Constructing licks and runs from different modes

[Christlike1984]

I am sort of perplexed right now.  My instructor is teaching me the song" Again I say rejoice" by Israel and New Breed.  Which I realize is in the Key of E.  We listen to the recording(He's teaching me to play by ear)and wrote out a tab for the song.  He wants me to go over the song, "homework" and then integrate licks and runs from the following: E Mixolydian, E Minor Pentatonic, E Major and E Dorian.  Could someone please explain to me how I would go about doing this?

[B3Wannabe]

Try searching Youtube. There are a lot of good videos there.

[Quebass86]

First, has your instructor gone over modes with you? Each mode is a scale of its own within the scale. As mentioned before I would do some youtube research or if you have some bass books that covers modes. Melbay's complete bass book is a good reference to have. I started out using that when I first started and still use it.

[Torch7]

First hear are the scale degrees, and Modes, but I have a question.

Modes based upon each major scale degree.
1st Degree is the  Ionian Mode:


2nd Degree is the Dorian Mode:


3rd Degree is the Phryian Mode:


4th Degree is the Lydian Mode:


5th Degree is the Mixolydian Mode:


6th Degree is the Aeolian Mode: also called natural Minor:


7th Degree is the Locrian Mode:


Pentatonics simply mean 5 note scales..

The Major Pentatonic


The Minor Pentatonic



If you are in the Key of E...  E dorian, etc will not work in the context of the song.

Example: If you are playing over the IONIAN or Major Scale you get the following notes:
E Gb Ab A B Db Eb

E Mixolydian would give you
E Gb Ab A B DbD

Notice the Only difference is the 7th Degree of the scale, which is a flatted 7th... but in the context of the song, that would be a wrong note.

So Since the Song is the Key of E, the 5th Degree which we get the Mixolydian from would be B Mixolydian, which fits in the E of E.
B Mixolydian is B C Eb E Gb Ab A B.  All the same notes as E major(ionian)... so all the notes fit.

[Torch7]

I actually have a video I am currently editing to cover the modes...  stay tuned.

[Torch7]

Sorry I don't have edit capabilities and I keep thinking of stuff to add after the post.

In the diagrams above the 1 should not be viewed as the root of the Song, but the root of the scaled degree... example:

In the Key of E, the 1 displayed on the Ionian Mode is E:
The 1 displayed on the Dorian Mode is Gb
The 1 displayed on the Phrygian is Ab and so on...

Also the green notes are the notes that identify the chord tonalities. 1 - 3 - 5 - 7.

[floaded27]

it depends on the song. sometimes using those off color notes that arent one of the scale degrees actually works. sometimes as just passing tones, other times as critical notes to what they are playing. i think being able to do that is what really separates beginner from advanced.

for example there are songs for instance in the key of E where you do use the Eb (especially for the B major chord, which is the V chord), but in the song using that b7 (E) actually works. u just gotta know if it can be used and when, but theres really no formula for that. that just comes with experience over time.

a big example that just came to mind is how jazz often uses dominant chords for all the chords. in a strict diatonic sense (keeping only with the notes in the key signature) many of those b7's would be totally out of place, but as we all know, they DO fit.

from my experience of playing, if you want to look at it from a formula point of view, some of the modes can be interchangeable, basically the major modes can sometimes be substituted for one another, and the minor modes can be substituted for one another.

for example.
E major is E ionian. but during some songs you can play using E lydian (you now get the b5) or E mixolydian (you get the b7)

for me, most minor chords i end up playing the Aeolian mode, even when its not. the ii and iii chord (dorian and phrygian respectively) i still sometimes get away with the aeolian mode.



what happens when you use a mode thats not diatonic to the key, you introduce a note thats not in the key signature, but these notes can be powerful. start exploring how and in what context to use your b7 (easiest to handle), b3 (also #9), b5 (also #11), b6 (also #5) and b2 (also b9). if you ever read chord charts you'll run into these alterations. they do color the chords, so they will indeed color your bass playing.

but take it a piece at a time. you'll never master this in a day or even a year, for that matter.

