LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Organ Room => Topic started by: sugeheights on August 14, 2007, 06:37:47 PM
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Hello I am new to this site and I love the organ. I dont play and I wish I could. However I love the sound of a b3/c3 with a leslie on a sunday morning. However it has come to my knowledge that a lot of pastors or music ministry are cheap with their musicians! I am in sacramento california and there are not a lot of churches willing to pay. The top pay for organists is maybe between 250-350 a sunday while the pastor is making $80,000-$200,000 a year with hardly any education and fake doctorate of divinity degrees! However the music ministry carries 80 percent of the church service right? I know of churches that are so stupid, that they pay money to 2 piano players. One plays the keyboard and one plays the piano. I am baptist by the way. How much is a good organist really worth? I went online to see the salaries presented by the american guild of organists which is http://www.agohq.org/profession/indexsalary.html. I understand that some churches cannot afford to pay but most of the older churches have money and they are cheap! And then they wonder why people dont come to their services any more. Who wants to hear mother wilson play that rag time style of piano for the youth choir on sunday morning? I wanna hear your opinion on this. What is the going rate of organists in your city? And how much money do you think a church should set aside for organists at churches? Get @ me!
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Welcome to the LGM family "sugeheights".....Be Blessed.
PianoWiz...
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Well man I am in Raleigh NC, myself and my friends bring in between $350-$500 each Sunday. Now there are some things that drive that. Contrary to belief larger churches don't always pay more. I played for a "MEGA CHURCH" and they wanted me to play for free while the pastor has a Plane and a Phantom a $450,000.00 car! I play for a medium established Baptist church and get $400.00 a Sunday. Be Blessed
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I hear what you are saying. But why do musicians get paid anyway? I too am an associate minister and musician. If the church I am a member of have a lot of musicians and I play sparingly and I enjoy that church and pastor's leadership, why go to a church that pays $200 or more a Sunday (and I know a couple of Churches in Chicago that pays $500) and don't enjoy worship service? I play for 2 churches. Sometimes 3. My home church every Sunday mornings and when the other church has evening services and my home church don't, I'm with them. Yes I get paid. But I don't play for money. I don't get paid every Sunday either. I go to church to worship GOD and praise him. Yes I have to attend 3 choir rehersals a week, but I do it for the Glory of GOD. Not to please man. But how do you define under or over paid musicians? I can throw some good chords together and play different styles. But I ask GOD to direct me. Am I worth more than I get paid? What if I injure my hands or get my left leg amputated, will that stop me from worshipping or praising GOD? We are getting so involved in entertaining and trying to be like the world at church and not evangilizing and bringing lost souls to Christ that the church is loosing it's true power. Please respond. I want to hear every ones point on this. GOD Bless you all!!!
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Welcome to the LGM family "Rev_G".....Stay Blessed.
PianoWiz...
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Thank you PianoWiz
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I think organists deserved to get paid more. They are the heart and soul of the church. Churches are still non profit businesses and I dont like the fact that pastor's are getting paid so much and the music ministry still suffers. THe music ministry is the MOST important ministry at the church!
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To answer your question. I think that organists are under paid because a vast majority of churches have a piano, keyboards, or a band to conduct the musical services. Its not where an organist is sub-talented, but where many church dont have an organ.
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THe music ministry is the MOST important ministry at the church!
omg YOU CANT BE SERIOUS!!! ?/?
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(http://www.manics.nl/images/quotes_yourblindbaby.jpg)
here we go again!
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REV G has it!!!!! www.wayofthemaster.com
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Praise the Lord to All;
Truly money is the root of all evil......It shouldn't be about the money, but worshiping God and Souls being saved....I know I'm in the military but I've matured in Christ to where I tell churches that they do not have to pay me to play....If they want to give me a token, than that's cool. But I want let them pay and if they did, I'll do my best to put it back in the collection plate. Some people might say that I'm missing out on my blessing, but if I need it at that time, I'll pray and ask God to help me with it. I owe God too much to be getting paid for playing. Just my thoughts.
God Bless.
ShawnG
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Praise the Lord to All;
Truly money is the root of all evil......
X
the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.
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X
the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.
