4... JAH
4... HAL
4... LE
5... LU
5... JAH  
5... HAL
5.....LE
1... LU
1... JAH

Then I would add the chords to it.

G.. HAL
G.. LE
C.. LU
C.. UU
C.. JAH
C... HAL
C... LE
F... LU
F... JAH
F... HAL
F... LE
G... LU
G... JAH  
G... HAL
G.....LE
C... LU
C... JAH

Now I will look at where I could spice stuff up.  The first thing I see is that I was stuck on the I chord (C) for a while.  Also I see that the after the C chord is an F Chord...so I know I can  do a 2 5 1 (which is technically a 5 1 4) into the F Chord


G.. HAL
G.. LE
C.. LU
C.. UU
C.. JAH
Gm... HAL.......2
C7... LE .......5
F... LU ........1
F... JAH
F.. HAL
F... LE
G... LU
G... JAH
G... HAL
G.....LE
C... LU
C... JAH

I would also do the same thing to in order to move into the G

G.. HAL
G.. LE
C.. LU
C.. UU
C.. JAH
Gm... HAL.......2
C7... LE .......5
F... LU ........1
F... JAH
Am... HAL ......2
D7... LE .......5
G... LU .........1
G... JAH
G... HAL
G.....LE
C... LU
C... JAH

The I would just use later chords

Gsus7.. HAL
G13.. LE
C13.. LU
C9.. UU
C9.. JAH
Gm... HAL
C7... LE
F9... LU
F9... JAH
Am... HAL
D7... LE
G9... LU
G9... JAH
G9... HAL
G.....LE
C... LU
C... JAH

[sjonathan02]

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

Color me stupid, but you mean that you're supposed to be playing these 2-5-1 and 7-3-6's between various notes???!?!

So then, how does one choose when to play these progressions?


Anxiously awaiting responses.
Jonathan

[sjonathan02]

AND you're saying that you use these progressions using the scale of the note that you're going to (i.e going to from C -F in our example using the 2-5-1 from the key of F)?

I hope I said all of that correctly!!

Jonathan

[4hisglory]

sjonathan02, I just want to make sure that you understand that I typically think about progressions in regards to "where I am going".  So since I am going to the F, I think 2 5 1, but below is what the actual progression would be in the key of C.

G.. HAL
G.. LE
C.. LU
C.. UU
C.. JAH
Gm... HAL.......5
C7... LE .......1
F... LU ........4
F... JAH
Am... HAL ......6
D7... LE .......2
G... LU .........5
G... JAH
G... HAL
G.....LE
C... LU .......1
C... JAH

I am not really a scale expert But in this little song, there are alot of different scales you could us, C Major, F Major, Gmajor, C Pentatonic, etc...

On thing that helped me alot was when I realized that songs, even though it says it is in one key, it can change key throughout the song.

This song is an example of it.the Key is C, but it temporarily goes to the key of F and and the key G.

The secret to making this happen is have a large chord vocabulary (which I don't).  This is important so you will have smooth voicing leading from one chord to the next.

[Eggs]

4hisglory,


Ahhhhhhh!.... excellent, my brutha... excellent.   Now I see the application,  and can't wait to get at my board tonight.

This is interesting to me because it allows you to introduce minor chords where they would not normally be.  I think I've probably done this because it sounded good, but had no idea what the theory was behind it.

I assume that this works with any progression?... What about different scale modes?  Minor?


God bless,
Eggs

[sjonathan02]

This has got to be the single-most greatest discussion related to learning how to play piano I've had EVER!!

*Side Bar* It's too bad you're not a music teacher, Eggs. I get the chance to work these little tidbits out right here then practice them some more at home (although, I wish I had a computer at home) *End side bar*

Pentatonic, Pentatonic, Pentatonic! I keep reading this word, what exactly does it mean other than the 5 tone scale, and how would one apply it to our example? Also, finger licks (or runs) how do you know which notes to play?

Again, this discussion has been great and THANKS!!

Jonathan

[sjonathan02]

Also, 4Hisglory, I like that way that you think because your using a system I'm familiar with (in terms of the numbers). So, I'll try it like that and see how it goes.

