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Gospel Instruments => Organ Room => Topic started by: Runs_N_12_Keys on October 25, 2007, 03:20:09 PM

Title: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Runs_N_12_Keys on October 25, 2007, 03:20:09 PM
Levites against Transposing...

Transposing is like pushing a button and instead of you reading what I'm typing in English you will see it in Spanish.

This would give you the impression that I'm bilingual which may or may not impress you.

Then I could push another button and you see what I type in French, German and Japanese leading you to believe that I'm not bilingual at all but I speak SEVERAL languages FLUENTLY... when in all actuality I'm not as gifted as you think. I'm actually too lazy to learn Spanish or even learn all there is to know about English but I don't want YOU to know that...

Musicians can do the same thing with a transpose key on a keyboard. They can play the same note and make it sound 11 different sounds than the REAL sound it's SUPPOSED to make. Making them APPEAR to know more than they truly do... if you put that same musician on a piano or an organ with no transpose key, they are exposed for the fake they truly are... 

By Will Sparrow



Transposing is WRONG!

Stop It!!!!!

L.A.T  4  Life



Learn your Craft!!!
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If you are Interested in Becoming apart of this Organazation PM me or hit me up one the Tye Tribbett MB
Tyetribbettworldwide.com   (Click on MB) The Thread is Called
The Shed that Never Ends

We also have Phone Sheds (and Bible Study) every Wednesday at 10 PM EST
Let’s Unite!!!
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: G Johnson on October 25, 2007, 04:54:26 PM
Man i just did a conference... And I dealt with that not to be arrogant but cheating is nothing more than a liar...
worse transposing is hipocrasy... Not to the beginners i understand they are learning. After you mature.. Learn the craft...
You are using help with somethin you dont need help with...

Thanks for posting


Greg
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: chevonee on October 25, 2007, 05:50:08 PM
It's tight but it's right!!
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: amandaag on October 25, 2007, 06:02:24 PM
i am not transposing anymore. I have a friend in my church whose transposes, but he is being encouraged to not use it. I try to play songs on all keys as possible.

Transposing, as stated, is nothing but cheating yourself. You will learn nothing from transposing. That is why i practice playing in different keys that i am not accustomed to.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: ddw4e on October 25, 2007, 10:56:27 PM
Haven't transposed in 6 years. Been playing for 7. So what that tell you?? :D
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: bishopcole on October 25, 2007, 10:59:45 PM
Man, I want to be like all of yall when I get older!! LOL!!!  AND THATS A REAL RAPP!!!  Bishop Cole
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: h313w on October 26, 2007, 05:35:02 AM
tight as times are around here, for some folks, transposing paid for their house, that's what happened. the rest of us playing in 12 keys can't seem to find stable places to play for a certain amount of comfortable money so we can at least buy a meal at golden corral 3 times a week or something. Man you got some playing in 3 keys making $800 +.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: momuzik on October 26, 2007, 06:47:57 AM
When people transpose, why do they have to be hypocrites? If they're truthful about it and "there's no shame in their game", why do they have to be frontin' and lying? Transposing is a personal choice. True, they're short-changing themselve but that's on them.
When I first started learning, I used to transpose until I learned the song in that key. I don't transpose now, but if I did, who would know? Probably half the church doesn't even know what transposing is.
If someone transposes, let him. If he happens to one day find himself at a piano, and someone breaks out in song in a key he doesn't know, it's on him/ it's his fault.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: TheReturn on October 26, 2007, 07:12:53 AM
WELL, I'M NOT TRANSPOSING ANYMORE.

THE ONLY TIME I DO IT IS WHEN I'M AT MY HOME CHURCH. THE Eb, AND Gnat BASS PEDALS DON'T WORK SO, I JUST TRANSPOSE UP ONE KEY TO, TRY MY BEST TO ELIMINATE BOTH OF THOSE KEYS. (my church usually sings everything in Eb or Ab)


I GOT EMBARRASSED ONCE FOR TRANSPOSING. SOMONE THAT WAS SINGING A SONG ASKED ME TO BACK HIM UP. BEFORE HE STARTED HE TOLD ME TO GIVE HIM Ab SO I REALLY WAS PLAYING IN Bb. SO THE WHOLE BAND, HIT Ab AND I PLAYED Bb. NO ONE KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON EXCEPT MUSICIANS. IT SUCKED TO BE ME THAT NIGHT. lol


HOLLA
CATRON/TheReturn
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: momuzik on October 26, 2007, 09:06:57 AM
One of the reasons I stopped transposing was because I would forget to change the key back once the song was over. So on the next song, the praise team would be straining trying to sing.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: minofmusic on October 26, 2007, 09:42:52 AM
i was a tranposer for a while, but then the church i was at bought a organ, and they put me on the organ, so when the minister of music at the time would call out "up 4" i could do that anymore because there was no transpose button on the organ, so i had to learn every song we did in the orginal key plus modulations sometimes, i hated it at first but now i love because it has made me better, im finally comfortable playing in E major  ;D , if you learn the right way you will go farther in your playing. Remember perfect practice makes perfect. if you are transposing you are not perfecting your practice. just my two cents ?/?
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: T-Block on October 26, 2007, 10:59:28 AM
Transposing is a learned behavior.  Once u have learned to use it, it's hard to unlearn it.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: RMS2003 on October 26, 2007, 03:23:24 PM
I haven't transposed in a few years. However, I still don't play in every key. A, B, E, and G flat are the only keys I can't play in. After 8 years playing, I'm just now learning to play in D flat because my music director (who's been with us for a year now) has encouraged me to start learning that key since we'll probably use it every now and then. It's a struggle because it feels a lot Eb, so I keep wanting to hit chords I'd normally hit in Eb. I would teach myself to play in all the other keys, but like everything else, if you never use it, you lose it. We used to play in D a lot a few years ago, but we've kinda gotten away from that key. It's been so long since I've used it, I've forgotten some of what I learned.

