A thought on Secular Music

[floaded27]

Before you run out scared, this is not that OTHER topic so please read.

Could a big disparity and uniform hatred of secular music be based on the parallel secular genre of a particular church demographic?

Let me explain. Not to make it a race thing, but often the Black church communities find that the worldly counterpart of music in their same communities is Hip-Hop and modern R&B. These genres often portray extremely negative images of just about every part of life, with the main focuses being sex, exploitation of women, violence, drugs, alcohol, money, just about any illegal behavior, and material wealth. These topics, and the glorification of them, not only contradict the Christian values maintained by the church, but also are destructive to families and communities, Christian and non-Christian alike.

Not to say that other genres dont contain such material, but there are plenty of artists and material that dont. It is almost impossible to be successful as a clean artist in Hip-Hop & R&B. Even the so-called clean artists represent at least one thing on the list, and if they dont, they're gone from the public spotlight in no time.

Even so called positive messages and success stories most often come at the destruction of someone else. There's hardly ever anything about climbing the ladder of success/maturity/healing/growth/etc, without first pulling someone else off the ladder: a parallel to the quite famous "crab mentality" in effect.

I've heard songs of true friendship/love/family/success/goals/pride/confidence/hope and other positive values in other genres, but just about NEVER in the black church parallel of secular music (Hip-Hop & R&B). all of those themes almost exclusively fall in the gospel arena. Im talking about unperverted values. Your "crew thats ready to ride on a n****" is NOT representative of the true value of friendship, family, etc. But there are plenty of artists in other genres who can be successful with representing these very values in their truest form.

So with all that said let me give an example of what I am attempting to illustrate. For example if I had an experience (which is common to many men) of seeing a young lady everyday, maybe on my way to work or school, and i wanted to talk to her but i didnt know what to say. Now this happens all the time. Im sure many men in the church met their wife that way and many women in the church were initially approached by their husband because of that. Nothing wrong with that.

So that already rhymes, so that can be my lyrics. I put music to it. Did the situation change? No. Did my intention change? No. But if i played that song for someone in the church, because it doesnt say God and they cannot categorize it as gospel, they reference their paricular secular counterpart. Now most people who associate secular music with Hip-Hop and R&B will now view my song as lustful, full of sexual intentions, exploiting of women. Why? Because thats the overall and overwhelming tone of that genre, so of course this must be too, right? But when did my intentions change? When did the situation change? It never did. The persons perception of it did.

Now someone who may listen to other genres, and have been exposed to purely positive music may or may not, give the song the benefit of the doubt and listen to context, because they see it can go either way. What else is he saying? This is the same way you would read a love poem and say "aww thats romantic and sweet" or read something bad and say "whoa, thats way out of bounds".

Your reference point determines that. And for just words, the words themselves create that reference. But for music, what you associate the music to creates the reference on a much larger scale than the words do. (Partly why Gospel Rap isnt received by some people??)


I hope I provide a clear background and basis for my question, which shows my view that the attitude towards secular music is based on the music genres the term secular is closely associated with.



Any opinions on the matter. No one is wrong or right. Just make an attempt to provide more than just a yes or no, though.

[docjohn]

I used to go to a church that played exclusively CCWM;the blander the better.But we would play a lot of David Crowder music because the pastor was an ex-rock and roller.One Sunday a year,we would have a "california sunday" and dress up like retro 70's.I asked to play the opening riff of "JESUS is just Allright by the Doobie Brothers"All I got was a vapid,long dissertation on why we "play a new song,don't take people back to where they where"(drugged out hippies?).

This amused me;at least the DB Mentioned JESUS;which many "artists"don't,using generic "lord,god,titles"instead of THE NAME.So,we were "protecting these folks " for 1 hour a week from the "ravages"of the past.We never did a strip search of folks CD's,i-pods;or have "escorts" that they didn't hear DB at work,restaurants probably because that idea wasn't thought up!