I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo tired of people misquoting that particular piece of scripture. >:(
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I hear what you are saying. But why do musicians get paid anyway? I too am an associate minister and musician. If the church I am a member of have a lot of musicians and I play sparingly and I enjoy that church and pastor's leadership, why go to a church that pays $200 or more a Sunday (and I know a couple of Churches in Chicago that pays $500) and don't enjoy worship service? I play for 2 churches. Sometimes 3. My home church every Sunday mornings and when the other church has evening services and my home church don't, I'm with them. Yes I get paid. But I don't play for money. I don't get paid every Sunday either. I go to church to worship GOD and praise him. Yes I have to attend 3 choir rehersals a week, but I do it for the Glory of GOD. Not to please man. But how do you define under or over paid musicians? I can throw some good chords together and play different styles. But I ask GOD to direct me. Am I worth more than I get paid? What if I injure my hands or get my left leg amputated, will that stop me from worshipping or praising GOD? We are getting so involved in entertaining and trying to be like the world at church and not evangilizing and bringing lost souls to Christ that the church is loosing it's true power. Please respond. I want to hear every ones point on this. GOD Bless you all!!!
?/? It's not about the money, but you attend two or three churches and play there? ?/?
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sjonathan02
I wasn't utilizing the fact about "money being the root of all evil"; I was simply letting it be known, or re-known again. The rest of the information that I was stating was from what God allowed me to post and share with you all. I understand and it's all good.
God Bless
ShawnG
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sjonathan02
I wasn't utilizing the fact about "money being the root of all evil"; I was simply letting it be known, or re-known again. The rest of the information that I was stating was from what God allowed me to post and share with you all. I understand and it's all good.
God Bless
ShawnG
?/? When did I say that you said anything about what you've stated here? I quoted REV_G.
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sjonathan02,
My bad....I was responding because you "Qouted Rev", in which "Rev" qouted 'me'....My bad and I apologize...
ShawnG
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sjonathan02,
My bad....I was responding because you "Qouted Rev", in which "Rev" qouted 'me'....My bad and I apologize...
ShawnG
Not harm, no foul, pahtna! ;) :D
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I will say that I don't think there's anything wrong with blessing the Organ player with a "love offerin'". I will also say that there's nothing wrong with a preacher not requiring a musician at all.
But here's where we hit one of those gray areas...............I can praise God on the Organ at home by myself. By that statement, I don't deem it my "resposibility" to play at church just 'cause I can play keys. I play at church because I love to play AND IF OTHERS WANT TO PRAISE HIM WITH ME...........GOOD THEN!
On the other side of it..........If pastors pay others to conduct business in the church, I don't see a problem with blessing the musician......because after all MUSIC DURING WORSHIP SERVICE IS A LUXURY!!!!!!! and we should try to keep from being cheap with luxuries right???
Now across the table
I don't think it is right to just bust in and play the organ at whatever church and turn around and start demanding money. Some churches don't have the resources to pay musicians to play......which is prob'ly how you got on the keys in the first place.
Recently I have bee the musician of a small COGIC in Manteca C.A. They didn't pay me once and I don't expect them to. But I certainly do appreciate their appreciation. how's that GW???
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I will say that I don't think there's anything wrong with blessing the Organ player with a "love offerin'". I will also say that there's nothing wrong with a preacher not requiring a musician at all.
But here's where we hit one of those gray areas...............I can praise God on the Organ at home by myself. By that statement, I don't deem it my "resposibility" to play at church just 'cause I can play keys. I play at church because I love to play AND IF OTHERS WANT TO PRAISE HIM WITH ME...........GOOD THEN!
On the other side of it..........If pastors pay others to conduct business in the church, I don't see a problem with blessing the musician......because after all MUSIC DURING WORSHIP SERVICE IS A LUXURY!!!!!!! and we should try to keep from being cheap with luxuries right???
Now across the table
I don't think it is right to just bust in and play the organ at whatever church and turn around and start demanding money. Some churches don't have the resources to pay musicians to play......which is prob'ly how you got on the keys in the first place.
Recently I have bee the musician of a small COGIC in Manteca C.A. They didn't pay me once and I don't expect them to. But I certainly do appreciate their appreciation. how's that GW???
IRT the small print, not bad; not bad at all phonetically speaking, of course. ;) :D
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i think the issue is when there is evidence that the ministry got the money, then doesnt want to extend that to the musician. that's wack. Quite wack, in fact.
If the ministry is wanting in finances, then, that's a different set of drawbars.