If we ever learn a song and the lead sheet is written in an "odd ball" key (ie: G flat), we'll either lower it to F or raise to G depending on what's more comfortable for the singers.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: T-Block on October 26, 2007, 03:26:18 PM
It's a struggle because it feels a lot Eb, so I keep wanting to hit chords I'd normally hit in Eb.

Man, that happened to me a lot.  Before I knew it, one hand was playing Db and the other hand was in Eb.  It was a hot mess, lol.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: RMS2003 on October 26, 2007, 03:52:05 PM
Man, that happened to me a lot.  Before I knew it, one hand was playing Db and the other hand was in Eb.  It was a hot mess, lol.

Yep! I hear ya!  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: BimmerFan99 on October 27, 2007, 12:34:22 AM
Those who aren't comfortable in all keys can try this:

Find a small church that really, really needs a keyboardist.  This type of church needs to have one of those old mothers who always strikes up a throw back right after devotion or something... or a praise team that sings in any and every key... or tone-deaf soloists.  Now, the church may not pay much (if at all), but you'll be thrown into a situation where you're going to have to follow them and play in whatever key they start singing in.

First: this will give you the opportunity to test out your skills in a smaller, less demanding environment.  Trying to test out your skills in playing in all 12 keys at your local mega church isn't the best idea.  You'll be too concerned about the crowd and the pressure to really focus.

Second: you won't have to worry too much about making mistakes.  Why?  Because sometimes these churches need a keyboardist so bad, they aren't going to be concerned if you hit a couple wrong chords here or there.  Even if they don't need a keyboardist bad, sometimes they just don't care.  As long as they're jammin' to some music, they'll be satisfied.

Third: the more you play there and hash out your weaknesses, the more your confidence will build.  And, sometimes these churches are more liberal, so you can jam and jam and jam all day long.


I do this now.  The church I play at most Sundays has an average attendance of 15-25.. maybe 30.  They are LIBERAL and they've got a kickin C-3 (it's a little beat up and missing a key but it still jams).  So, I can play most whatever as long as they like it (and they usually like most of it).  They sing everything from old southern traditional jams to stuff by Israel.  The thing is that their praise team and choir aren't any good at keeping notes or keys, so 98% of the time, they start the song and I follow them.  That means they could end up in F#, A, B or E at any moment.  It has incredibly helped me become more comfortable in all keys.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: chevonee on October 27, 2007, 01:47:35 AM
tight as times are around here, for some folks, transposing paid for their house, that's what happened. the rest of us playing in 12 keys can't seem to find stable places to play for a certain amount of comfortable money so we can at least buy a meal at golden corral 3 times a week or something. Man you got some playing in 3 keys making $800 +.
You're absolutely right about this.  ;)



I am not fully able to play in every key yet and it has been extremely hard to break the transposing "learned behavior" but I am on my way to success. I make no excuses for transposing in any case but I admit that its bailed me out of jams because I'm not fluent in all keys yet :-[. When I practice I try to play atleast one song in every key. I am working on a simple song like "Thank you Lord" and I modulate the song. YOu may not be able to instantly be able to play in every key but as long as you are trying to learn, Don't Feel Bad!!! Trying to remember everything in the middle of a service when you've not been playing long can be very challenging BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE!!!! So I encourage everyone to do the best you can to not transpose but don't fall apart if you have to use it every now and then to get you on your way, especially when you play for a church NOW. Feel free to stone me if you'd like for saying this but I'm not going to lie it is a real struggle for me but thank GOD that perfect practice is starting to make perfect. I just really found out how to practice correctly....all of this time I was doing it all totally wrong. :-\
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: trinatrine on October 27, 2007, 06:46:43 PM
Thank you first of all for exposing the truth about transpose.  We just had a guest church and their choir come up last week and the first thing their musician asked if we had transpose on the Clavinova!  I'm like WOOOOOOW!  I don't know how it is for some but I tried it on the Super X-B3 and I couldn't do it.  Probably because I know placement.  I'm not judging those who do use it but I hope that they will come out of that and learn to play in EVERY key!  There will be a time where you will be in a church and all they have is an old piano and there's NO transpose on that!  Keep that in mind!
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: h313w on October 27, 2007, 07:19:41 PM
... and one thing they'll keep in mind is if they are leaving one church to be employed at another, they WILL check on instruments 1st before they ask how many choirs are present, are they looking for minister of music, or even how much they're paying. Not judging either. We just see them hitting the transpose button. Somehow to the chairman and others, that looks right. So they are hired on the spot even. What's that about ?  it's like " is the transpose button present ? OK I'm ready to work then.. and guarantee you happiness". if the electricity goes out, like it did here ( blackout 2003), there's the piano.. with ALL the keys. "OK bad boy, what you gonna do ? what you gonna do when they come for you ?"
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: lilj332 on October 27, 2007, 08:39:36 PM
Those who aren't comfortable in all keys can try this:

