Musicians...SAVED or NOT SAVED

[Torch7]

Wow, laj528

We are posted almost simultaneously... Yes I think this post is gonna enter unchartered water shortly.

[jeremyr]

Then there is what is called "Praying in Tongues"  Paul, says in this instance the believer is speaking mysteries to God.  It is the believers spirit, praying to God, and edifying the believer.  The believer is making utterances, even they don't understand.

can you shoot me a scripture on this?  I like having references   I know paul speaks of praying in tongues, but i'd like to read the context in which he's speaking.

[Torch7]

No doubt Jeremyr... give me a sec...

[laj528]

If I may.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Cor 14:2


Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:26

[Torch7]

laj528 on point again... Sorry for the delay... preppin' dinner for the younguns, in mommies absence. 

Here is what I was posting.

1 Cor. 12:10;30
Paul is breaking down the diversities of Gifts, but one Spirit. This type of tongue is not given to every believer; needs interpretation

1 Cor. 14:2 Paul begins to speak of another type of tongue, that cannot be interpreted.  He refers to it as an unknown tongue.

1 Cor. 14:2-4
V. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 

Since he is speaking to God, this is prayer... that edifies. (1 Cor. 14:4)

The other type is speaking in other languages which we see on the day of pentecost.  Acts 2:4. (see also paul in 1 Cor. speaks of "I speak in tongues of "Men" and "angels"

Also note, that tongues are a sign for unbelievers

[jeremyr]

Also note, that tongues are a sign for unbelievers

1Cor 11:27
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

I found that one pretty interesting.

1Cor 11:33

     As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


I bring up 1 Cor 11:33 to prove a point. I'm going to say it... yall ready??  Just because it's in the bible doesn't mean that it's right.  There's Ceremonial law and then there's Celestial law.  Ceremonial being what the people made up themselves and then the laws that God gave the people (i.e the 10 commandments).  This one up above seems as though this was pauls own personal take of the service. 

I kind of wish i had the fit to speak in tongues in prayer.  Well we can't have it all.

[Torch7]

I kind of wish i had the fit to speak in tongues in prayer.  Well we can't have it all.

Is that supposed to read the gift, I believe that every believer can have access to praying in tongues (Praying in the Spirit)....  Begin to pray for it if you would like to be able to utilize such a powerful blessing.

Ephesians 6:18, and Jude 1:20

[ptidwell]

I see that this thread is alive and well.
So I have had to do some reading since my last post. Seems to be somewhat controversial with the various opinions.Like mr.dj I was in the church as a youth watching and waiting for the opportunity to play, but somehow even at 7 I knew to have a reverence for God, and not to play with God, and that it was serious, although I didn't understand the plan of salvation at that time, I was being taught the fear of the Lord.
Now this thread started out by cordney asking the question and I quote "I wanted to know how others felt about musicians playing and not being saved"
What i am hearing is that some of you were playing prior to salvation and hopefully you came into the fold in the process.Now 1 John 4:1 says: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
This subject is not as complecated as it seems. Try the spirit by the spirit, motives, agenda's, hang ups and habits can be spiritually discerned. Unfortunatelythat is a gift that has left the church. I live in LA there are so many phenominal players coming through looking for a check, paying a musician is not the problem. However, some of these people show up for rehearsals play for services, yet while the word goes forth they got their eye on some girl or some guy because we have these talented people who have same sex preferences sometimes they can be found outside. This type of individual is not thinking about salvation, although for spiritual correctness they will claim it. I believe this is what the original post was addressing. Someone has to take responsibility and stand up on these issues 1 Peter 4:17 speaks loud and clear "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 