I played for a church for years before gettng anything, I knew funds were tight, and i was cool with that. I was "tithing my gift", as it were. That's just where I was at the time. but they started puttin a lil sum'phin in the pocket not at my behest, but because they felt it was right to do.
It comes down to good business.
Folk know if they're gonna get paid BEFORE they start to play. It is your decision to accept that.
Dont jump on board because you see the need, and you wanna help, on som ol' "It's for the LORD", and then complain later cuz u aint gettin nuffin.
If one feels they must get paid for their services, then make that evident before the services!. If they cant do it, then it is what it is. Dont pull a single drawbar.
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i think the issue is when there is evidence that the ministry got the money, then doesnt want to extend that to the musician. that's wack. Quite wack, in fact.
I agree here. What kind of "ministry" would hold something back if they have it to give? Some kind of "ministry"!!!!!!!!
If the ministry is wanting in finances, then, that's a different set of drawbars.
I'm stealing this catch line!!!!
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i think the issue is when there is evidence that the ministry got the money, then doesnt want to extend that to the musician. that's wack. Quite wack, in fact.
If the ministry is wanting in finances, then, that's a different set of drawbars.
I played for a church for years before gettng anything, I knew funds were tight, and i was cool with that. I was "tithing my gift", as it were. That's just where I was at the time. but they started puttin a lil sum'phin in the pocket not at my behest, but because they felt it was right to do.
It comes down to good business.
Folk know if they're gonna get paid BEFORE they start to play. It is your decision to accept that.
Dont jump on board because you see the need, and you wanna help, on som ol' "It's for the LORD", and then complain later cuz u aint gettin nuffin.
If one feels they must get paid for their services, then make that evident before the services!. If they cant do it, then it is what it is. Dont pull a single drawbar.
This sums it all up, quite nicely. ;)
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This sums it all up, quite nicely. ;)
and with paragraphs!
*walks away whistling the GW theme**
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Religion is a business. Faith is not. We go to church because we have Faith, HOWEVER that does not interfere with the fact that we have trained in a craft and are being asked to use that craft to help someone else's business. The Pastor is getting paid. The staff is getting paid. It seems funny to me that everyone on the "business" side of things gets paid for their services, but there seems to be a taboo when it comes to getting paid to play for Jesus. I go to church to Worship. I do that as soon as I enter the building. I do not have to play organ or saxophone. That is a service in which someone wishes me to perform. I can choose to perform that for free or a fee can be established. That is the business end of Religion. Some churches grumble because it takes money out of the pot that would otherwise pay for "business" things. Music is OUR business. Stop feeling bad about that. God gave you the skills to be a musician. That is YOUR business. Church is the place you share that. Music does not HAVE to be a part of services. It is not a prescribed prerequisite for holding service. Churches on the cheap can always sing sans musicians. They did it in the past...
W
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I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo tired of people misquoting that particular piece of scripture. >:(
I second that... :(
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Churches on the cheap can always sing sans musicians. They did it in the past...
W
Yeh, call B_X, she's head of the washboard ministry, she can come by and do a seminar.
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and with paragraphs!
*walks away whistling the GW theme**
AMEN!!! :D :D ;D ;D
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I have to say that I beleive that you should play for the love of music not to get rich. Even though it is good when organist like my self get paid that is not what is all about. I have went to churches who had an organist that didn't show up for their all week revival, and I came all week on time actually ewarly and they didn't pay me. But I didn't let that stop me from coming and letting the glory of God come in and rest in the church. I even song for their services. So let us not worry about getting paid if money is a problem then ask God about getting a job. And starting actingly like you know that music is a ministry not a business when it comes to church.
Also I wanted ya'll to know that MUSIC IS NOT THE MOST MINISTRY IN THE CHURCH, because with out the word we wouldn't know how to get saved and stay saved.
Be blessed and highly favored of the Lord
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Let everything that had breath praise the Lord.....We are not suppose to worship money; which makes the situation worser when there's a debate about the church funds and musicians getting paid (This happened in my church when I was a teenager and the musicians and pastors debating over money almost tore our church apart, but I thank God for faithful praying Saints because they're still standing). The debate of money causes conflicts in the house of God to arise. And what does the "Devil" want? He does not want order, he does not want us to fellowship together in giving God the highest praise. The Devil wants nothing but confusion and conflicts. If you all don't know by now, the Devil comes to steal, kill and destroy. This situation is not at a level like this. But the Devil goes to church too and will create conflicts that will start small and get bigger and bigger. We have to continue to work together and pray as we worship God, allowing Souls to be save as they accept our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
To All Musicians: Honestly, if you have that gift that God allows you to have in playing instruments, then freely use it in church at your on will and let God bless you with a reward. If the church decides to consistently give you tokens and payments, be happy about it and accept it as a blessing.