Find a small church that really, really needs a keyboardist.  This type of church needs to have one of those old mothers who always strikes up a throw back right after devotion or something... or a praise team that sings in any and every key... or tone-deaf soloists.  Now, the church may not pay much (if at all), but you'll be thrown into a situation where you're going to have to follow them and play in whatever key they start singing in.

yepp yepp, i can relate lol....during the summer i was recommended to a smaller church that really needed an temporary organist.....so i played there, and there were about 40-50 members and they had the old mothers....u kno! [the ones that just get up, start singing, and dont even bother 2 go by the organ to whisper to yah about the song they're gonna singing.]  anyway...i learned how to play in the different keys by following them.....now im back at my own church and i can play in 11/12 keys. i really don't like to transpose on the organ
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: B3Wannabe on October 28, 2007, 07:17:47 AM
First, Db and Eb don't feel the same! ;) ;)

LOL

I don't understand that one. I can see Db and Gb, but Eb?....


I don't transpose now, but I'm with the dude that says leave the transposers alone. I have to work on my scales in all they keys. I have the black ones, C, F, and B down. D is OK, but it's lacking.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: T-Block on October 28, 2007, 07:54:03 AM
First, Db and Eb don't feel the same! ;) ;)

LOL

I don't understand that one. I can see Db and Gb, but Eb?....

You miss the point man.  The point is i was so used to playing in Eb and so not used to playing in Db that my fingers automatically went to my familiar key cuz i didn't pay attention.  It can happen at any in any key i am not that good in.  You get it now?
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: amandaag on October 28, 2007, 10:55:02 AM
i hate playing in Eb and sometimes Ab. But i pretty much get all the white keys down. I also got C# and Bb down too.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: B3Wannabe on October 28, 2007, 05:48:37 PM
You miss the point man.  The point is i was so used to playing in Eb and so not used to playing in Db that my fingers automatically went to my familiar key cuz i didn't pay attention.  It can happen at any in any key i am not that good in.  You get it now?

I was joking with you guys, but serious at the same time.

I know what you mean though. I just never had that problem. I would freeze instead of fumble, because I couldn't think of the next chord shape....I wonder which is worse.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Pianist84 on October 28, 2007, 08:44:00 PM
Thanks for posting this! I never really had to depend on the transpose button anyway. The transpose button hinders you from learning other keys. We should all challenge ourselves to be fluently in all 12 keys.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: B3Wannabe on October 28, 2007, 09:24:40 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/TNBrat/Emotions/Rant-On.gif)

I'm actually tired of this discussion. I don't understand why people would even get upset at someone else for using transpose. It's crazy to me. I've heard people say that you're not a musician, if you don't play in all the keys. Why is that important?

There are people that say you're not a musician, if you can't read music, know theory, or can play scales properly. It's all nonsense to me. The majority of Gospel musicians can't read music, therefore, the majority of Gospel musicians aren't really musicians. If you're going to down someone for using transpose, and you don't know how to read music, then you might as well be called musically-illiterate. If you can play in every key, but your scales are messy, then you're probably not a true musician. If you play the organ, and you STILL don't know what all the drawbars do, or the history behind the organ, then you're probably not a real organist. If you can play in all the keys, but you can't name every chord or progression that you play, then you're probably not a true musician. If you don't transpose, but you're on here asking for chords, THEN YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT A TRUE MUSICIAN!

Real musicians would learn how to do ALL of that.

What's ultimately important is that we give God our best and that we're true when we praise Him. I understand that transposing hinders you, but how many of us do OTHER things that hinder us spiritually.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/TNBrat/Emotions/Rant-Off.gif)


I have my own amen.

(http://forum.mambo-foundation.org/images/smilies/amen.gif)
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Runs_N_12_Keys on October 29, 2007, 08:28:34 AM
Wow wow wow,

Thank you for you Feedback!  I really didn’t expect this Post to be so popular. Honestly; I Didn’t know what to expect but I am glad to see that the majority of you knows how much of a crutch the transpose button can really be,   I can say a lot more on the Subject but it has already been said and confirmed So Again, thanks For your Response and if anyone is interested in becoming apart of the L.A.T Movement Feel free to hit me up  PM or Email me Wholelottablack@yahoo.com  and you can also find me on the tyetribbetworldwide.com under “The Shed that Never Ends”   

Let’s learn as much as we possible can.  The Right Way!!!