We call it shedin' but it use to be the music ministry, but now it's been reduced to skillful playing by talented compromising people. If we the body of Christ continue to to allow such compromise we will be the one that will be saying Lord, Lord, I played skillfully in your name! he will say depart from me you workers of iniquity I know you not. My apologies to anyone who is offended by my opinion, but as a musician who has played in church over the last 27 years and more so as a Pastor over the last 9, I refuse to pay some because the are talented, gifted, or the best at what they do, not when people souls are at stake. Down through the years I have seen homosexuals leading Praise & Worship flaming, I have seen them playing the keys off the piano. I have seen chior directors getting ladies, in the chior, yes ladies more than one pregnant. So forgive my harshness, but God is going to hold someone accountable. Now let me conclude with this, We as musicians need to understand this thing we call "Worship" and the role we play in the presentation of it first to God and secondly before God's people, it needs to be affective not impressive, it needs to be done with skill but also with power(and I not talking watts) one word comes to mind anointed. Hopefully we can agree that someone can be gifted, talented and skillful and lack the anointing. And the yoke is destroyed and the burden removed because of the anointing. So lets focus on the purpose of what we are doing. Would I invite an unsaved person to play in our ministry, certainly, as point of motivation as a jester of love and fellowship, but ever week, on a regular basis? That individual and I will have some serious diaglog together before that could happen. I will do my best to help that person understand that playing music is as much of a ministry as me preaching. That a lifestyle and the anointing earmark your effectiveness, this will take your gift to a new dimension of soul and spirit one that will cut the calleous foreskin from the heart of God's people that will prepare them to receive the engrafted word of God.
 Now if they are will to take the jorney into this dimenstion of soul and spirit, I am prepared to usher them there through the coridors of time.
God can't use your best if He doesn't have all of you. Why do we call it "Worship Service"? I read somewhere, perhaps it was in the bible, that "true worshippers must worship Him in Spirit and in truth".
Maybe we should be honest and call it "Anybody Can Come And Play Shedin' Service"

[cordney]

 

Now if they are will to take the jorney into this dimenstion of soul and spirit, I am prepared to usher them there through the coridors of time.

Well put!!!

[Furious Styles]

Gospaul,

Everything you said was on point.. I wanted to redirect the thread to when some posted about the holy spirit. One person mentioned justification and santification. Justification comes from the word justice. God got justice for the sins of humanity through Jesus dying on the cross. We became just with this process which equals the word juststification.

Sanctification comes from the root word Sanctuary. WE have heard the song Lord Prepare me to be a sanctuary. Well this my friends is what Sancticfication really is. God coming in on the inside to dwell in sanctuaries not made with hands!!! The holy spirit is to be that in dwelling prescence in addition to being the sign to unbelievers that God exist.

As the Pastors have stated the gift and the annointing is totally different. When a person is just under their gift many different spirits can go out. The same thing is at stake when a believer may be in a different place spiritually. Wickedness is what allows most pastors to allow the types of characters that Gospaul mentioned to still be apart these ministries. If the pastor is freaking to then how can he say anything to the musicians?

He ain't gonna mess with that offering either so theres another issue. The love of money is the root of all evil

[Billy Low]

The evidence of speaking in tongues.

Is there any evidence/reference of Christ speaking in tounges? Was he not filled at the time of his baptism?

What about all of those baptised by JTB prior to Christ? Were they not filled as well?

Not trying to be cynical or arguementative, but it's my belief that there is a confusion between being filled with the Holy Spirit and one of the manifestations thereof. The Holy Spirit can manifest in many ways, can it not?

Just as there is confusion of this matter, there is confusion between receiving salvation, sanctification and the annointing.

NOTE: this posting utilizing this quote is not intended just for the poster quoted, but to the forum as a whole. 

[Torch7]

Good point Billy Low.  I just wanted to add for Theological sake, that those who were baptised by JTB, were not filled, with the Spirit.  Prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, the redemptive work had not been done.  The prior baptism was for an outward professionof repentance.  Sin had not yet been forgiven though.

Furious, is also right.

We are Justified through Christs death, and we are Saved, through sanctification(set apart for God's purpose), or made holy. The greek means to make holy.  The word declares, "Be ye Holy for I am Holy" Another word we use is "SAINT" which means "HOLY ONES"  We should cease to say as believers/saints, "I ain't trying to be all holy", well if your a born again believer, your salvation fixed that "God can't dwell in any place that is not HOLY"... Sorry I got side tracked... 

Sanctuary is the place where God dwells, and he will use.  I know this will cause debate, but It's hard for me to believe God will use an "unholy" vessel, when there are willing "holy" vessels.  I know the argument is coming well he used a Donkey, or he uses who he will.  It will be hard for you to find this occuring in the dispensation of the new covenant.  Prior to the new covenant, God never indwelled humans, he would come upon them, influence them, be with them, but never set up residence inside of them.

A writer once wrote, SANCTIFICATION is applied, JUSTIFICATION.  Sanctification is a process, that the believer walks out, until the day of redemption.

[jeremyr]

so this is just me thinking out loud, but how are you suppose to pray to God in a language you don't know?  I mean you do'tknow what you're saying, so how exactly does that work?  For all you know you could be cursing God.... someone educate me on this.

[Torch7]

The concept Jeremyr...

The concept is you have a born again, spirit, born in the image of God, and incapable of sinning, dwelling on the inside. Your spirit fellowships with the Spirit of God resident on the inside.
So you don't have to worry about sinning, against God while praying in the Spirit.  The Soul of a man might do it, but the Spirit cannot.

[jeremyr]

The concept Jeremyr...

The concept is you have a born again, spirit, born in the image of God, and incapable of sinning, dwelling on the inside. Your spirit fellowships with the Spirit of God resident on the inside.
So you don't have to worry about sinning, against God while praying in the Spirit.  The Soul of a man might do it, but the Spirit cannot.

I know i'm going off topic from the original topic, but this is something i've always wondered about.

So did this whole speaking in tongues thing start with paul when he told the people in 1 Corinthians?

i'm not talking about speaking in a different language, but speaking in a language you cannot understand?  Anyone ever think that he may have been using a metaphor >

[Torch7]

It doesn't sound much like a metaphor.  He was specifically talking against the Corinthians placing too high a priority on the gift,
thus the reason he wrote, on the gift, describing what it was, and saying he would much rather they edify the Church then themselves
and if they didn't have LOVE, then why bother.... ofcourse that was a loose paraphrase.

[Billy Low]

Sorry, but this is a long reply...

Good point Billy Low.  I just wanted to add for Theological sake, that those who were baptised by JTB, were not filled, with the Spirit.  Prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, the redemptive work had not been done.  The prior baptism was for an outward professionof repentance.  Sin had not yet been forgiven though.

Even though the work had not been complete those who followed John were believers in the fact that Christ was and is the Messiah as promised in earlier prophesy. Does the word not tell use that confession with the mouth that Christ is Lord brings about salvation? 

We are Justified through Christs death, and we are Saved, through sanctification(set apart for God's purpose), or made holy. The greek means to make holy.  The word declares, "Be ye Holy for I am Holy" Another word we use is "SAINT" which means "HOLY ONES"  We should cease to say as believers/saints, "I ain't trying to be all holy", well if your a born again believer, your salvation fixed that "God can't dwell in any place that is not HOLY"... Sorry I got side tracked... 

Sanctuary is the place where God dwells, and he will use.  I know this will cause debate, but It's hard for me to believe God will use an "unholy" vessel, when there are willing "holy" vessels.  I know the argument is coming well he used a Donkey, or he uses who he will.  It will be hard for you to find this occuring in the dispensation of the new covenant.  Prior to the new covenant, God never indwelled humans, he would come upon them, influence them, be with them, but never set up residence inside of them.

A writer once wrote, SANCTIFICATION is applied, JUSTIFICATION.  Sanctification is a process, that the believer walks out, until the day of redemption.

I do understand your point, as well as the points of others. This is my $0.02...

Yes there should be order within the House, however, we must be careful as whom man deems to be saved, holy, sanctified, annointed. Man has no Heaven nor Hell to place the souls of others. The shepard must truley know his sheep. The shepard must also not cast his own judgement, but do as is directed by the Spirit directs in dealing with the sheep. 

Often times we cast labels without understanding the contents of the vessel. We also tend to ignore that which is blatently obvious because that outer label, not the content, may fit in to catagories pre selected by man. Even the sanctified and annointed can fall short of perfection. One that may not yet be sanctified may be in the process of cleanseing.