Paraphasing: when praying and fasting, Anoint your head with oil and then wash your face; you don't have to let people know that you're fasting, in order to be bless. Jesus said that if you do it secretly, and keep the same appearance as if you were not fasting, then he will reward (bless you with more) (Keep in mind I was paraphasing) Matthew.
Now I know that we're all human and have all kinds of needs, but I would like to refresh you all with some words of encouragement listed below:
Ask and you shall recieve....
Knock and it shall be open...
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me (Phil 4: 13)
No matter what I may think of a church and no matter what I need in life, Truly it's all about Souls being saved and making it into the Kingdom of Heaven!!! :)
God Bless
ShawnG
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Here is my solution:
YOu should pay the people who would do it for free.
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I guess we can seperate this arguement into two camps.
Those that have bills to pay and those that pay the bills.
If you are a true musician and this is your calling from GOD, He will not slight you for earning an honest wage using the talents that He gave you in the first place. Secondly, there are numerous threads that talk about the 'evils' of Gospel musicians playing secular music YET right here in this very thread we are seeing the main factor as to why this happens.
God does not condemn musicians to a life of poverty. If you are a musician and you make a portion of your salary from playing in Church for Jesus, why is this an issue? It is not. The only people that believe that are those that are brainwashed by the Religion machine. They have been told all their lives that their talent was SUPPOSE to be given away for free because the people telling them this DIDN"T respect them enough or value them enough to do the right thing. I am not talking about voluntarily offering to play for free. (Which I do at my church... It was my decision)... I am talking about being told that a church will not pay their musicians because God will not hire mercenaries... That is garbage.
If a church wants a high quality organist and no one steps forward for free, then they will have to hire one. This does not diminish the fact that they have a great organist nor does it diminish the fact that the organist could be very Godly, it means that the musician knows the amount of preparation and practice and what not is worth a certain dollar amount. He is not a lover of money, he is practical and is trying to make ends meet. He is not greedy, he is trying to feed his family. Let us not forget that music, although creative, is still an occupation and to some of us it puts food on the table, pays for the roof over our heads, takes care of our families. Where is the 'evil' of working as a church musician. Does the Pastor get paid to preach? Is anyone on salary at your Church or are you all doing it for free? There is no difference at all. Your Pastor is worshiping God and collecting a check and so can your musicians.
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WOLFRAM
You summarized this entire thread.
Truly there are some churches that hire musicians...
Truly there are some churches that hire preachers and pastors...
I play for free also and I love to play; I know some pastors that don't get paid, but do it because of their calling.
ULTIMATELY:
With God first, the situation that you're in defines the conclusion that we're all seeking.
The information on this thread was very awesome from everyone and I hope you've all learned something, like I have.
God Bless.
ShawnG
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Religion is a business. Faith is not. We go to church because we have Faith, HOWEVER that does not interfere with the fact that we have trained in a craft and are being asked to use that craft to help someone else's business. The Pastor is getting paid. The staff is getting paid. It seems funny to me that everyone on the "business" side of things gets paid for their services, but there seems to be a taboo when it comes to getting paid to play for Jesus. I go to church to Worship. I do that as soon as I enter the building. I do not have to play organ or saxophone. That is a service in which someone wishes me to perform. I can choose to perform that for free or a fee can be established. That is the business end of Religion. Some churches grumble because it takes money out of the pot that would otherwise pay for "business" things. Music is OUR business. Stop feeling bad about that. God gave you the skills to be a musician. That is YOUR business. Church is the place you share that. Music does not HAVE to be a part of services. It is not a prescribed prerequisite for holding service. Churches on the cheap can always sing sans musicians. They did it in the past...
W
BEAST!!!
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Welcome to the LGM family "gharris004"....Be Blessed.
PianoWiz...
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Who wants to hear mother wilson play that rag time style of piano for the youth choir on sunday morning?
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
ROFLMBO
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We had a Similiar topic in another MB that I am Apart of...