L.A.T 4 Life


Thank you!
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: minofmusic on October 29, 2007, 08:34:12 AM
we had a concert saturday night, and the group that performed before us had a Roland Fantom on stage so we decided in order to make a smooth transition we would play the keyboards that wer already set up, my friend coco who played the session with us, sat on the keys(fantom she did a quick run in F but she said it didnt sound right. so she asked me to play F on my keyboard, so i did and it was truly transposed. :o :o no you might say all you gotta do is just fix it right. my friend coco has never transposed because she was taught on a grand piano, she didnt even know where the transpose button was on the fantom. As you can see we couldn't transition smoothly, so we had to call the musician who just played out of the crowd so that he could come back and adjust the transpose button. i felt kinda bad because i couldnt even find the transpose on the fantom. i guess i need to learn all the boards :'( but we finally got it together and jammed for Jesus. just my two cents
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: B3Wannabe on October 29, 2007, 08:56:24 AM
we had a concert saturday night, and the group that performed before us had a Roland Fantom on stage so we decided in order to make a smooth transition we would play the keyboards that wer already set up, my friend coco who played the session with us, sat on the keys(fantom she did a quick run in F but she said it didnt sound right. so she asked me to play F on my keyboard, so i did and it was truly transposed. :o :o no you might say all you gotta do is just fix it right. my friend coco has never transposed because she was taught on a grand piano, she didnt even know where the transpose button was on the fantom. As you can see we couldn't transition smoothly, so we had to call the musician who just played out of the crowd so that he could come back and adjust the transpose button. i felt kinda bad because i couldnt even find the transpose on the fantom. i guess i need to learn all the boards :'( but we finally got it together and jammed for Jesus. just my two cents

I have a reverse for that.

It shouldn't matter if the keyboard was transposed...IF a person knows all their keys fluently. ;)

I've gotten on a keyboard behind someone who had transposed. If it's just a half step, I can't tell, and I'll play the song in the wrong key the whole time. If it's a whole-step, I'll try to fix it. If the pressure is on to start then I'll just un-transpose it mentally. I may not do as well, but hey...it's an exercise for me then! ;) It'll only make me better, so I don't complain.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: chevonee on October 29, 2007, 02:58:11 PM
It's not fair to diagnose the problem without giving a remedy or solution. Don't transpose but here is a way out of transposing...this is how you can learn how to play fluently in every key.....http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,42768.0.html
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Metronome on October 30, 2007, 09:04:12 AM
On some real...........................transpos ing is WHACK!!! It is pointless to me..honestly.  Maybe because I learned how to play on an organ and an acoustic piano lol.  If a person is showing effot to learn their keys then thats cool, I mean not everybody progresses at the same pace.  But if you been playin for 10 years you should not only know 4 keys.  I'm not buying it at all. 
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: ProMaestro on October 30, 2007, 09:28:26 AM
Some people aren't able to use the "hand placement" and stuff when trying to play in another key.  But Ima give you all my take on this transposing.  I think nothing is wrong with it, honestly.  When I started out playing about (more than 15 years ago) I had to use that transpose button because I didn't know jack diddley squat about music.  It was then when my church traveled to another church or something, that I had to learn how to transpose really quick!  I didnt have a reliable keyboard so I used their pianos, some in good order and some not.  Let me tell you...down in the country churches in the back woods of the Carolinas, where the choir can sing bitonally and tritonally, you have to learn how to play in all keys.  If it wasn't for me taking piano lessons and just "churchin'" it, I wouldn't be able to play in all 12 major keys and all 36 different types of minors..and even in some of those ethnic and world keys.  But my point is, don't let a skill determine your playing ability.  First and foremost, all of us musicians should be playing for God and His glory.  Everybody has a different "skill" level in playing.  I do encourage folks to get out of transposing cause you never know when you are going to get to a church that doesn't have that option.  I see the transposing as a teaching tool.  It will help you at anytime.  If someone can only praise and show their God given gift in the key of C or Db, it doesn't matter.  I know God isn't sitting there knockin' the skill and ability of whom He has given.  But on the flip side..any of you all ever play behind a singer that's not in any key?  They are actually between the key.  I had one lady that sang in between F and E.  She was hard down in between those keys.  If I played in F, it sounded off.  If I played in E, it still sounded off.  LOL  How you gonna transpose that?
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: B3Wannabe on October 30, 2007, 09:52:24 AM
Some people aren't able to use the "hand placement" and stuff when trying to play in another key.  But Ima give you all my take on this transposing.  I think nothing is wrong with it, honestly.  When I started out playing about (more than 15 years ago) I had to use that transpose button because I didn't know jack diddley squat about music.  It was then when my church traveled to another church or something, that I had to learn how to transpose really quick!  I didnt have a reliable keyboard so I used their pianos, some in good order and some not.  Let me tell you...down in the country churches in the back woods of the Carolinas, where the choir can sing bitonally and tritonally, you have to learn how to play in all keys.  If it wasn't for me taking piano lessons and just "churchin'" it, I wouldn't be able to play in all 12 major keys and all 36 different types of minors..and even in some of those ethnic and world keys.  But my point is, don't let a skill determine your playing ability.  First and foremost, all of us musicians should be playing for God and His glory.  Everybody has a different "skill" level in playing.  I do encourage folks to get out of transposing cause you never know when you are going to get to a church that doesn't have that option.  I see the transposing as a teaching tool.  It will help you at anytime.  If someone can only praise and show their God given gift in the key of C or Db, it doesn't matter.  I know God isn't sitting there knockin' the skill and ability of whom He has given.  But on the flip side..any of you all ever play behind a singer that's not in any key?  They are actually between the key.  I had one lady that sang in between F and E.  She was hard down in between those keys.  If I played in F, it sounded off.  If I played in E, it still sounded off.  LOL  How you gonna transpose that?

That's when you hit the tuning knob!