The point is,folks get all "holy" to the point of crazy about some things while ignoring the true dangers out there like you mentioned.Funny thing,when i used to go to some of those "artists"web-sites to see their influences-it was a "who's who list of the demonic! So,imo many of these "new songs" are "redistilled" versions of maybe less than CHRIST-like stuff.

If you look in many music sections for CHRISTians;it will show a worldly group and the "CHRISTian sound alike".Listen to CCWM;this group sounds like Hootie and the Blowfish;the singers sound like Madonna -verb,on and on.So much for the "new song"which to my ears sounds like reconstituted crapola from the 80's,90's,etc.Thanks LORD for a CD player,couple good Gospel stations,and jazz here in hot-lanta 27 degrees!

[Mysteryman]

The problem is there are people in high places who set standards and trends. They are not going to let you mess up their maximum profitability. Only way clean rnb or hip hop can make it is if they can draw enough money to make the same amount of the grimy ones. The industry is going to set up a stage to push the people into what they will spend the most money on. I guarantee you if they could come up with clean artists who could pull the number and influence the people to spend money. Hip hop and rnb trends would change.

You see it in the other genres. There is a certain image about country music. If you change that image to more of a perverted one. The listeners would drop it like it's hot. Lol pun int There are other factors why rnb and hip hop is the way it is too. Including racial, mind control, economics...so on. I hate to say that but it is true. I think the problem it's that because the overall image of rnb and hiphop is seen in a negative light it's is seen as a compromise in the church.

It is what heavy metal goth would be if it came to the ccm industry. Maybe there I don't know. But I'm sure there would be an uproar if the saints were painting their faces and busting up instruments for Jesus.   

[under13]

Who cares what church folks say? Many of them have been brainwashed when it comes to topics such as secular music. Look at the songs of Solomon, its just as sexual as many of the R&B songs out today.

[Mysteryman]

Who cares what church folks say? Many of them have been brainwashed when it comes to topics such as secular music. Look at the songs of Solomon, its just as sexual as many of the R&B songs out today.

No! 

[funkStrat_97]

Who cares what church folks say? Many of them have been brainwashed when it comes to topics such as secular music. Look at the songs of Solomon, its just as sexual as many of the R&B songs out today.

But there is a difference in context.  Sexuality is not a sin, but adultery and/or fornication is and this is what a lot of secular urban songs are about.

[betnich]

...Sexuality is not a sin, but adultery and/or fornication is and this is what a lot of secular urban songs are about.

Also true of lots of songs in Pop and especially Country genres.

...Just waiting for the CCM equivalent of Lady GAGA to burst on the scene...

[under13]

But there is a difference in context.  Sexuality is not a sin, but adultery and/or fornication is and this is what a lot of secular urban songs are about.

just because a lot of them contain such messages, does not mean all of them do. Did you even bother to read the OP's post?

[floaded27]

i think maybe what im saying wasnt clearly presented.

No, i am not saying we should be waiting for the CCM or Gospel equivalent of popular secular artists.

What I am saying is that because we cannot have an individual conversation with every single person, people often need a way to address the masses. In society, you have the mass outlet of public speaking (preaching for example), writing/books, theater, film, music, etc. All of these seem to be able to address social issues/problems/concerns/situations outside of just simply church/christianity/Bible, EXCEPT music.

For example, when pastors and preachers/ministers/evangelists have been for the past few years talking about getting out of debt, nobody in the church had problems with it. They werent simply saying "just trust Jesus about your debt" or "Jesus died and rose from the grave so Visa will stop calling you". No! They were talking about saving, reducing credit card use, budgeting, and investing. Which is not the traditional preaching and wasnt entirely focused on Biblical teaching. It ties into Christianity because it focuses on wholesome and balanced living. Same things can be said in books and movies. However, if those same messages and principles were put in music, its officially NOT Gospel, and therefore, for some Christians, it is automatically demonized and wholly rejected.

So in some circles its like musicians, songwriters, singers dont get a voice on issues like others do, except for the same old same old. And im like, how can we ask Jesus to fix it, if we're not allowed talk about, acknowledge, nor address the very things that need fixing.