Check this out
MrSparrow
Registered: 2/27/07
Posts: 681 7/13/07 at 09:40 AM
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Someone asked me about some scriptural backing for musicians getting paid. There are several underlying issues with this topic that I'm sure we'll get into but they all generally fall into two categories...
Cheap Churches- churches that want you to play for a 5 night revival, have $100 offering lines every night, shout for an hour EVERY night, have an hour long altar call etc... and then give the musician who's been there EVERY NIGHT ON TIME $50 ($10 bucks a night) for a "LOVE OFFERING"...
The same churches will pay their musician $50 a Sunday for the last 17 years and will look at you crazy if you ask for a $5 dollar a week raise but still have 5 different choirs, 2 different praise teams 4 concerts a year and want to hear the newest/latest songs EVERY SUNDAY...
and
Prostituting/Stripper Musicians- They only play for PAY no matter WHAT'S GOING ON...the preacher could say JESUS IS THE DEVIL WORSHIP ME!!!! and the musician will tune him up and start playing the latest shout... They play for 3 different churches every Sunday, they say they're not driven by the money but in the end that's all they are after. They are the equivalent of a prostitute or a stripper not caring at all for themselves or the john paying them as long as they get paid... David Koresh could call them to play in Waco and the first thing they would say is HOW MUCH is he paying??? They don't feel that church is the house of GOD/House of PRAYER/House of DELIVERANCE but they think it's a GIG like they're in the club...
A lot of churches think musicians should not charge for the "GIFT" God gave to the musician to bless the church. Most musicians who fall into the Prostitute category were burned by the church they honed their talent in so they often go to the other extreme...
All of this revolves around the lack of respect/lack of understanding concerning what a Levite is, what a Levite does and who a Levite is...
I know this is long and I've used extremes here to paint the picture so please don't get sensitive. All musicians aren't playing for the highest bidder and all churches don't pay their musician $1200 a year ($100 a month) but there are several that fall into that catergory...
A Levite is a keeper of the TENT OF MEETING. Nowadays we don't have tents, we have churches. A Levite is a priest (firstborn son) who is dedicated to serve the house of God and the people of God.
THIS WAS THEIR ONLY OCCUPATION.
Numbers 1:50
Instead, appoint the Levites to be in charge of the tabernacle of the Testimony--over all its furnishings and everything belonging to it. They are to carry the tabernacle and all its furnishings; they are to take care of it and encamp around it.
Numbers 1:53
The Levites, however, are to set up their tents around the tabernacle of the Testimony so that wrath will not fall on the Israelite community. The Levites are to be responsible for the care of the tabernacle of the Testimony."
The area surrounding the Tent of Meeting was for the Levites. Cities were given to the Levites
Leviticus 25:32
"'The Levites always have the right to redeem their houses in the Levitical towns, which they possess.
(I'm sorry I'm getting ahead of myself...)
That meant from the person scrubbing the toliets to the Minister of Music, to the usher board to the announcement lady... they are all keepers of the TENT of MEETING. They are all modern day Levites.
I'm about to wrap this up...
In this era of the appreciating the Man and Woman of God (PASTORS, APOSTLES, EVANGELISTS etc...) and blessing mandated from GOD for them for being the Angel of the house/Cheif Priest there has been a total disregard for the Levites. Pastors have fulltime ministry with health insurance, housing allowances (where do you think the IRS got that from? The WORD of GOD!!!) car allowances etc... the Levites have been shifted to volunteer status. I'm not talking about what I heard, I'm talking about what I KNOW! You would think that your cheif musician shouldn't be catching a cab or riding the bus to your church if your Pastor is driving a Bentley right?
THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON PASTORS!!!!!!
I'm not really posting this to argue but to enlighten and you really can't argue with the word...
Here it is... in black and white (and blue)...
DRUMROLL PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Numbers 18:21
"I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting. NIV
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. KJV
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. ASV
"I'm giving the Levites all the tithes of Israel as their pay for the work they do in the Tent of Meeting. The Message
It did not say, I give to the PASTORS all the tithes in Isreal as their inheritance... It did not say I give to the BISHOPS all the tithes in Isreal as their inheritance...
Read Numbers 18:20-32 see what THUS SAITH THE LORD concerning this topic...
God Bless ya...