LOL
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: chevonee on October 30, 2007, 05:13:33 PM
Some people aren't able to use the "hand placement" and stuff when trying to play in another key.  But Ima give you all my take on this transposing.  I think nothing is wrong with it, honestly.  When I started out playing about (more than 15 years ago) I had to use that transpose button because I didn't know jack diddley squat about music.  It was then when my church traveled to another church or something, that I had to learn how to transpose really quick!  I didnt have a reliable keyboard so I used their pianos, some in good order and some not.  Let me tell you...down in the country churches in the back woods of the Carolinas, where the choir can sing bitonally and tritonally, you have to learn how to play in all keys.  If it wasn't for me taking piano lessons and just "churchin'" it, I wouldn't be able to play in all 12 major keys and all 36 different types of minors..and even in some of those ethnic and world keys.  But my point is, don't let a skill determine your playing ability.  First and foremost, all of us musicians should be playing for God and His glory.  Everybody has a different "skill" level in playing.  I do encourage folks to get out of transposing cause you never know when you are going to get to a church that doesn't have that option.  I see the transposing as a teaching tool.  It will help you at anytime.  If someone can only praise and show their God given gift in the key of C or Db, it doesn't matter.  I know God isn't sitting there knockin' the skill and ability of whom He has given.  But on the flip side..any of you all ever play behind a singer that's not in any key?  They are actually between the key.  I had one lady that sang in between F and E.  She was hard down in between those keys.  If I played in F, it sounded off.  If I played in E, it still sounded off.  LOL  How you gonna transpose that?

I can agree with this part. To me as long as you are striving to get better then no one should knock you.....because atleast you are trying. I don't get it right all of the time, but you better believe that I am striving as hard as I can to be the best that I can be. I am very, very close to be able to play in all 12. I just got serious about playing last year, and look how far God has brought me. It can be done, but it takes different people a different amount of time to learn. That's what this site is all about LEARNING!
Again we should provide solutions to the problem and not just talk about the problem. What can young musicians do to learn how to play in every key? Some of them simply don't know what to do which is why I give this link so that they can go there and get help. We should stay in balance and get on to people about transposing but make sure that you show them what to do. http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,42768.0.html
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Runs_N_12_Keys on November 14, 2007, 04:42:08 PM
What's up to all my LAT's and up and Coming LAT's

My Crew host Phone shed's every Wednesday at 10PM (EST)

If you are interested in participating heres the number:

(218) 862-1115

Conference ID:
25321#

See Hear you there!!

LAT 4 Life!!


Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: MrSparrow on November 14, 2007, 10:36:46 PM
Yo RUNS... what up padna???

I don't log on that much in here but I think people are misunderstanding the L.A.T. movement.

Kats that just started out learning how to play don't quite understand the REALATIONSHIP the keys and chords have with each other... They are babes and babes can't eat steak, they have to drink milk.

You ever seen a 4 year old kid wearing diapers and sucking on a bottle? I'm not talking about a mentally or physically challenged kids I'm talking about kids who's parents are just LAZY and haven't taken the time to ween them off of the bottle and to potty train them...

To me and the LATs that's what cats that been playing for 2-20 years and can only play in C, F and G look like to us.

I mean, WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN A DIFFERENT KEY a week? Is it THAT hard or are you just LAZY???

I know about 3 cats that are just like that and the main thing about them all is they THINK THEY ARE JUST DAT DUDE!!!! ::) ?/? just as arrogant as can be...

Maybe that's just a Florida thing...

This is why we're calling the VETERANS out. God called us to be SKILLFUL and to hone our skills as we render service to HIM. Cats that don't even bother to improve just irk me.

MrSparrow
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: T-Block on November 15, 2007, 07:54:08 AM
It all goes back to people wanting to play good now.  So, they sacrifice time and developing their skills in every key for pushing a button to sound like a pro in a month when a lot of people been at it for 10+ years w/out the transpose button.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Wolfram on November 16, 2007, 05:05:23 PM
([url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/TNBrat/Emotions/Rant-On.gif[/url])

I'm actually tired of this discussion. I don't understand why people would even get upset at someone else for using transpose. It's crazy to me. I've heard people say that you're not a musician, if you don't play in all the keys. Why is that important?

There are people that say you're not a musician, if you can't read music, know theory, or can play scales properly. It's all nonsense to me. The majority of Gospel musicians can't read music, therefore, the majority of Gospel musicians aren't really musicians. If you're going to down someone for using transpose, and you don't know how to read music, then you might as well be called musically-illiterate. If you can play in every key, but your scales are messy, then you're probably not a true musician. If you play the organ, and you STILL don't know what all the drawbars do, or the history behind the organ, then you're probably not a real organist. If you can play in all the keys, but you can't name every chord or progression that you play, then you're probably not a true musician. If you don't transpose, but you're on here asking for chords, THEN YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT A TRUE MUSICIAN!

Real musicians would learn how to do ALL of that.

What's ultimately important is that we give God our best and that we're true when we praise Him. I understand that transposing hinders you, but how many of us do OTHER things that hinder us spiritually.

([url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/TNBrat/Emotions/Rant-Off.gif[/url])


I have my own amen.

([url]http://forum.mambo-foundation.org/images/smilies/amen.gif[/url])


Thank you and I will give you that AMEN...