[funkStrat_97]

just because a lot of them contain such messages, does not mean all of them do. Did you even bother to read the OP's post?

That's why I used the phrase "a lot of them" rather than "all of them" because secular music does get the broad-brush treatment.  Secular music, by definition, does not automatically mean that it is evil.  It simply means that it is not sacred or church music and can cover a large range of topics.  For the record, yes, I did read the OP's post, but was responding directly to your analogy between the Song of Solomon and the lyrical content of modern R&B music.

[Kelz-Da-Basshead]

Before you run out scared, this is not that OTHER topic so please read.

Could a big disparity and uniform hatred of secular music be based on the parallel secular genre of a particular church demographic?

Let me explain. Not to make it a race thing, but often the Black church communities find that the worldly counterpart of music in their same communities is Hip-Hop and modern R&B. These genres often portray extremely negative images of just about every part of life, with the main focuses being sex, exploitation of women, violence, drugs, alcohol, money, just about any illegal behavior, and material wealth. These topics, and the glorification of them, not only contradict the Christian values maintained by the church, but also are destructive to families and communities, Christian and non-Christian alike.

Not to say that other genres dont contain such material, but there are plenty of artists and material that dont. It is almost impossible to be successful as a clean artist in Hip-Hop & R&B. Even the so-called clean artists represent at least one thing on the list, and if they dont, they're gone from the public spotlight in no time.

Even so called positive messages and success stories most often come at the destruction of someone else. There's hardly ever anything about climbing the ladder of success/maturity/healing/growth/etc, without first pulling someone else off the ladder: a parallel to the quite famous "crab mentality" in effect.

I've heard songs of true friendship/love/family/success/goals/pride/confidence/hope and other positive values in other genres, but just about NEVER in the black church parallel of secular music (Hip-Hop & R&B). all of those themes almost exclusively fall in the gospel arena. Im talking about unperverted values. Your "crew thats ready to ride on a n****" is NOT representative of the true value of friendship, family, etc. But there are plenty of artists in other genres who can be successful with representing these very values in their truest form.

So with all that said let me give an example of what I am attempting to illustrate. For example if I had an experience (which is common to many men) of seeing a young lady everyday, maybe on my way to work or school, and i wanted to talk to her but i didnt know what to say. Now this happens all the time. Im sure many men in the church met their wife that way and many women in the church were initially approached by their husband because of that. Nothing wrong with that.

So that already rhymes, so that can be my lyrics. I put music to it. Did the situation change? No. Did my intention change? No. But if i played that song for someone in the church, because it doesnt say God and they cannot categorize it as gospel, they reference their paricular secular counterpart. Now most people who associate secular music with Hip-Hop and R&B will now view my song as lustful, full of sexual intentions, exploiting of women. Why? Because thats the overall and overwhelming tone of that genre, so of course this must be too, right? But when did my intentions change? When did the situation change? It never did. The persons perception of it did.

Now someone who may listen to other genres, and have been exposed to purely positive music may or may not, give the song the benefit of the doubt and listen to context, because they see it can go either way. What else is he saying? This is the same way you would read a love poem and say "aww thats romantic and sweet" or read something bad and say "whoa, thats way out of bounds".

Your reference point determines that. And for just words, the words themselves create that reference. But for music, what you associate the music to creates the reference on a much larger scale than the words do. (Partly why Gospel Rap isnt received by some people??)


I hope I provide a clear background and basis for my question, which shows my view that the attitude towards secular music is based on the music genres the term secular is closely associated with.



Any opinions on the matter. No one is wrong or right. Just make an attempt to provide more than just a yes or no, though.

I agree.  I was actually having a similar conversation with my brother the other day.  Because rap music is often portrayed as evil cuz they rap about money alot but, we as christians make many songs about money and throw god at the tail end to make it gospel.  Now i know that the way rappers often talk abot money or the other values often mixed in the music is wrong his desire for wealth is no different than our portrayal in the song.  We dont say i want to be prosperous to bless others or the the kingdom. we generally only say i wanna be prosperous but, we say it in "christian".  Christians say many of the same things many rappers and singers as well as just regular unsaved folks may say but we say it in our christian lingo and say god did it so its okay. 