[Torch7]

floaded in the first instance you speak of in your response the Eb is within the key signature... so it works.  When playing the 5th which is the B major chord, the Eb is simply a inversion/substitution where the 3 of the chord is played in place of the 1.  Still creating a major chord.

To the rest of what you are saying, anything can technically work if all musicians are on one accord but too often when it comes playing in a band, experimentation can clash all over the place.  In composition of songs, musicians often take liberties... and in the hopes of making things not sound repetitive composers attempt to move outside of the box.

So to ChristLike I would say, stay within the general rules of theory, while learning, develop the basic understanding of why, stuff works in the context of the songs... then venture into experiementation.  You will save yourself from funny looks from the keyboard player....LOL!

[jonesl78]

Here's the lead sheet.

Again I Say Rejoice
Israel Houghton
Key: E
Chorus 1:
E                   A2/C# C#m7   
Rejoice in the Lord al -  ways
     Cmaj7           D
And again I say and again I say
E                   A2/C# C#m7
Rejoice in the Lord al -  ways
     Cmaj7           D
And again I say and again I say
  E
Rejoice


Verse:
E
Come bless the Lord come bless the Lord
             D       A2/C#       E
Draw near to worship Christ the Lord
                                           D     A2/C# E
And bless His name His holy name Declaring He is good


PreChorus:
Am7              Bm7
O that men would praise Him
Cmaj7             D
O that men would praise Him


Other:
(repeat Chorus, Verse, PreChorus, Chorus(2x))


Bridge:
Em11
O that men would praise His name
                                   C/D  Em11
Praise His name to the ends of the earth
Em11
O that men would praise His name
                F#7 E7sus D7sus       Bm7
Praise His name to  the   ends of the earth
Em11
O that men would praise His name.
Am9         Bm9
Again I say again I say (repeat)
 Cmaj9       Dmaj7         Am9          Bm9
Again I say, Again I say, Again I say, Again I say


Tag:
B/C#  C#m7  G/C  Am/C  G/C  D  E  B/C#  C#m7  G/C  Am7C
G/C  D  E   F#m/C#  C#m7  Cmaj7  D  E/G#  Esus/F# E  B#dim7
        rejoice         Rejoice   Rejoice
C#m7  F#m7  Cmaj7  D  Esus  E
          rejoice     Re  - joice


Im not familiar with this song but based on this lead sheet you could apply the following to chorus 1:

-E Major scale for "E" chord
-E mixolydian scale for "A2/C#" chord and "C#m7" chord
-E minor Pentatonic scale for the "Cmaj7" chord
-E Dorian for the "D" chord

[B3Wannabe]

You can run a Dorian over a major. I posted piano videos demonstrating it. You're basically just running the major scale from the key a whole-step down. You can do this with a lot of the modes. You just have to finish on, or near, a chord tone.

I think the Phrygian is the most dissonant over a major chord.

[floaded27]

You can run a Dorian over a major. I posted piano videos demonstrating it. You're basically just running the major scale from the key a whole-step down.

is that because the b7 is a major chord?

[jonesl78]

You can run a Dorian over a major. I posted piano videos demonstrating it. You're basically just running the major scale from the key a whole-step down. You can do this with a lot of the modes. You just have to finish on, or near, a chord tone.

I think the Phrygian is the most dissonant over a major chord.

I'll have to try this when I get home. E Dorian over Emaj just seems like it isn't "ideal."

[Kelz-Da-Basshead]

You can run a Dorian over a major. I posted piano videos demonstrating it. You're basically just running the major scale from the key a whole-step down. You can do this with a lot of the modes. You just have to finish on, or near, a chord tone.

I think the Phrygian is the most dissonant over a major chord.

Where is the video?  I never pass on a theory lesson.