I struggled getting throught the theory instruction in Gospel music because it was not presented in a standard practiced way.  Many of the ways people learn how to voice chords here are based on left|right configurations.  I bought a book that was suppose to be THE coolest book around for advanced Gospel voicings...  I couldn't read it....  WHY?  Because it was written for people that do not read standard musical notation.   There were lyrics with LH|RH notes and no rhythms or actual musical notations on the page....  This was very hard to decipher.   Figuring a tune out in one key was great....  Moving that to another when it is a completely foreign language was another.   

WHY do I bring this up...  For the same reason that all of you are harping on people for using that "cheater button".  If you want to walk down the path of what "Learning your craft" truly is, you will have to take the foot out of your mouth, place it firmly on the floor and hit the books.  For while we "cheaters" are still learning to get comfortable in the ways of voicings in all keys foreign to us, I challenge those of you that cannot not read music but can play by "rote" or by ear in 12 keys to actually learn to read music in those keys.

I play in twelve keys on sax.  I can play in twelve keys on jazz organ.  Gospel is WAY different.  It uses different muscles memory and sometimes I am not comfortable taking a tune from Db to B major on the fly in front of the congregation after only a short rehearsal.  Am I a decent player?  In my comfort zone, you betcha...  This is a new feel / style.  I won't interrupt the service so my ego can be stroked and I can say I butchered a hymn in all twelve keys.  I have a function to perform, worshipping to do, praise to give and that is my priority.  I cannot do that if I am guessing.

Some day, I hope that I can have the Gospel chops that some of you guys do, likewise I hope you take me up on the challenge and some day we can revisit this and you can say, "Hey, Wolf!  I can read and write standard musical notation"  Music is a constant growing experience.  If you believe you have reached the pinnacle of your craft, it is time to look once again at the mirror that humbles us all.

Wolf

Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: themidiroom on November 19, 2007, 09:49:45 AM

I'm actually tired of this discussion. I don't understand why people would even get upset at someone else for using transpose. It's crazy to me. I've heard people say that you're not a musician, if you don't play in all the keys. Why is that important?

I had a guy tell me you're not a real musician unless it is your primary income.  I guess musicianship is in the ears of the beholder.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: keyz28 on November 28, 2007, 08:11:26 AM
i hope i dont start anything crazy.. but i TOTALLY DISAGREE... transposing has actually been a tool that has helped me learn all my keyz... abstractkeyz
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: themidiroom on November 28, 2007, 10:28:47 AM
i hope i dont start anything crazy.. but i TOTALLY DISAGREE... transposing has actually been a tool that has helped me learn all my keyz... abstractkeyz
Years ago, I played keybass at a church and their minister of music transposed everything.  Initially I thought he was really good until I found out he was only good in one key.  He was really sloppy with it too.  He would frequently forget to adjust between songs.  When I started at my current church, I transposed until I learned enough songs to make it through service.  My goal was and is to learn the songs in the right keys and be able to improvise or even transpose on the fly if someone does a solo in the wrong key.  While I don't get mad at musicians that transpose, it isn't professional to use it as a crutch.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: T-Block on November 29, 2007, 10:56:55 AM
i hope i dont start anything crazy.. but i TOTALLY DISAGREE... transposing has actually been a tool that has helped me learn all my keyz... abstractkeyz

How did you use transpose to learn all your keys?  Just curious.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: momuzik on November 29, 2007, 11:58:41 AM
Years ago, I played keybass at a church ....

Don't mean to sound ignorant, but what is a keybass?
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: themidiroom on November 29, 2007, 12:18:12 PM
Don't mean to sound ignorant, but what is a keybass?
Keybass is just a name for playing the bass lines on a keyboard.  I used to play in a gospel quartet and the bassist quit so I started playing his part and it stuck. 
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Wash on November 29, 2007, 12:26:05 PM
It's tight but it's right!!

Definitely is.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Wash on November 29, 2007, 12:27:23 PM
Man, I want to be like all of yall when I get older!! LOL!!!  AND THATS A REAL RAPP!!!  Bishop Cole

You go Bishop.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Runs_N_12_Keys on November 30, 2007, 12:26:52 PM
Keybass is just a name for playing the bass lines on a keyboard.  I used to play in a gospel quartet and the bassist quit so I started playing his part and it stuck. 


I Love Quartet!!

A Diga Diga Diga Get That POWER!!!!!

any of you Catz remember when D'angelo, Raphel Saadiq, Questlove, Spanky (Mighty Clouds of Joy) and Ali (Tribe called Quest)
Flipped "Lady" into Quartet Drive...

I will Never forget that...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MgkUBChUzuE&feature=related

Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: keyz28 on December 06, 2007, 01:51:34 PM
well how i learned.. was i used to transpose to force myself to play in the uncommon keyz.. .like D, E, A, B,  like i said... i disagree with this forum... i have used transpose to help me learn my keyz..  like when i used to be on keyboard.. my organist would be in Ab and i would put myself in A.... so when we both sat down on a real piano... i wouldnt embarass myself... here is a clip of me playin in the key of D natural                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxg2meEagw

Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: themidiroom on December 06, 2007, 02:59:50 PM
well how i learned.. was i used to transpose to force myself to play in the uncommon keyz.. .like D, E, A, B,  like i said... i disagree with this forum... i have used transpose to help me learn my keyz..  like when i used to be on keyboard.. my organist would be in Ab and i would put myself in A.... so when we both sat down on a real piano... i wouldnt embarass myself... here is a clip of me playin in the key of D natural                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxg2meEagw[/url]



Hmmmm That actually makes a lot of sense.  I suppose the main issue musicians have with others transposing is the fact that most of us put in the time to learn all the keys.  Musicians that transpose so they only have to learn one key are just cheating. 
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: BimmerFan99 on December 06, 2007, 06:33:53 PM
I think the consensus is that using the transpose feature as a crutch is a problem.  If you use it as a learning tool or maybe every blue moon when you're in a bind, that's one thing.  If you only play in C and rely on the transpose key to get you through service, then that's another.

