how to get phat voicings instantly

[CESharp]

WHAAAATTTTTTT??? Wow, that's a lot to swallow............ya'll go 'head

As Celie says in The Color Purple:  "I'm just gonna stand back and see what color the wall gonna be!" Which means............ya'll talking 12th grade and I'm in the 3rd grade.

Ain't the people/members of this site awesome?

[diverse379]

Eggs I re read what you said are you sure you have it?

If you do it right you automaticlly have four triads for each shell plus you have the four notes of the related diminished to borrow giving you 64 possible combinations

you over simplified it I think

I could be wrong if I am my apologies 

Read what Elio wrote again because he doesent stop at the A he then lowered the A to Ab and built a diminished on the Ab and that gave him four triads to put over the left hand shell

and each chord of the scale can be treated like that except the cord built on the seventh degree of the scale because it has a flat five

I like Eloios explanation too it is shorter and you can follow it a little easier

and it is right on the money 

Elio drop a progression on a brother let me hear what you can do with this

[diverse379]

My apologies Eggs you are correct I had to read it like ten times You said dominant seventh instead of flatted seventh that is what threw me but let me show you something

you said the the flat 2nd is too  bold I trhink I can show you where it sounds smooth In the key of Bb

Lets say you are about to end and  you want to go to the G to set up the 2-5-1 back to Bb
try this

F/F, Bb, D --  D, F#/ F# Bb C, Eb ---  G/ F,A,Bb, D

Then you go to your 2-5-1

I used a minor 6 chord on the Flat 2nd of D intead of a if you think diminshed on the flat second it works for all chords except the dominant chord dominant chords must use the diminished on its own third and it uses a minor 6 on the flat 2nd

This same configuration can be p;ayed ove the Bb note as well

try this

Bb/ F, A, C, D,      Bb/ F# Bb C, Eb  go back and forth slowly four beats each then do a 7-3-6-  and do another vamp  like I did below

A/ G, A, C, Eb---- D/ F#, Bb, D, Eb
G/ A, A, B, D, ----D/ F# Bb, C, Eb  repeat three times

This comes from Thad Jones A child is Born 

 

[playhear]

Now we're talking!!! Thank you for this thread diverse379. If you don't hear from me it's because I'm busy trying to digest this.

[Eggs]

Diverse,

I'm with ya.... I'll try it out when I get home on the board tonight.  This looks like a great example.
Keep it comin'. 

I'll holla. 

Question:  The major/minor triad thing is a matter of taste with this?

Eggs

[diverse379]

Got your question Eggs

 I guess anything is tasters choice like Melvin Crispell says but

what I gave you is a small piece to a bigger puzzle so if you want to stay within Barry's concept dominant chords play a shell against a minor 6 chord a half step up he calls it the important monor because it is the minor that leads to the dominant chords tritone

the tritone of D7 is Ab 7 and Eb-7 leads to Ab7 so you can play the Eb-6 against the D7 shell  and you can also do 1-2-1- moves from eb-6 and F diminished

Oh no Not again too complicated


here play this and you will see why it is not a matter of taste
hold D and C in your left hand while your right hand goes up the Eb minor scale in 1-2-1 harmony (the 2 is diminished )

  Eb, F#, Bb, C, -- F, Ab, B, D, -- F#, Bb, C, Eb,-- Ab, B, D, F,--- Bb, C, Eb,F#,
This is real basic he does all kinds of tricks with this stuff that Yo u just have to hear

but you can hear how well that goes together because the Ab is the tritone

I wish I knew and under stood it more but as I digest it  I will shae it thank you for your patience and interest


D C/ Eb F# Bb C---

[musicmandan]

diverse379: I have been studying your post for a few days, and while trying to use it I came up with what I think is a shortcut to your formula. Would I be correct if I said you could go down a whole step from the chord you want to color and build a diminished chord off of that, except for the seventh degree (which is half-diminished already) where you would go down a step and a half? I wrote this out over a few keys and it seems to hold up. I know theory basics but I've only been playing piano for 7 months (I'm a bassist) so I could be missing something from your explanation. Am I right on this analysis?