[B3Wannabe]

is that because the b7 is a major chord?

Don't ask me! LOL! I figured that out a couple years ago and posted it in the piano room! There are other videos on Youtube better than mine, though.

I'll have to try this when I get home. E Dorian over Emaj just seems like it isn't "ideal."

It works, but because you're in a different key, the Dorian stands out. Like I said--and like the dude's instructor suggested, you can do it with other modes too. I think there's a dude using it in a Gospel Chops video.

I look at the finger patterns. The Mixolydian forms a 1,2,4 pattern (if you use one finger per fret) as you cross strings, with the root note starting on your 2nd finger, and ending on your 4th. The Aeolian forms a 1,3,4 pattern, with the root on the first finger,ending on the 3rd.

Mixolydian Pattern (using 1,2,4)
G -------------------
D -------------4-5-7-
A -------4-5-7-------
E ---5-7-------------



Aeolian Pattern (using 1,3,4)
G -------------------
D -------------5-7---
A -------5-7-8-------
E -5-7-8-------------

[Christlike1984]

First, has your instructor gone over modes with you? Each mode is a scale of its own within the scale. As mentioned before I would do some youtube research or if you have some bass books that covers modes. Melbay's complete bass book is a good reference to have. I started out using that when I first started and still use it.

Yes I have a working knowledge of modes.  I was just wondering how would you know which notes to use when you start feeling the song and want to put some runs and stuff in it. So you wont sound like a robot just playing something the guy playing the keys can play with his left hand.  I dont want to fill every iota of sonic space, just enough to groove with the drummer to add more "feel" to it.

[Torch7]

Yes I have a working knowledge of modes.  I was just wondering how would you know which notes to use when you start feeling the song and want to put some runs and stuff in it. So you wont sound like a robot just playing something the guy playing the keys can play with his left hand.  I dont want to fill every iota of sonic space, just enough to groove with the drummer to add more "feel" to it.

A good place to start with getting comfortable with modes utilizing your major and minor pentatonics, over the major and minor chord tonalities.

If you are on the 1-4-5 play a major pentatonic, if 2-3-6-7 minor pentatonic.

[sbyrd1978]

E mixolydian- E F# G# A B C# D E
E Dorian-     E F# G A B C# D E
E Minor pentatonic- E G A B D
E Major-      E F# G# A B C# D# E

1st of all, notice how much they are alike. E major and E mixolydian only differ by 1 note. E mixolydian has a lowered 7th. Everything else is the same as E Major. 2nd, E dorian and E mixolydian only differ by 1 note. E dorian has a lowered 3rd. Everything else is the same as E mixolydian. all that has happened in my brief explanation is that you have gone from 4 sharps to 3 sharps to 2 sharps. Now let's compare the number of sharps to the related key signatures. ex. E major has 4 sharps (F,C,G,D). what key has 3 sharps? answer...A major (F,C,G). finally, D major has 2 sharps.
Therefore, you could technically play: E major over the E Major chord, E Dorian over the D Major chord, and E mixolydian over the A major chord (which is deceptive to notice because the bass note being played is C#, which is the 3rd of A major). The chorus "come bless the Lord, come bless the Lord..." etc. uses those 3 chords. (E major, D major, A major/C#).
The whole vamp of the song "oh that men would praise his name, praise his name til the end of the earth..." or something like that, is all E minor pretty much. Therefore, you can go for broke on E minor pentatonic licks.
There are more places to apply the options you mentioned but I think that if you see how these basic concepts apply, it will give you revelation on how to apply these scales and modes in more places. I hope this helps. If not, let me know and I would be happy to make a video clip.
May God Bless you and empower you with revelation.

