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Author Topic: Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?  (Read 10197 times)

Offline playhear

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2005, 10:05:47 AM »
I have Hartwell's DVD. I found the DVD be a excellent for learning how to add more color to your voicings, particularly if you go beyond the DVD and look at the chords he provides on the accompanying CD. However, I was a little disappointed that he doesn't explain the theory behind the chords. For example, I want to know if a chord is a B7/E or a B7alt or whatever. I'm already familiar with knowing how to add flavor to a chord by ear. However, I'm more interested learning the theory behind why the flavor sounds good. Hartwell's DVD explains the "how" but not the "why". Maybe I'm missing something fromt he DVD. Perhaps someone else can chime in here.

Offline whitemichael

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2005, 12:22:41 PM »
Bro. Griggs is actually selling Bro. Hartwells video as the gospel keys generation X video.  He terms Bro. Hartwell as Mr. H.  Also I will say that he is offering a decent price to buy a combination of all of his videos.  I just ordered the entire set of videos...202..101...300...and generation x series.  I gave the 101 series to a little girl who always wanted me to teach her to play...but I found the other videos to be very good...some of the tricks I already knew but still the videos were well worth the price....all four for 151...after shipping and handling...
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Offline playhear

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2005, 12:53:40 PM »
Quote from: playhear
I have Hartwell's DVD. I found the DVD be a excellent for learning how to add more color to your voicings, particularly if you go beyond the DVD and look at the chords he provides on the accompanying CD. However, I was a little disappointed that he doesn't explain the theory behind the chords. For example, I want to know if a chord is a B7/E or a B7alt or whatever. I'm already familiar with knowing how to add flavor to a chord by ear. However, I'm more interested learning the theory behind why the flavor sounds good. Hartwell's DVD explains the "how" but not the "why". Maybe I'm missing something fromt he DVD. Perhaps someone else can chime in here.


I should add that I thoroughly understand theory, including the Circle of 5ths. However, I am interested in the theory behind Hartwell's chords specifically. Hartwell didn't have to provide a detailed explanation. A simple naming of the chords (e.g., "Bb7" or "Gm7alt" or whatever) would have sufficed. I get the feeling that maybe Hartwell doesn't even have names for the chords. He has left it up to the viewer to figure it out. That's OK, I can guess the chords. Although, I'd rather like to know what Hartwell considers the chords to be.

Offline bigtforreal

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2005, 01:02:09 PM »
So it sounds like I shouldn't even touch Jamal's DVD until I understand Gospelkeys 101?  Is that a good assessment? Because I'm now learning theorey taking classical lessons.  

I'm only asking because I don't have the necessary funds to get all or even 2 dvds now..

I would rather learn the urban/jazz/r&B gospel sound, than the traditional.  

So my question is..if someone doesn't know anything, or maybe been learning for a couple of months, would a beginner be alright with jamal's dvd?

Trust me, if i had the money, i'll get it all.

Or is their any other instructional dvds out there?
Of course, God gets the glory

Offline playhear

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2005, 01:47:55 PM »
Quote from: bigtforreal
So it sounds like I shouldn't even touch Jamal's DVD until I understand Gospelkeys 101?  Is that a good assessment? Because I'm now learning theorey taking classical lessons.  

I'm only asking because I don't have the necessary funds to get all or even 2 dvds now..

I would rather learn the urban/jazz/r&B gospel sound, than the traditional.  

So my question is..if someone doesn't know anything, or maybe been learning for a couple of months, would a beginner be alright with jamal's dvd?

Trust me, if i had the money, i'll get it all.

Or is their any other instructional dvds out there?


If you want to understand theory, in my opnion, you should not start with Hartwell's DVD because his DVD skips over basic theory. However, if you want that urban/jazz/R&B sound, you're going to want to check out Hartwell's DVD. You can have that sound you're trying to achieve without understanding theory; plenty of good musicians are like that. If you want to understand the fundamentals, and be able to come up with your own chord alterations, you should understand theory. Gospelkeys 101 provides teachings on fundamental theory, while Harwell's DVD does not. Hartwell says his DVD is for beginners, but if you don't understand at least some theory, you won't understand why the chords Hartwell lays out for you sound so tight. You'll just be mimicking.

Offline bigtforreal

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Please give opinions if u can..very helpful
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2005, 10:10:50 PM »
thanks...i appreciate the insight, anymore opinions is helpful..
Of course, God gets the glory

Offline NoelII

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2005, 11:28:09 PM »
Is no one at all bothered by Hartwell's misnaming chords? I'm not just talking about his misspelling them (e.g. there is no Ab in a C#maj7 chord, that's a misspelling). Worse is to play a Bb-9 chord and call it a C#maj7 and not seem to know the difference. The root/bass note defines the chord.  Some of the other stuff like crossing fingers when there is no need also bothered me. The chords were cool and the voicings were very cool but listening to him speak was tedious.
Psalm 33:3 "Sing unto Him a new song, play skillfully with a loud noise."

Offline playhear

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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2005, 09:21:27 AM »
Quote from: NoelII
Is no one at all bothered by Hartwell's misnaming chords? I'm not just talking about his misspelling them (e.g. there is no Ab in a C#maj7 chord, that's a misspelling). Worse is to play a Bb-9 chord and call it a C#maj7 and not seem to know the difference. The root/bass note defines the chord.  Some of the other stuff like crossing fingers when there is no need also bothered me. The chords were cool and the voicings were very cool but listening to him speak was tedious.


The left most note (or bass) does not necessarily define the chord. For example for an F7, you could play an A (the 3rd) or an Eb (the minor 7th) in the bass, and the chord will still sound fine. I think Hartwell may be doing such changes to the bass sometimes. The changes make applying theory to his chords difficult. So, I want him to tell me what he considers the names of the chords to be. I think he alters a lot of the chords. I would rather that he explicitly says so. In the end, given the sound of his playing, theory must conform to his playing and not the other way around.

Generally, I'm really trying to put theory to his chords because they sound great and there's no doubt he's a superior player. So, don't get me wrong. I'm sincerely trying to give him his props. I just don't want to be mimicking him. I want to understand so that I can make my own similar alterations to chords.

Offline NoelII

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2005, 04:12:25 PM »
Actually, in the example I gave it does and does in most cases.  An F7 chord with a note from the chord in the bass would have to be defined as such, e.g. F7/A.  Theory doesn't conform to playing it merely explains it. My problem with the video is that most of what he says is incorrect. The playing's great but you'd do better to get a video by a real jazz musician and apply it to the music you're doing (or at least by someone who can articulate things better). My other problem with it is that as a teacher you have to be consistent in your demonstrations and not explain one thing slowly and then play something different when you play it at speed.  I let another musician check it out and they said it gave them a headache. I told her to watch his hands and the keyboard examples and not listen to what he says and she'd be fine.
Any, as with anything we need to "Eat the hay and spit out the sticks".
Psalm 33:3 "Sing unto Him a new song, play skillfully with a loud noise."

Offline bigtforreal

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2005, 04:24:05 PM »
i don't know what you guys are explaining...Jamal's video can't be for true beginners.
Of course, God gets the glory

Offline NoelII

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2005, 04:42:37 PM »
It isn't. Though I haven't checked them out U might want 2 try the hear and play videos.
Psalm 33:3 "Sing unto Him a new song, play skillfully with a loud noise."

Offline playhear

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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2005, 09:53:23 PM »
Quote from: NoelII
Actually, in the example I gave it does and does in most cases.  An F7 chord with a note from the chord in the bass would have to be defined as such, e.g. F7/A.  Theory doesn't conform to playing it merely explains it. My problem with the video is that most of what he says is incorrect. The playing's great but you'd do better to get a video by a real jazz musician and apply it to the music you're doing (or at least by someone who can articulate things better). My other problem with it is that as a teacher you have to be consistent in your demonstrations and not explain one thing slowly and then play something different when you play it at speed.  I let another musician check it out and they said it gave them a headache. I told her to watch his hands and the keyboard examples and not listen to what he says and she'd be fine.
Any, as with anything we need to "Eat the hay and spit out the sticks".


I agree. I pretty much had the same thoughts after studying the DVD. A frustrating part about the DVD is that it's making me get involved with this discussion, which is not helping my playing. I want to improve my theoretical understanding of voicings rather than share points and counterpoints about the DVD.

By the way, if somebody played an F7 as ACEbF, I could still identify the chord as F7, and that wouldn't be wrong per se, just not as accurate as F7/A. With Hartwell's DVD, there's so many alterations that I don't think somebody could look at the bass and expect to define the chord that way. I think that many times he's putting a note other than the tonic in the bass. Look at the pdf files on the bundled CD and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Offline InHisname26

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Griggs or Hartwell
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2005, 10:29:09 AM »
I would suggest the Hear and Play videos as well.  I just received mine and after one viewing it cleared so much of the confusion up for me.  I was actually able to play what he was teaching.  He also goes slowly and explains what he's doing very thoroughly.  I don't have Hartwell's DVD but I've seen a clip on his web sight and I have to say being a beginner I was pretty much lost.

Offline princeday

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Jamal Hartwell or Jermaine Griggs?
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2005, 03:08:56 AM »
Jamal's DVD is good. It's  just thgat he plays by feel instead of theory. To me (and Maybe Jamal TOO) theory is unnecessary. You don't haVE TO KNOW THE universal names for chords. I could just as easy name my notes 1 thru 12 instead of all the a,b,c stuff.


All in ALL
Theory
Who needs It?

the Prince

Offline playhear

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« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2005, 12:00:06 PM »
Quote from: princeday
Jamal's DVD is good. It's  just thgat he plays by feel instead of theory. To me (and Maybe Jamal TOO) theory is unnecessary. You don't haVE TO KNOW THE universal names for chords. I could just as easy name my notes 1 thru 12 instead of all the a,b,c stuff.

All in ALL
Theory
Who needs It?

the Prince


Prince,

Theory is necessary for many things, including composing, copyrighting, playing on other instruments more easily and sharing music with later generations. If Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and others hadn't written their stuff down, we'd have missed out on a huge part of that classical explosion in music history.

Theory is necessary if you really want to make money in music. Every student of music wants to learn from musicians who are tight on their instruments, right? I'm sure Jermaine Griggs can play exceptionally by ear. He's making money, however, because he can communicate his gift using theory.

Theory allows people who don't have a natural musical gift from God to enjoy the pleasures of making music and to train themselves to feel the music. Theory allows people with natural musical gifts, such as yourself, to communicate with others in a language everybody can understand.

Learning the current system of A, B, C, etc., is just as easy as naming the notes 1, 2, 3, etc., except simpler and less confusing. In your proposed system, what would you call the 3rd of Ab for example? Your system breaks down because communicating music requires multiple symbolic representations. Theory is not difficult to learn. You play be ear. Thus, if you were to learn theory, you, and especially you, would find yourself opened up to an exciting new world of creativity and potential.
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