[diverse379]

 To music man
You are correct when itr comes to lminor7 and major 7 chords
but not when you are talking  about the dominant chord the dominant chords diminished is found on the the third degree of the chord

I believe that is why it was explained that way (  the complicated way)

I know there are easier ways to look at it or shortcuts to understanding it

but you miss the bigger picture the family of diminished chords I presented is one of several concepts Barry Harris uses so it is mportant when learning any system to learn it as it is before any shortcuts are taken

But for now I suppose it is best for people to learn it the way they can but do you see how

Now when I first learned the system I used to play two or three of the Triads over a shell as a run and end up on the next chord in the progression

like if I was going from F to Bb to Eb-7 I would play F triad D triad and B triad over the Bb shell end then go to my Eb-7

And i thought that was alll to it but it is called the family for a reason and It will be revealed as you further explore the concepts

Try to see it for the dominant chordthe diminished is coming from for that will show you what scale to use over the chord

if you just look at it as a whole step down you lose half of the science

look at it this way

If i ask you what family belongs to F# major 7 in the key of c# you would say using your formula use the triads built on each note of E  but if I said what chords do those triads move to or what scalses do you play over any of those you may say Wa????

now with the method I learned and presented I would say well the dominant chord of F#maj7 is Db (Thats one scale to use) and its Diminished is found on the Third which is f ( THATS ANOTHER SCALE THE f DIMINISHED SCALE)

and since f is my diminihsed the f diminished belongs to Eb sou can harmonize using Eb minor  using 1-2-1

you can also do a 1-4 progression in Eb minor over the F#major
F#, Bb/ Eb, Ab, C, ----Db, F#, Bb-

you can alo do a 5 of 5 the Db is the 5 of F# and the Ab is the % of Db so you can play F3 diminished to f diminihed and resolve on the F3 major



F# Db/ F# A, C, Eb, ---F, Ab, B, D, -----F, F3, Bb, Db


there is so much more that I dont know  yet but a lot of the small mobvements that sound so pretty

I am just saying that there is a lot more to this system then learning some accents to your voicings

What about the concept of borrowing

take that same F3 major chord the Major 7 on the F# which is that F natural was borrowed from its related diminished  when you play an Ab ( the ninth) on the F# you are borrowing a note from its diminished

And the diminshed belongs to Eb minor

so I can get this move

F#, Db/ Ab------Ab, D/ Bb----Bb, Eb/B---B, F,/ Db-----Bb, Ab/Bb Db, F

How did I get that?

My not taking a short cut but looking at where these chords come from and how they are reslated

Trust me I dont know anything about this system but I can explore it because I understand its basic rules But to be honest when I first learned it I di what everone did I looked for an Easier way to understand it and in Doing it Inever understood it
It wasnt until I put up this post that I really began to understand the wisdom of relating everything to the dominant chord

If you can understand the basic rules there is no need to find the short cut if you could come up with that method you explained to me you can look at it the more complicated way

using the dominants but that is the way that reveals the science of the chord changes you are a bass player you know how important the cycle of 5hs are '

you can do a whole run using two boxes one fret apart going from low to high thats the cycle right

Dominants are important our music sopins on it.

I hOpe I did not preach too much


I thank you for taking the time To learn This concept I shared

I hope it blesses you and your ministry

[sjonathan02]

 To music man
You are correct when itr comes to lminor7 and major 7 chords
but not when you are talking  about the dominant chord the dominant chords diminished is found on the the third degree of the chord

I believe that is why it was explained that way (  the complicated way)

I know there are easier ways to look at it or shortcuts to understanding it

but you miss the bigger picture the family of diminished chords I presented is one of several concepts Barry Harris uses so it is mportant when learning any system to learn it as it is before any shortcuts are taken

But for now I suppose it is best for people to learn it the way they can but do you see how

Now when I first learned the system I used to play two or three of the Triads over a shell as a run and end up on the next chord in the progression

like if I was going from F to Bb to Eb-7 I would play F triad D triad and B triad over the Bb shell end then go to my Eb-7

And i thought that was alll to it but it is called the family for a reason and It will be revealed as you further explore the concepts

Try to see it for the dominant chordthe diminished is coming from for that will show you what scale to use over the chord

if you just look at it as a whole step down you lose half of the science

look at it this way

If i ask you what family belongs to F# major 7 in the key of c# you would say using your formula use the triads built on each note of E  but if I said what chords do those triads move to or what scalses do you play over any of those you may say Wa????

now with the method I learned and presented I would say well the dominant chord of F#maj7 is Db (Thats one scale to use) and its Diminished is found on the Third which is f ( THATS ANOTHER SCALE THE f DIMINISHED SCALE)

and since f is my diminihsed the f diminished belongs to Eb sou can harmonize using Eb minor  using 1-2-1

you can also do a 1-4 progression in Eb minor over the F#major
F#, Bb/ Eb, Ab, C, ----Db, F#, Bb-

you can alo do a 5 of 5 the Db is the 5 of F# and the Ab is the % of Db so you can play F3 diminished to f diminihed and resolve on the F3 major



F# Db/ F# A, C, Eb, ---F, Ab, B, D, -----F, F3, Bb, Db


there is so much more that I dont know  yet but a lot of the small mobvements that sound so pretty

I am just saying that there is a lot more to this system then learning some accents to your voicings

What about the concept of borrowing

take that same F3 major chord the Major 7 on the F# which is that F natural was borrowed from its related diminished  when you play an Ab ( the ninth) on the F# you are borrowing a note from its diminished

And the diminshed belongs to Eb minor

so I can get this move

F#, Db/ Ab------Ab, D/ Bb----Bb, Eb/B---B, F,/ Db-----Bb, Ab/Bb Db, F

How did I get that?

My not taking a short cut but looking at where these chords come from and how they are reslated

Trust me I dont know anything about this system but I can explore it because I understand its basic rules But to be honest when I first learned it I di what everone did I looked for an Easier way to understand it and in Doing it Inever understood it
It wasnt until I put up this post that I really began to understand the wisdom of relating everything to the dominant chord

If you can understand the basic rules there is no need to find the short cut if you could come up with that method you explained to me you can look at it the more complicated way

using the dominants but that is the way that reveals the science of the chord changes you are a bass player you know how important the cycle of 5hs are '

you can do a whole run using two boxes one fret apart going from low to high thats the cycle right

Dominants are important our music sopins on it.

I hOpe I did not preach too much


I thank you for taking the time To learn This concept I shared

I hope it blesses you and your ministry

Anybody got the crib notes to this book up hea? 

[diverse379]

 to Sjonathon

SSHHHH


I dont want anyone to know I am long winded

[diverse379]

From now on I will put my chord examples at the bottom or top of my posts so anyone who just wants to hear what I am talking about can get right to it

I aim to please 

[Eggs]

Hey Diverse,


Thanks for your posts.  I follow you.  I like the idea of moving in different scales in each hand.... and I guess that's why
this is so interesting to me.  Using a minor6th on the flatted 2nd as a pass to the tritone substitution is deep man! 

Can you give me another example of a well known song that I might know?  (Unfortunately, I don't know the Thad one)

Keep it comin',
God bless,
eggs

[sjonathan02]

From now on I will put my chord examples at the bottom or top of my posts so anyone who just wants to hear what I am talking about can get right to it

I aim to please 

Wanna really please?


Do a video of this concept (I'm a visual learner). Talk slow, and if you explain while doing, then you can be as long-winded as you'd like. 

[diverse379]

Sjonathon
Thats a very good Idea If  and when  I get a video camera  I will try it I may need some help putting it together but I am sure some of you will help me

Thank you I knew you were alright you had me wondering for a moment though
 

Eggs A song that is close in idea to the thad Jones song is He'll meet my needs or God Will Suopply on the Potters house albulm

not exactly the same but they do a nice 7-3-6 2-1/5 3-6 2-5-1 at the end

and I use the exact changes from the thad jones song to play it


But Remember all of you who appreciate this stuff I am presenting It I am Just learning it Too and I learned it in a jazz context on corny old songs from the 30,s so I would really like to see how you guys are applying it

I am starting to feel neglected Eggs

 ???

Why oh why have you all abandoned me to be left out in the cold searching for truth in my congretations ear.

 

[Eggs]

searching for truth in my congretations ear

That sounds like the gecco lizard!   

I'll try to come up with somethin', but I'm new to this too! 

Eggs

[diverse379]

LMHO 

[Eggs]

While I was looking at this on the board this weekend, I noticed that C diminished and Gb diminished are the same chord.
So in terms of what the official related diminished chord is for Ab is concerned, I don't think it matters because you'll end
up with the same triads no matter which note you use, namely ... C,Eb,Gb,A.

And in addition, I also noticed this... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is major in the key that you are
playing in, then you can use a major third to find the diminished family... and likewise, if the dominant of the chord is
minor in the base key, than you can use a minor third to find the diminished family:

I'll stay with the key of C#, like the rest of the thread... if we are voicing Ab, we take the dominant which is Eb... now,
Eb is minor in the original key of C#, so we take a minor third, which is Gb... and this gives us the related diminished family...
now, if we wanted to voice C#, we take the dominant, which is Ab... and since Ab is major in the key of C#, we then take
a major third, which gives us the diminished family of C.