[Quebass86]

E mixolydian- E F# G# A B C# D E
E Dorian-     E F# G A B C# D E
E Minor pentatonic- E G A B D
E Major-      E F# G# A B C# D# E

1st of all, notice how much they are alike. E major and E mixolydian only differ by 1 note. E mixolydian has a lowered 7th. Everything else is the same as E Major. 2nd, E dorian and E mixolydian only differ by 1 note. E dorian has a lowered 3rd. Everything else is the same as E mixolydian. all that has happened in my brief explanation is that you have gone from 4 sharps to 3 sharps to 2 sharps. Now let's compare the number of sharps to the related key signatures. ex. E major has 4 sharps (F,C,G,D). what key has 3 sharps? answer...A major (F,C,G). finally, D major has 2 sharps.
Therefore, you could technically play: E major over the E Major chord, E Dorian over the D Major chord, and E mixolydian over the A major chord (which is deceptive to notice because the bass note being played is C#, which is the 3rd of A major). The chorus "come bless the Lord, come bless the Lord..." etc. uses those 3 chords. (E major, D major, A major/C#).
The whole vamp of the song "oh that men would praise his name, praise his name til the end of the earth..." or something like that, is all E minor pretty much. Therefore, you can go for broke on E minor pentatonic licks.
There are more places to apply the options you mentioned but I think that if you see how these basic concepts apply, it will give you revelation on how to apply these scales and modes in more places. I hope this helps. If not, let me know and I would be happy to make a video clip.
May God Bless you and empower you with revelation.

I definately would not mind you putting a video clip together on this. I have a good grasp but definately could use some visual to help reinforce it.

Thanks

[mjl422]

E mixolydian- E F# G# A B C# D E
E Dorian-     E F# G A B C# D E
E Minor pentatonic- E G A B D
E Major-      E F# G# A B C# D# E

1st of all, notice how much they are alike. E major and E mixolydian only differ by 1 note. E mixolydian has a lowered 7th. Everything else is the same as E Major. 2nd, E dorian and E mixolydian only differ by 1 note. E dorian has a lowered 3rd. Everything else is the same as E mixolydian. all that has happened in my brief explanation is that you have gone from 4 sharps to 3 sharps to 2 sharps. Now let's compare the number of sharps to the related key signatures. ex. E major has 4 sharps (F,C,G,D). what key has 3 sharps? answer...A major (F,C,G). finally, D major has 2 sharps.
Therefore, you could technically play: E major over the E Major chord, E Dorian over the D Major chord, and E mixolydian over the A major chord (which is deceptive to notice because the bass note being played is C#, which is the 3rd of A major). The chorus "come bless the Lord, come bless the Lord..." etc. uses those 3 chords. (E major, D major, A major/C#).
The whole vamp of the song "oh that men would praise his name, praise his name til the end of the earth..." or something like that, is all E minor pretty much. Therefore, you can go for broke on E minor pentatonic licks.
There are more places to apply the options you mentioned but I think that if you see how these basic concepts apply, it will give you revelation on how to apply these scales and modes in more places. I hope this helps. If not, let me know and I would be happy to make a video clip.
May God Bless you and empower you with revelation.

+1 on the video.

I understand that the OP is asking about playing modes in the key of E (per his instructor) but, what is the benefit of looking at it this way as opposed to playing E-Ionian, D-mixolydian, C#-Aeolian (in the case if this song)? 

It seems easier, for me, to view the form of the song this way as opposed to viewing everything in E (if I'm making any sense).   

[B3Wannabe]

+1 on the video.

I understand that the OP is asking about playing modes in the key of E (per his instructor) but, what is the benefit of looking at it this way as opposed to playing E-Ionian, D-mixolydian, C#-Aeolian (in the case if this song)? 

It seems easier, for me, to view the form of the song this way as opposed to viewing everything in E (if I'm making any sense).  

Except for the "D-Mixolydian" part, your way only runs the E major scale. The way his teacher is showing him, he's running E, D, and A major scales. This would give a different sounds than what you're suggesting.

This guy does what his teacher is suggesting at the end of this video. The gist of it is that you can run any scale, as long as you end on a tone in the original key.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKHpCqSMriU