How much theory??

[4hisglory]

In your opinion, how much theory do you think all musicians need to know??

[clcmusicchic]

In my opinion, I think that we as musicians should know as much theory as possible. You can never know too much because knowledge in music is unlimited, especially gospel music. There are a lot of genres that we can learn from and also get the theory behind them!!!

[jt3n1]

I am currently learning the theory behind lots of different people and styles so that for example, if you want to play a Donnie McClurkin song, I will play it his way, and if I want to play a Hezekiah Walker song, I will play it his way. They sound very different, so knowing why they sound different will be helpful in playing them differently. I say learn all you can as well!

[bishopcole]

In your opinion, how much theory do you think all musicians need to know??

As much as possible, cause it will save you from a night of TOTAL EMBARRASMENT!!!  Bishop Cole

[diverse379]

I am not with yall

Here is my official answer followed by explanation

an]Theory is a means to an end not a means in itself and the theory has always followed the doing

so do first and analyze second

the theory should always be secondary to the pursuit of excellent technique facility and accuracy on your instrument

then you can apply the theory in creative ways[/b].

d only because I know more theory then most but have relied on that theory at the expense of really shedding on the physical aspects of playing so I have learned how to read a lead shieet I know how to do poyrhythyms I can analyze any chord progression and learn to duplicate it in other situations and yes i can teach well

and impart the information

but you cannot learn theory at the expesnse of real practice and tackling the mundae aspects of taking your chords around the cycle cromatically step wise and in major and minor thirds

and getting them there with a quickness like 100 beats per minute each per qaurter note

trhat is my grind right now


because I have seen people who practice this way and they run circles around some of the strongest theory cats I know

even though these theory people (masters of musc bachelors of music0
CAN PLAY well I have seen the people who have really taken the time to learn the music from a heart and ear concept not a brain thing

I play ok some say well I can come up with some good stuff but the best sturff is the stuff I learn by ear not by brain

So here is my official answer


Theory is a means to an end not a means in itself and the theory has always followed the doing

so do first and analyze second

the theory should always be secondary to the pursuit of excellent technique facility and accuracy on your instrument

then you can apply the theory in creative ways.

when you learn theory in school it is predicated by hours of time spent on developing the physical attributes nessesary to apply the concept

so if you are not going to school and you are told to learn theory like it is going to make you special

i dont think we should put this idea out there

Katrina
Nate mcnair
melvin crispel
Butch heyward


I dont want to put katrinas name on blast so I wont put her last name out there

but she got signed to a major label recently and you hear her work on the radiio as we speak

she used to earn 900 per sunday at her church

and new very little theory but she could apply all the concepts you could theorize and then do stuff that the theory books have not learned yet


The old piano players and musicians learned from listening

I am advocating training this first and theory later because you will be far more creative



now on the other side for people like me who didnt have access to a teacher theory was a way i was able to survive as a minister of music who only knew two songs when I got my first church position.

But i honestly feel if i used my ear first i would be further along

theory is broken into too many components to rely on it to give you everything you need

lets look at a list of theory concepts

basic harmony
cadences minor and major
chords scales modes appegios
improvisation
rhythym
eartraining****
advanced improvisation counter point playing outside the key etc
technique
advanced harmony
sight reading
modality
modes in harmonic movement
linear harmony
2,3,4 part harmony



Out of all these things if you had the basic harmony learned
and focused on eartraining
and technique and learned your repoirtore from records

I believe you would be further along then someone else who tackled everything and didnt focus on technique

technique takes hours to develop and it requires a lot of work and patience

all that other stuff cant replace it

and remember in any college music course the eartrainig moves alongside the theroy classes so even they realize how important eartrainig is

[T-Block]

In your opinion, how much theory do you think all musicians need to know??

In my opinion, every musician should know the following:

1. All your notes
2. All major and minor scales, and maybe the blues scale in every key
3. All your basic chords in every key

Of course, stuff like scale degrees, finger numbers, progressions etc. will all be encompassed or stem from those, but those are the big 3 in my opinion.  You don't have to know a whole lot of theory to play well, it is just good to have an intelligent way of expressing to others what you are doing, not just "play this right here, then run this right here...."  Unh Unh, not professional at all!!!

[diverse379]

Thanks T-block that was what I was tryingto say

that knowing those things will help you to digest any other thing you may play and you can understand when people are communicating to you

And then you can learn as you go more advanced concepts

but dont sacrifice shedding for theory like i did
The theory must go hand in hand with the practice

now I am playing catch up

[T-Block]

now I am playing catch up

Me too man.  I be hearing cats do some absolutely amazing stuff, and I'm like "Whoa, where did u learn that? I need to get on my grind for real!"  But then again, you can look at it like this too, even though u feel like u playing catch up, you are way more advanced than a lot of people.  And it's those people who are also playing catch up to you.