Diverse, I noticed in this thread, that you seemed unsure of when to lower notes on the third of the dominant when
finding the related diminished family... well using the method I mentioned, I find that I don't need to lower any notes at all...
the major or minor third rule gives you the diminished family of roots on which you build your right hand triads without lowering
any notes... try it. 

And then, there's one more thing that I noticed... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is minor is the base
key, then you can use the major third of the root of the chord you are voicing to find the diminished notes... so look at
Ab in the key of C# again... the dominant of Ab is Eb, and since Eb is minor in the key of C#, we can use the major third
of Ab to find the diminished notes... the major third of Ab is C... and even though we can say that the relative diminished
family of Ab is Gb by the dominant method above, C diminished is still in that family, as I stated in the beginning of the post...
and therefore we end up with the same family of notes to build the triads on...  now look at C#, the tonic... we've already
determined earlier that the related diminished of C# is C using the dominant method, with Ab being the dominant of C#...
now, since Ab is major in the key of C#, we cannot use the major third of C# to find the diminished family... let's try it...
the major third of C# is F, and F is not in the C diminished family... so the shortcut appears to work only when the dominant
of the chord being voiced is minor is the base key that you're playing in... 

So there you have it... and I'm no expert... in fact, I'm a beginner in theory... studying to show myself approved unto God...

So Diverse, and all ya'll... am I way off track, or is this making sense to somebody? 

God bless,
Eggs

[sjonathan02]

While I was looking at this on the board this weekend, I noticed that C diminished and Gb diminished are the same chord.
So in terms of what the official related diminished chord is for Ab is concerned, I don't think it matters because you'll end
up with the same triads no matter which note you use, namely ... C,Eb,Gb,A.

And in addition, I also noticed this... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is major in the key that you are
playing in, then you can use a major third to find the diminished family... and likewise, if the dominant of the chord is
minor in the base key, than you can use a minor third to find the diminished family:

I'll stay with the key of C#, like the rest of the thread... if we are voicing Ab, we take the dominant which is Eb... now,
Eb is minor in the original key of C#, so we take a minor third, which is Gb... and this gives us the related diminished family...
now, if we wanted to voice C#, we take the dominant, which is Ab... and since Ab is major in the key of C#, we then take
a major third, which gives us the diminished family of C.

Diverse, I noticed in this thread, that you seemed unsure of when to lower notes on the third of the dominant when
finding the related diminished family... well using the method I mentioned, I find that I don't need to lower any notes at all...
the major or minor third rule gives you the diminished family of roots on which you build your right hand triads without lowering
any notes... try it. 

And then, there's one more thing that I noticed... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is minor is the base
key, then you can use the major third of the root of the chord you are voicing to find the diminished notes... so look at
Ab in the key of C# again... the dominant of Ab is Eb, and since Eb is minor in the key of C#, we can use the major third
of Ab to find the diminished notes... the major third of Ab is C... and even though we can say that the relative diminished
family of Ab is Gb by the dominant method above, C diminished is still in that family, as I stated in the beginning of the post...
and therefore we end up with the same family of notes to build the triads on...  now look at C#, the tonic... we've already
determined earlier that the related diminished of C# is C using the dominant method, with Ab being the dominant of C#...
now, since Ab is major in the key of C#, we cannot use the major third of C# to find the diminished family... let's try it...
the major third of C# is F, and F is not in the C diminished family... so the shortcut appears to work only when the dominant
of the chord being voiced is minor is the base key that you're playing in... 

So there you have it... and I'm no expert... in fact, I'm a beginner in theory... studying to show myself approved unto God...

So Diverse, and all ya'll... am I way off track, or is this making sense to somebody? 

God bless,
Eggs

I don't know about anyone else, but can you do me a favor?.....

Put your example in progression format. It may be easier for us visual folks to understand what you're saying.


Thanks,

[diverse379]

Sjonathon
All due respect Eggs was sending this because I asked for it The theory behind it is what helps us get to the progression examples

I dont want to just see the progression I am interested in the thought process behind it.

Dont worry eggs keep it coming And I thank you for sharing didnt even read it yet because I had to respond to sjonathon first

[sjonathan02]

Sjonathon
All due respect Eggs was sending this because I asked for it The theory behind it is what helps us get to the progression examples

I dont want to just see the progression I am interested in the thought process behind it.

Dont worry eggs keep it coming And I thank you for sharing didnt even read it yet because I had to respond to sjonathon first

Diverse,

while I can understand what you're saying and attempting to do, are you saying that, as a teacher, you can't do both?  Apply the theory while posting the progression?

Just asking.