Why are we as Gospel musicians so easily impressed?

[Browntiplocs]

I am speaking from a bass player's perspective.  This is not to in any way degrade our fellow musicians.  It's simply an observation that I had recently.  

A little while back I was invited to witness a "renown" bass player play.  It was a jazz set somewhat but all of the performing musicians were gospel musicians.  I was told so many times that he was one of the greatest.  I've heard him quite a few times on gospel sets but I don't count that nor albums because in that setting, you should play with the band and the band backs the vocals....or at least it should.  Anyways, this is a jazz setting meaning that this is your time to flex.  Almost like a "jam session" so you would think that all of those "chops" or what have you should come to the light.......The set was decent but I was totally unimpressed with the bass player.  He seemed to lack in playing certain types of patterns.  When he did licks they were all "churchy" to begin with but when he took his solo we were like
 8O  :x  :cry:      :?  

Which brings me to my point.  Why is it that we expect so much from our jazz musicians but settle for whatever from our own.  Gospel music is the greatest music in the world because we can be anything.  We can go jazz, latin jazz, big band jazz, hip hop, r&b, soul, rock, hard rock, and yes even heavy metal.... :oops:   We have to study all types of music so we can be as authenic as possible (not going to go spiritual but there is a reason why).  A lot of us are severely limited to just one style of music which is ok but if I'm going to call you one of my favorites, you have to "bring it".  Not necessarily on albums but especially on your solos or fusion jazz sets.  Don't get me wrong, there are some "beasts" out there but sometimes we totally misjudge.  What are your criteria for saying what musicians are your favorites?  I don't want to hear about grooves or pocket because that is the first thing that a bass player should learn.  The feel of the groove or "funk" cannot be taught but this is where a lot of us end....this is our ceiling.  Again I ask, what is our criteria?  Who we play for?  How many albums we are on?  Just my 2 cents....

[djgroovin]

Browntiplocs,

I certianly understand your point.  I have been to a few showings lately and come away feeling unfullfilled as a bass player and fan.  However, concider that you are a bass player that takes his craft seriously, therefor you may be more critical than the average fan.  I know what if feels like to be waiting for that killer riff and it never happens.

Example:  Karen Clark-Sheards version of 'Glorious'....had some impessive riffs.  On 'Martha Munizzi's' version I was just waiting on that killer riff or something different and it never happened.

So as far a criteria for a favorite bassist I do believe that groove has it's place.  But to 'bring it' as you put it is not always required of the music.  I can be just as satisfied with a bassist that plays a simple bassline with excellent timing.

[Browntiplocs]

So as far a criteria for a favorite bassist I do believe that groove has it's place.  But to 'bring it' as you put it is not always required of the music.  I can be just as satisfied with a bassist that plays a simple bassline with excellent timing.

I totally agree having a nice feeling groove does have its place.  Without a groove there is no song.  However, isn't it the job of the bassists to hold the groove anyway?  So why reward someone for doing their job?  If a doctor prescribes medicine for a headache would you say that he/she is one of the best in the world?  If that same doctor revolutionalizes the way medicine is practiced then you could very easily make the argument that he/she is one of the best.  Yes, I do take my craft seriuosly.  As any musician on a "professional" level, one desiring to be a "professional", or a musician with a "professional" attitude should.  Moreover, I would not expect a bass player to "blaze" all over the place on an album. Totally irritating.   Like I said, I don't count albums and most gospel sets because there is only so much you are required/should do (even though lately drummers have REALLY been going crazy!).  In those sets, the groove IS key.  When I said to "bring it" I meant BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE THAT IS FRESH.  It's not all about "chops" either.  If grooving is your thing, then bring grooves that are sicker than the sickest of grooves and so on........My favorite bass players are trend setters or have the potential to be.

[fenderjazz]

I think that we gospel bassists are easily impressed when we don't expose ourselves to music that utilizes the full melodic and harmonic potential of the bass. Many times I have met bass players who know all about Maurice Fitzgerald and Sharray Reed and know nothing about Jaco Pastorius. Nothing against Maurice and Sharray, because I greatly admire their musicianship and accomplishments, but my point is that we should know about our instrument's innovators and those who brought the bass to be what it is today. There's a whole world of stuff that can be done on any instrument outside of what there's room for in gospel music. Sometimes, we don't realize that what you learn in any one genre of music is just the tip of the iceberg when you look at the big picture.

Brandon M  

[hitechjunkie]

all good points.  

for me, i love well thought out grooves.  it shows that some work
went into the creation process, but i'm always wondering, was it the
bass player, the keyboard player, the drummer, that came up with it?
you don't really see credit for grooves on CDs and a lot of the times
it probably wasn't the bass player that came up with it.

i agree, bass players that can lay down a solid groove are good, but
what makes them great and impressive are the personal subtleties
that they are able to inject into any song, their own licks, motifs, stops,
 whatever.  

the great ones, do it only just enough (once?) in any
particular song so that when you hear it for the first time, you say to
yourself, "what was that?" and you find yourself rewinding to that part
and playing that one little part over and over again cuz it just sounded
so good!   and the really impressive ones, are always improving their
craft and always come up with something new every time you see them.

[hitechjunkie]

that performance you described with the "renowned" bass player reminds
me so much of the time i went to see the Yellow Jackets (jazz fusion) in
NYC.   it was a while ago ('80s) and i went with a bass player buddy of
mine (i was strictly a jazz/r&b guitarist then) but when this bass player
from the Yellow Jackets took his turn in the limelight, all the other
musicians walked off, and he proceeded to play the SORRIEST solo
on bass guitar.   it was so bad, that my buddy told me HE was embarrassed
for the guy!   LOL!

still, he could lay down a solid groove, and during that period, did lot
of studio work for a lot of people, Anita Baker, etc

[LisaBug]

Browntiplocs....YOU BETTA PREACH!!!
You are SOOO right about accepting mediocrity in the church be it form teh musicians and even the singers. Some musicians will play their BEHINDS off and a gig but then come to church and go right back to basic progressions like a beginner. BRING IT MAN! just like you would anywhere else...God deserves your BEST. Singers too.

[hitechjunkie]

i just wanted to add one more perspective as to why -

i think, as Christians, sometimes we can be TOO polite and forgiving
and non-judgemental!   it can be difficult to be critical without some
guilt due to our beliefs as Christians.   maybe that is what you are
seeing with Gospel musicians, not so much the critical musician,
but the forgiving Christian.

as far as criteria for saying a musician is my favorite, that's a tough
one for me.   i listen to song after song from various sources, and
find lots that i love to listen to but i don't kid myself -
i know that a lot can be done nowadays in the studio to enhance a musician's
playing on any particular song, even on any "live" recording.  the only
way for me to really gauge a particular musician on his craft and
instrument is to actually see them live, much like you did.   even some
"live" DVDs have been taken back to the studio for "cleanup".  

right now, one musician that i am impressed with is Fred Hammond,
but not as a bass player, but as a composer, on his "Somethin Bout Love"
CD.   not sure which songs he wrote himself or collaborated on
(i imagine most songs involve some collaboration unless YOU record
everything yourself and actually distribute your own CDs) but i just
love how different this particular CD is from his previous, showing
just how versatile and gifted he is.