For example:  I dont like him he always gets on my nerves im glad he got fired.
In Christian: I prayed and prayed for god to remove me from that situation and god said he will remove the heads of my enemies. 

Same basic idea expressed.  But the way it was reworded now makes it okay.  Now i know im about to be eaten alive.  But the point im trying to make is that as christians we like to pretend we are so removed from the ways of the world all the time to the point where anything that doesnt say the word god is evil.  when in some cases its not that different at all.  Ive heard gospel songs that were very depressing.  Ive also heard secular songs that have a positive message and can help someone through their day but they cant listen to it.  But they can go see a movie about killing and selling drugs.  Thats not the same.  Maybe its because christian movies are few and far between and if we decide thats wrong we wont be able to watch movies anymore. sorry bout the long post.

[BassbyGrace]

I honestly cant really answer your question right now, but Im intrigued by your new perspective on this.  I think it should be in the main lounge (if they are mature enough to stay on the subject matter).  You make VERY valid points.  I plan on taking this to some key ppl in the ministry around me as well.  Im very impressed by the way you've presented it.

[laj528]

Is it just me that has a problem with folks use a small 'g' when typing GOD?  

By the way has anyone seen this or am I just late? 
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/showbiz/2009/08/24/why.cant.i.sing.about.love.cnn

[floaded27]

By the way has anyone seen this or am I just late? 
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/showbiz/2009/08/24/why.cant.i.sing.about.love.cnn

I watched that a while back, and that is a good example of what i am talking about here.

I honestly cant really answer your question right now, but Im intrigued by your new perspective on this.  I think it should be in the main lounge (if they are mature enough to stay on the subject matter).  You make VERY valid points.  I plan on taking this to some key ppl in the ministry around me as well.  Im very impressed by the way you've presented it.

thanks. i did start to wonder about the presentation of it. i followed your suggestion and posted it in the main lounge a few minutes ago. we'll see where that goes.

I agree.  I was actually having a similar conversation with my brother the other day.  Because rap music is often portrayed as evil cuz they rap about money alot but, we as christians make many songs about money and throw god at the tail end to make it gospel.  Now i know that the way rappers often talk abot money or the other values often mixed in the music is wrong his desire for wealth is no different than our portrayal in the song.  We dont say i want to be prosperous to bless others or the the kingdom. we generally only say i wanna be prosperous but, we say it in "christian".  Christians say many of the same things many rappers and singers as well as just regular unsaved folks may say but we say it in our christian lingo and say god did it so its okay. 

For example:  I dont like him he always gets on my nerves im glad he got fired.
In Christian: I prayed and prayed for god to remove me from that situation and god said he will remove the heads of my enemies. 

Same basic idea expressed.  But the way it was reworded now makes it okay.  Now i know im about to be eaten alive.  But the point im trying to make is that as christians we like to pretend we are so removed from the ways of the world all the time to the point where anything that doesnt say the word god is evil.  when in some cases its not that different at all.  Ive heard gospel songs that were very depressing.  Ive also heard secular songs that have a positive message and can help someone through their day but they cant listen to it.  But they can go see a movie about killing and selling drugs.  Thats not the same.  Maybe its because christian movies are few and far between and if we decide thats wrong we wont be able to watch movies anymore. sorry bout the long post.

exactly what im talking about. and you see how other forms of mass presentation (movies, TV, books, etc) seem to get a relaxed perspective and tolerance, but music is automatically thrown under the bus.

[under13]

I think it should be in the main lounge (if they are mature enough to stay on the subject matter). 

I doubt it.