Either way, the only person it's going to affect is you the musician.  If you don't take the time to learn your keys, you are only hindering yourself.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: themidiroom on December 07, 2007, 07:27:56 AM
I think the consensus is that using the transpose feature as a crutch is a problem.  If you use it as a learning tool or maybe every blue moon when you're in a bind, that's one thing.  If you only play in C and rely on the transpose key to get you through service, then that's another.

Either way, the only person it's going to affect is you the musician.  If you don't take the time to learn your keys, you are only hindering yourself.
Like Bishop Cole says THATS A RAPP!!
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: kenlacam on December 07, 2007, 04:39:28 PM
I couldn't transpose if I wanted to, because Hammonds don't have that option, but....



transposing IS a personal choice, and it is not a sin.....
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: PianoWizard on December 08, 2007, 05:33:48 PM
Welcome to the LGM family "kenlacam".....Be Blessed.

PianoWiz...
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Rjthakid on December 10, 2007, 07:32:42 AM
I couldn't transpose if I wanted to, because Hammonds don't have that option, but....



transposing IS a personal choice, and it is not a sin.....

Nobody said it was a sin.  If someone got up and sang Total Praise in B, and I was in a service, I'd reach for that Transpose.

But as Bimmerfan99 said:

If you use it as a learning tool or maybe every blue moon when you're in a bind, that's one thing.  If you only play in C and rely on the transpose key to get you through service, then that's another.

That's the bottomline.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: under13 on December 10, 2007, 08:19:04 AM
  If someone got up and sang Total Praise in B, and I was in a service, I'd reach for that Transpose.


And if you were on the organ w/ no transpose???

There are two ways you could pull that off: know the theory and mentaly transpose the notes down a couple of keys or get VERY familiar with the keyboard and just know where the notes are located. The singers would not have a problem singing it in B So why should we. The same way they know where the notes are in thier voice we should know where the notes are on the keyboard. It may take a while but the more you work on your ear and listen and practice you will be able to play anything in any key

I could never use a transposed keyboard cuz i'd be reaching for certain notes and would end up with the wrong notes because they were not in the place they belong. Imagine how a cook would feel if you rearanged thier kitchen,  or how a preacher would feel if you rearanged the books in his bible, he would reach for revealation and find Proverbs.

Am I making sense?   Thats just how i feel

When you start to play in service with a band full of top notch musicians and preachers, the transpose wont work for you these guys will leave you in the dust while your messin w/ the t-pose tyin to find the key they are in

my 3 cents
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: themidiroom on December 10, 2007, 08:32:56 AM
I could never use a transposed keyboard cuz i'd be reaching for certain notes and would end up with the wrong notes because they were not in the place they belong. Imagine how a cook would feel if you rearanged thier kitchen,  or how a preacher would feel if you rearanged the books in his bible, he would reach for revealation and find
I had to transpose a song at a wedding because the singer couldn't reach the high notes.  It felt weird but I pulled it off. 
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: kenlacam on December 10, 2007, 12:27:48 PM
This is a VERy interesting topic, indeed. In the many years of playing (and I'm ashamed to admit this)but there are still several keys that I just don't feel comfortable in for various songs. For example, if somone started singing "Total Praise" in B nat, I'd be totally lost, and have to mentally figure out how to make it work. I guess that's where practice comes into play...(P.S.) B Nat is not one of my fave keys, as well as A nat, D nat, and E nat......Lord Forgive me!
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: themidiroom on December 10, 2007, 01:59:55 PM
This is a VERy interesting topic, indeed. In the many years of playing (and I'm ashamed to admit this)but there are still several keys that I just don't feel comfortable in for various songs. For example, if somone started singing "Total Praise" in B nat, I'd be totally lost, and have to mentally figure out how to make it work. I guess that's where practice comes into play...(P.S.) B Nat is not one of my fave keys, as well as A nat, D nat, and E nat......Lord Forgive me!
I know the feeling.  I would probably think in terms of the pattern and apply it to the key you're playing in.  I'm not a huge fan of the key of B either but having played plenty Stevie Wonder songs, I can get by.  8)
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: chevonee on December 10, 2007, 06:03:04 PM
This is a VERy interesting topic, indeed. In the many years of playing (and I'm ashamed to admit this)but there are still several keys that I just don't feel comfortable in for various songs. For example, if somone started singing "Total Praise" in B nat, I'd be totally lost, and have to mentally figure out how to make it work. I guess that's where practice comes into play...(P.S.) B Nat is not one of my fave keys, as well as A nat, D nat, and E nat......Lord Forgive me!