[diverse379]

stop it already pick a side

yin or yang

black or white

right or wrong

theory or ear

LOL


You alright man...

for real hopefully one day we willcross paths

[T-Block]

You too funny D, I look forward to that day if our paths cross.

stop it already pick a side

LOL!!!!  I can't help it, I'm stuck in the middle!!!

[theunit]

im thinking for a horn player its good to know theroy, but you need a very good ear...cm7 is still cm7 anyway you  look at it but for horn players you need to be able to play different styles over any chord changes...example..polka,jazz, blues, gospel ,rock,,ect ect know your music and styles and you will be playing with the angels

[rjthakid]

I did a post about a guy I met in a guitar center.  He said he was gifted to play.  I told him I'm beginning and I'm practicing my scales, progressions, etc.  When I mentioned a "7-3-6-2-5-1" he said: "I don't even know what that is" 

    

And homeboy was SICK!!!  I'd mention a song off the top of my head, and tell him what key to play it in and he'd play it INSTANTLY.  Then he'd say: "Or I could play it like this" then he'd play it totally different and it sounded TIGHT.

I said all that to say this.......Imagine how good he'd be if he knew the theory behind what he was playing? 

Don't kill yourself with theory.  The short answer to the question in this thread is:
Learn enough that you can know the What, When, and Why aspects of playing

[jt3n1]

Diverse, I see you are not a strong believer in theory even though you know it. I just graduated with a music degree from college three months ago, and you know what? You are right, we did theory and we did ear training, but it was ALL from the angle of Classical music. You know why? The college professors say things like gospel music is not real music because it is just improv. But you know what else? They have the luxury of thinking like this and teaching like this because the people that are best at gospel music, take no pride or concern about the music as a whole. They take what they can for themselves and let others get in where they can. Classical music is about prepetuation of an musical art form. Gospel music right now is about survival of the fittest. Sure, I can play, but what about when I am gone? What about those that come after me? What about those that are coming up with me? If we call ourselves musicians, then we should take the time and effort to master ALL areas of musicianship. That includes the ear,(perceiving) the hands,(practicing) and the theory(knowing and understanding). I sat in theory classes frustrated that they would not discuss theoretical concepts as they refer to gospel music(or any other kind of music for that matter) and it never happened. Probably never will as long as The best musicians in gospel want to keep the best kept secret to themselves. You can go anywhere and learn classical, because teachers everywhere learned its theory and it performance practices. Well people are fighting for gospel teachers because no one has set the standard, and pretty much refuse to because a lot of them can't explain it themselves. College Academia laughs at our type of music and frankly it is sad to see us turn a deaf ear towards such abuse. Jazz IS taught in colleges and has theory, and guess what? They are praised for their creative outputs of music. They are creative because they learned how to be. Gospel is no different, and it has a theory and it is even more creative than Jazz!!! Since no one else is taking the burden upon themselves to better all gospel musicians, and not just themselves, then I am doing by writing a book on gospel music theory. I started it about 6 months ago. It is not yet finished, because it is a big subject, and since I am pretty much doing it by myself. Theory is about making music history come alive. Aside from that, it really does make you a better player. When I get a chance to post a clip, I will do so, because I think hearing me play will allow you to understand I am not just a beginner out here just talking about theory, I play it. It works and I want all others to have the benefit of sound instruction at their disposal to be as creative as they want.

[sjonathan02]

Diverse, I see you are not a strong believer in theory even though you know it. I just graduated with a music degree from college three months ago, and you know what? You are right, we did theory and we did ear training, but it was ALL from the angle of Classical music. You know why? The college professors say things like gospel music is not real music because it is just improv. But you know what else? They have the luxury of thinking like this and teaching like this because the people that are best at gospel music, take no pride or concern about the music as a whole. They take what they can for themselves and let others get in where they can. Classical music is about prepetuation of an musical art form. Gospel music right now is about survival of the fittest. Sure, I can play, but what about when I am gone? What about those that come after me? What about those that are coming up with me? If we call ourselves musicians, then we should take the time and effort to master ALL areas of musicianship. That includes the ear,(perceiving) the hands,(practicing) and the theory(knowing and understanding). I sat in theory classes frustrated that they would not discuss theoretical concepts as they refer to gospel music(or any other kind of music for that matter) and it never happened. Probably never will as long as The best musicians in gospel want to keep the best kept secret to themselves. You can go anywhere and learn classical, because teachers everywhere learned its theory and it performance practices. Well people are fighting for gospel teachers because no one has set the standard, and pretty much refuse to because a lot of them can't explain it themselves. College Academia laughs at our type of music and frankly it is sad to see us turn a deaf ear towards such abuse. Jazz IS taught in colleges and has theory, and guess what? They are praised for their creative outputs of music. They are creative because they learned how to be. Gospel is no different, and it has a theory and it is even more creative than Jazz!!! Since no one else is taking the burden upon themselves to better all gospel musicians, and not just themselves, then I am doing by writing a book on gospel music theory. I started it about 6 months ago. It is not yet finished, because it is a big subject, and since I am pretty much doing it by myself. Theory is about making music history come alive. Aside from that, it really does make you a better player. When I get a chance to post a clip, I will do so, because I think hearing me play will allow you to understand I am not just a beginner out here just talking about theory, I play it. It works and I want all others to have the benefit of sound instruction at their disposal to be as creative as they want.