[ddwilkins]

I agree.  I was actually having a similar conversation with my brother the other day.  Because rap music is often portrayed as evil cuz they rap about money alot but, we as christians make many songs about money and throw god at the tail end to make it gospel.  Now i know that the way rappers often talk abot money or the other values often mixed in the music is wrong his desire for wealth is no different than our portrayal in the song.  We dont say i want to be prosperous to bless others or the the kingdom. we generally only say i wanna be prosperous but, we say it in "christian".  Christians say many of the same things many rappers and singers as well as just regular unsaved folks may say but we say it in our christian lingo and say god did it so its okay. 

For example:  I dont like him he always gets on my nerves im glad he got fired.
In Christian: I prayed and prayed for god to remove me from that situation and god said he will remove the heads of my enemies. 

Same basic idea expressed.  But the way it was reworded now makes it okay.  Now i know im about to be eaten alive.  But the point im trying to make is that as christians we like to pretend we are so removed from the ways of the world all the time to the point where anything that doesnt say the word god is evil.  when in some cases its not that different at all.  Ive heard gospel songs that were very depressing.  Ive also heard secular songs that have a positive message and can help someone through their day but they cant listen to it.  But they can go see a movie about killing and selling drugs.  Thats not the same.  Maybe its because christian movies are few and far between and if we decide thats wrong we wont be able to watch movies anymore. sorry bout the long post.

I remember one song in particular that is an example of what you said that is bold, Tupac's "Keep your head up." To this day, I still like this song because its uplifting, especially to the single women. It's a secular song, but has nothing degrading in it. Now some other lyrics of Tupac are degrading, but not this song.

[SavnBass]

Tasteless music is tasteless music... India Irie is NOT Shakira... John Legend is NOT Pretty Ricky. IMO it is the fact that like it or not (and many segments of our society are so caught up that they just don't get it...) black music IS American music and in many parts of the world when you say American music, you immediately think hip hop.. and much of the negativity that comes with it. That ship has sailed... I have no idea how to retrieve it because in many cases the sales dictate what is being done... and let's face it.. cr@p sells.. India Irie is one of the most talented, positive, outright brilliant American songwriters top come along in the last 20 years... but her record sales are no where near Beyonce's... (Not to tale anything away from the girl.. she's fine & all, and at least she can sing.. but I get sick of seeing her shaking her behind all over the place..).

For me personally I see nothing wrong with doing secular music..  in fact I think that that is part of the problem with why it is so bad in many cases. If people with a more positive outlook making good music were to saturate the market like the hawkers of shake, bake & shoot... perhaps things would start to change... but for me I just prefer to get my praise on..

[phbrown]

thanks. i did start to wonder about the presentation of it. i followed your suggestion and posted it in the main lounge a few minutes ago. we'll see where that goes.

You are much braver than I Floaded. I hope they are able to stay on topic.

[Kelz-Da-Basshead]

I remember one song in particular that is an example of what you said that is bold, Tupac's "Keep your head up." To this day, I still like this song because its uplifting, especially to the single women. It's a secular song, but has nothing degrading in it. Now some other lyrics of Tupac are degrading, but not this song.

Thats what i mean but people are caught in the name tupac and not the message that they cndemn you for listening to it.  Tye tribbett made the song good in the hood. which he, himself acknowledges is secular but it barely passes with christians only because he made it.  Byron Cage or Israel can make a song today that says the exact word for word lyrics as the tupac song but theirs is okay.  until people find out its based off of a tupac song. 

[ddwilkins]

Thats what i mean but people are caught in the name tupac and not the message that they cndemn you for listening to it.  Tye tribbett made the song good in the hood. which he, himself acknowledges is secular but it barely passes with christians only because he made it.  Byron Cage or Israel can make a song today that says the exact word for word lyrics as the tupac song but theirs is okay.  until people find out its based off of a tupac song. 

So true. That's why I like this thread because the contributors are really thinking outside of the box. This thread seems to be more of an intellectual thread compared to others that dealt with secular music/artists. Like your example, I guess people didn't like the fact that R. Kelly sang "I believe I can fly," but it was exceptable for Yolanda Adams.