Please don't feel bad. Everyone of us have struggled to get where we are. Only a few people can sit at a keyboard and instantly play without any training or theory. But as for people like you and I who desire to get better there's places like this
http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,42768.0.html
That will help you on your way. Just read over the basic theory link and try to apply it the best you can. If you get stuck then please ask someone for help. This site was created to help people LEARN how to be the best at what they do. God bless!!!
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: amandaag on December 10, 2007, 06:31:29 PM
How did you use transpose to learn all your keys?  Just curious.

that's what i wanna know....  ?/?
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Metronome on December 10, 2007, 06:53:09 PM
that's what i wanna know....  ?/?

Its actually quite easy..........
Say you only been playin for 2 months, but you can hold it down a lil in C#.  You are familiar with the way C# sounds.  So, you take a key you don know, like A natural and transpose it to C#, that way you're playin in A hearing C#, eventually you take the transpose off and you are good.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Ladyn on December 11, 2007, 02:32:23 PM
Quote
Its actually quite easy..........
Say you only been playin for 2 months, but you can hold it down a lil in C#.  You are familiar with the way C# sounds.  So, you take a key you don know, like A natural and transpose it to C#, that way you're playin in A hearing C#, eventually you take the transpose off and you are good.

OK, I see.  But you are using it as a tool to learn a NEW key.  One question though, Did it seem strange at all because you were playing A and hearing C#?  I think for ME it would hinder me more than help.  But again that is just me. Though I do see a benefit in using it this way. 
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Metronome on December 11, 2007, 04:09:02 PM
I didn't use this......I have perfect pitch so I couldn't.  I have friends who have done this.  They didn't really do it so much for learning "how to play" but as to getting comfortable with the key. Its kind of wierd.  They could play basic stuff in the key, as can anyone if they try.  but they wanted to expand their playing into phat chords and stuff so thats how they did it
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: T-Block on December 16, 2007, 04:10:54 PM
Its actually quite easy..........
Say you only been playin for 2 months, but you can hold it down a lil in C#.  You are familiar with the way C# sounds.  So, you take a key you don know, like A natural and transpose it to C#, that way you're playin in A hearing C#, eventually you take the transpose off and you are good.

I used to use transpose like this as well.  But, I only used it to check myself to make sure I'm hitting the write notes in an unfamiliar key.  This is a great way to effectively use the T-button to help you learn.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: T-Block on December 16, 2007, 04:14:43 PM
One question though, Did it seem strange at all because you were playing A and hearing C#?

It will seem strange at first, but remember C# is C# (or any other note) no matter where it's played on the board.  So, basically it's like playing strictly by ear, but you learning the finger patterns in that key you transposed to.  Does that make sense?

Only the perfect pitch people will go crazy using this method, LOL.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: themidiroom on December 17, 2007, 09:17:42 AM


Only the perfect pitch people will go crazy using this method, LOL.
I must have perfect pitch then.  Thanks T-Block  ;D
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: TySpeaks on January 10, 2008, 09:57:44 AM
Transposing is bad, but if you are very fluent and comfortable in a certain area then I think sometimes it might be necessary. My favorites in order are: Bb, F, Eb, Ab, and C is okay but it bores me. ( idunno y) If I'm ata church playing and I've never heard the song, then I'd find it easier to figure out the changes in Bb. So i'd transpose. Bb to me is comfortable, not easier, but physically, with my hand size it feels the best. But given time to learn a song, I'd learn it in the written key, I like to hop off the keys and re-vamp a song on the organ. Basically, transpose to me, is for emergency purposes only. But...I know...it's still bad. lol :-[
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: organman88 on January 10, 2008, 03:09:24 PM
transposing is WRONG it is cheating LEARN YOUR CRAFT many musicians walk around with a big head and only can play in one key and to me if you dont know your basic thoery like scales and basic traid chords then you cant play no matter how could you sound
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Metronome on January 11, 2008, 03:09:14 PM
transposing is WRONG it is cheating LEARN YOUR CRAFT many musicians walk around with a big head and only can play in one key and to me if you dont know your basic thoery like scales and basic traid chords then you cant play no matter how could you sound
Lol............didn't know you were on here son..................but you givin em the cold hard facts.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: momuzik on January 15, 2008, 07:23:53 AM
transposing is WRONG it is cheating LEARN YOUR CRAFT ...

The bottom line to this whole transposing thing is it's a personal choice; there's no law against it. Think about it for a minute, maybe the keyboardist doesn't desire to be a "Herbie Hancock" (or whoever). Maybe learning 1 or 2 keys just to get by is fine with them ... leav'em be - to each his own.
Title: Re: Are you Still Transposing?
Post by: Metronome on January 15, 2008, 11:17:47 AM
The bottom line to this whole transposing thing is it's a personal choice; there's no law against it. Think about it for a minute, maybe the keyboardist doesn't desire to be a "Herbie Hancock" (or whoever). Maybe learning 1 or 2 keys just to get by is fine with them ... leav'em be - to each his own.


Also true...........but if you gonna do that dont go around like a lot of cats do and think you are the sweetest dude ever.  One of my boys plays in only a flat.  But he is a giggin drummer who does it on the side.  Does he think he his the best thing since sliced bread?  Lol no.  You got cats who only play keyboard (not organ or piano) in Eb and Ab and swear up and down that they can outplay the best of the best.  NOT COOL