On this topic as a whole, I would like to point out LUKE 18:10-14

 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
 

[Torch7]

Even though the work had not been complete those who followed John were believers in the fact that Christ was and is the Messiah as promised in earlier prophesy. Does the word not tell use that confession with the mouth that Christ is Lord brings about salvation? 

Not to prolong the discussion, but we are only saved, by grace through faith, in Jesus Crucifixion.  It is his blood that, brings salvation.  We confess only what we know in our hearts to be true, and saying "Jesus is Lord" is not a confession, b/c even demons tremble at the name.  When the scriptures speak of this confession, it means our heart is aligned and we think Jesus, is LORD (Boss) and are willing to do what he says.  Lest I get of topic.  The Spirit of God was not given until, the day of pentecost.  John's baptism was not a confession that Jesus was Lord, but that they should repent because the Kingdom of God was approaching.  Even John asked when imprisoned, "Are you the one, or should I seek another."

------
I never refuted, that one may be in the sanctification process, I never said, we don't fall short of perfection.  That is the very reason that I wrote what I wrote.  I never questioned anyones salvation.  I am talking about ministering before the body.

My point is if you can't portray Christianity in a positive light, then you shouldn't minister.  If a white man walked into your office, with highwater paints, and suspenders, Coke Bottle glasses, he weighed 125lbs, and had an asthma inhaler in his hand, and said he was the toughest Gang banger in the roughest hood in your city... You would look confounded.  Is he incapable of becoming a gangster?  Could he currently be a Gangster?  Would you pass judgement based upon what you see?

Or how about a Black Man, saying he was a KKK member?

You would probably demand to see some proof, or laugh them off, as crazy.  If either one of them went to that specific group of people they claimed to be,  and said, show me some respect I am one of you, they would not believe them either. 

I know this post probably comes across as self righteous, but that is far from the intent.  As a minister of the Gospel, one of my charges is to challenge Christians, to pursue a closer walk with God.

[Billy Low]

Hey Torch7,

I hope I'm not coming off too confrontational, because that is truely not my intent! If I offend any who read my post, I ask humbly for your forgiveness I say all things in this text to my bretheren with the love of my Father.

I see that in some areas of this discussion we are actually agreeing, how ever we won't be forded the oppertunity to come to this on this forum (it would be too overwhelming). Yes I agree that we need to posses the qualities of whom we follow, both inwardly and outwardly. In doing so, this is the ultimate expression of worship one can exibit.

My largest concern was that many are judged to be worthy or unworthy by man unjustly. There are many warnings and examples of this in the Bible, which I would have loved to go in depth, but wont! People may say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. Not always so. It may do the former and have the tail of a beaver that one does not see immediately, thus making it a platypus!

For sake of brevity, I think that moving forward, if we all followed the following text, this discussion would not be needed.

1 Cor. 27-34

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

 31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

 32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

 33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

 34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


 

[Torch7]

Billy Low,

There is no offense taken, no need to apologize.  I do think we may be caught up in semantics, I wholeheartedly see your point, about being "worthy" or "unworthy".  However the initial question I feel, gave us a dividing line. So I wasn't speaking in regard to HOLY, UNHOLY, being SAVED = HOLY; NOT SAVED = UNHOLY.  I hope this clarifies my position.

The initial question did not leave room for speculation, in my mind, but if I understood it correctly, my assumption, like I stated earlier, is that the person(s) in question are unapologetically not Christian.  Who enjoy playing in Church, yet have not yielded their lives to Christ.  To those I would say, No you cannot play with my musicians. 

Professing Christians, is a whole nother story. (Which I stated in an earlier post, I didn't much wanna touch.)  But at Our Church, and if I were ever given the responsibility to Pastor a church.  There is a selectivity to the musicians & praise singers.  We've moved away from the shore and drifted with this discussion, but if we look in relation to the initial post, then maybe we can tie all these things together.  I am a firm believer that my what is done in secret will eventually be brought to the light, so one can only, hide true motives for so long, and once it came to the light, I would ask the person in position to repent, or lose position.  If it sounds harsh I apologize, but co-signing with someones sin makes me a partaker.