May God bless the work of your hands as you endeavor to reach and teach His people. I'm believing the Lord right now for an increase in your harvest as you sow into the hearts and minds of future gospel musicians and artists.

It is in the mighty, matchless name of Jesus Christ that I pray and say, Amen.



I just wanted to pray for you, sister because it seems that you have found your purpose, and that's a blessing.



In addition while I can see both sides of this issue, I can say that for me, the increasing of my theoretical knowledge has helped me increase my ear. Someone posted in a thread a website that can help with ear training, and I can say that because of my knowledge of theory, I am better at knowing the chords that this ear training website is playing. As a matter of fact, my score has imporved dramatically in the last couple of days.

I think there can be a balance.

[clcmusicchic]

I didn't say to just study theory. I said that it is good to know so that you can know what people did and you can explain it to someone else!!! It is also good to know for yourself.  Again some people think that they know theory and they really don't!!! Also, that is why people are frustrated. I look at some of the responses people have given to other people about theory and some of these new things that people come up with and it doesn't make sense!!! They can't even back up what they said and they end up contradicting theirself later in the post!!! I don't even respond to it. Also, I said that it is good to know both, not just one or the other. What if you played for a church that goes based off of reading music and they wanted you to arrange something for the choir or whomever, you would need to know your theory!!! I know folks who can play really well and they know their theory!!! You can't rely on your ear for everything!!! Plus, people respect you more when you know what you are talking about. If you think that I just sit and analyze chords all day, then you are wrong. I learn the phat chords and runs that people use and I learn why it makes sense so that I can show others!!! Plus, I don't have time to press the rewind button, especially if I have one day to learn it. If there are new chords and runs I learn them. I try to learn as many chords and genres as possible!! I am also creative!!! I learn other instances where to put chords and runs!! You can sit and try to figure out until 6 the next morning on how to play a song!! While others, who know theory, it would take less time because they know what's going to happen next.

[diverse379]

I didnt even see that post from jt3n1 thank you jonathon for potsing that again

I was moved by what you wrote JT

I agree with you on that side of the fence i hadnt really considered the proliferation of Gospel Because I took for granted that God would make sure gospel music stayed cutting edge like it always has

but I empthize with what you are saying we do not communicate a real school of knowledge.

that encourage the perpetuation of.

and what you are saying is noble indeed.

and every point that is made is relevant absoultely

I wouldnt have  it any other way.

My position was based not on what i felt was untrue about what was written by miss church music
but moreover by what   was in what she wrote that concerned me


I got mislead to believe ( by my own belief no one elses ) that if I master theory i would be able to understand what everybody was doing in this gospel thing we do

And I am at a point now that I can under stand it but my technique is so poor I cnnot execute the things I am hearing so I find myself back to square one shedding my chords around the cycle of 5ths

I just didnt want anyone to fall into that trap

just to keep it in balance

[jt3n1]

Hey thanks Sjonanthan for your prayers!! They are much needed!!! Diverse, I think we are trying to achieve the same goal, but we are trying to get there in two different ways!! I just want everybody to get it!!

[clcmusicchic]

I am not understanding diverse379 what you are saying about me. Plus what did I say that offended you? I was not trying to offend by all means. If I did then I am sorry!! I am just saying that it is good to know both!! By the way my name is clcmusicchic

[diverse379]

no no miss churchmusic you did not offend me at all

no apologies necsessary We are all sharing

when I read your post the first time I guess I didnt want someone to read it and get the idea that if they just learn some theory they can go out and becaome players

I know that is not your intention and my concern was probably unwarranted

I know that people will take a statement and run with it.  So I wanted to be sure that anybody reading this post would know that regardless of what they know or dont know that practice practice practice is word of the day every day for a musician

[PapaRooskie]

Ok...here is the real deal.

Music reading is important, but being able to sight read on the spot is not unless u are a session musician

KNOW CHORDS AND CHORD SYMBOLS- if you know this then it makes everything easier.  You can go throw a peice of music and pick out chords and figure out what u'll play over them.  This also allows for some of your on creativity

RHYTHMS- if your playing with a band then this is a big one, in my short 17 years of life this is the biggest problem i've noticed with players.  They have no rhythmic varity.

But really, unless youre one of those geniouses who was blessed with being able to play by ear, THE MORE YOU KNOW THE BETTER