[icdattoney]

I don't completely understand 1-4-5's and 2-5-1's. I know 2-5-1's usually comes in during a end of a song and during the end of versus, and what  about 1-4-5's. where do they fit. As a beggining musician, how often should I practice and what exactly do I practice.

I think your question is based more in understanding how secondary dominants and the Circle of 5ths work. 2 being the secondary dominant to 5, and 5 being the dominant to 1.

Example:  Key of C major

The progression moves from a D7th chord (secondary dominant to G), to a G7th chord (which is the dominant of C), to a C chord.

As concerning 1-4-5:
Progressing  from 1 to 4 is quite common.  The 1 chord is the dominant of 4. (in any key)  The progression of 4 to 5 is also very common, but not dominant progression.

Hope this helps

[icdattoney]

Look at it like this, for example:

If I am practicing the scale of "F" which is;
F  G   A   Bb  C  D   E  F  notes/fingers
1  2   3   4     5  6   7  8

 1 - FAC is the major chord for F   (from the 1-4-5 pattern)
 4 - BbDF is a B flat chord
 5 - CEG is a major chord in C

So, by playing a note or using a pattern or using a chord in any scale you are playing in several keys and don't realize it.  :oops:  So, just by playing in the key of F you can actually play 7 different keys by playing the different notes.

Okay - you need me to go a little bit further, for example:

Key of F which is the first note, you would list every chord you can for F, for G list every chord you can play for G and so on. These chords can be used over and over again in other keys. Just list out the scale and do the same thing I just did above.  You get the idea for below,

Key of  C  scale/chords      

C     CEG   EGC  GCE   CEbGBb  etc.
D     DBG   BDG  GDB   DBbG     etc.
E      EGC  GCE   CEG   EG#C     etc.
F      FAC   ACF   CFA    FBbD      etc.
G     GBD   BDG  DGB   GBbD     etc.

So you see all the different chords and keys that apply to other keys.  If you use this theory which is called listed tones and play your patterns you can figure out alot songs by listing or changing the pattern.

Hope this helps.

Joy

WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

[JoyCH]

Thanks Daryl, that was nice of you to break that down and I'm glad Egg and SJonathan got it.    :lol:

[Eggs]

icdattoney,


I understand your theory explanations on secondary dominates and dominant progressions.  But I need to see things in action.

How does what you are explaining help me, or the original poster decide where/when to use a 2-5-1 or a 1-4-5 when we are chording a song?

Can you give an example?



God bless,
Eggs

[aljeres]

im going to show you exactly what i mean........now i read a lot, and a lot of it was awesome, but now to understand it means you can create it!!!!!!!!!   im going to show you waht i mean eggs, with useing the other progressions, and as far as when, it really is up to you.....the key thing to remember about the progressions, is.......they move in fourths.......but ima show you how i totally incorporate other scales as well as their basic progressions.....i am not refering to  INVERSIONS..... let me say it again...i am not refering to INVERSIONS!!!!!!

some have wrote nothing more than a inversion, and that's not what i am refering to, i am actually refering to another chord all together when i get ready......one more last point, to really help you out.....

*******
*******
*******___ always remeber where your atarting point is of your progression, or phrase of the song.......and always remember where your going!!!!!

you cant take it for granted; when you say i want to move from a CM  TO   FM.......WHY? BECAUSE, AS I MOVE, TECHNICALLY I AM MOVEING THROUGH THOSE SCALES......SO ALL I SEE IS OPTIONS ON TOP OF OPTIONS.....IMA MAKE A MIDI OR AN MP3......AND IMA POST SOMETHING TO THIS EFFECT!!!! STAY TUNE!!!!!!

[sjonathan02]

Hey Gieres,

Thanks in advance for breaking stuff down for a brotha. Would it be possible for you to put the numbers next to the chords? Something like what 4hisglory did. It makes it easier, for a novice like me, to truly understand (and ultimately create) the concepts being discussed.


Again, I truly thank God for all of you who take the time to teach.

Jonathan