MrSparrow
http://tyetribbettworldwide.com/
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I'm a 34 year church musician.......enough said...if I had gone into the "world" (get an understanding first of word world) I would have been in the forfront of all the music past and present as a writer, instrumentalist, composer etc. I chose to stay in the church. I didn't go to Berkley or any of the other tremendous institutions that have fostered so many of the past and present musicians. I went to work at 17, played for 6 choirs, met 4 rehearsals a week, played Tues, Thurs, Sunday all day (11 - 9 PM), played all the revivals, tent meeting, district meetings, state organist, every Sunday afternoon program and Pastor appointment. I saw my children on Monday and ddn't see them again til Sunday morning. I didn't make any PTA meetings, no cub scouts, little league softball etc. I went though musician burnout watching all the other musicans around me leave for better opportunity and easier workload. I had to do it over again...well you read between the lines.
I don't mean to gripe but my opinion is, if you sacrifice opportunities to support a local ministry, they should at least compensate you rightly, or you should move to a better situtation.
34 years and still going...........
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I'm a 34 year church musician.......enough said...if I had gone into the "world" (get an understanding first of word world) I would have been in the forfront of all the music past and present as a writer, instrumentalist, composer etc. I chose to stay in the church. I didn't go to Berkley or any of the other tremendous institutions that have fostered so many of the past and present musicians. I went to work at 17, played for 6 choirs, met 4 rehearsals a week, played Tues, Thurs, Sunday all day (11 - 9 PM), played all the revivals, tent meeting, district meetings, state organist, every Sunday afternoon program and Pastor appointment. I saw my children on Monday and ddn't see them again til Sunday morning. I didn't make any PTA meetings, no cub scouts, little league softball etc. I went though musician burnout watching all the other musicans around me leave for better opportunity and easier workload. I had to do it over again...well you read between the lines.
I don't mean to gripe but my opinion is, if you sacrifice opportunities to support a local ministry, they should at least compensate you rightly, or you should move to a better situtation.
34 years and still going...........
PREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEACCCCCCCCH!!!!!
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I don't mean to gripe but my opinion is, if you sacrifice opportunities to support a local ministry, they should at least compensate you rightly, or you should move to a better situtation.
34 years and still going...........
Amen.... very well said.
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I BELIEVE THAT A MUSICIAN SHOULD BE PAID AND WELL TAKEN CARE OF. I PERSONALLY GO BY THIS CREED: I DONT PLAY FOR MONEY BUT MONEY TAKES CARE OF THE NECESSITIES OF MY DAILY LIFE. (FOOD, SCHOOL SUPPLIES, AND ETC.) WHEN I GO TO A CHURCH AND PLAY 1ST TIME I DONT CHARGE, AND USUALLY WE NEGOTIATE AFTER THAT. ANOTHER TIP FOR MUSICIANS: IF YOURE GETTING PAID, GET YOUR MONEY FIRST THEN PLAY CAUSE EVERYBODY AINT SAVED AND SAFE. SO AS I COME TO A CLOSE DO WHATEVER THE LORD PUT ON YOUR HEART TO DO.
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I BELIEVE THAT A MUSICIAN SHOULD BE PAID AND WELL TAKEN CARE OF. I PERSONALLY GO BY THIS CREED: I DONT PLAY FOR MONEY BUT MONEY TAKES CARE OF THE NECESSITIES OF MY DAILY LIFE. (FOOD, SCHOOL SUPPLIES, AND ETC.) WHEN I GO TO A CHURCH AND PLAY 1ST TIME I DONT CHARGE, AND USUALLY WE NEGOTIATE AFTER THAT. ANOTHER TIP FOR MUSICIANS: IF YOURE GETTING PAID, GET YOUR MONEY FIRST THEN PLAY CAUSE EVERYBODY AINT SAVED AND SAFE. SO AS I COME TO A CLOSE DO WHATEVER THE LORD PUT ON YOUR HEART TO DO.
?/? This whole post.... ?/? ::) ::)
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I'm a 34 year church musician.......enough said...if I had gone into the "world" (get an understanding first of word world) I would have been in the forfront of all the music past and present as a writer, instrumentalist, composer etc. I chose to stay in the church. I didn't go to Berkley or any of the other tremendous institutions that have fostered so many of the past and present musicians. I went to work at 17, played for 6 choirs, met 4 rehearsals a week, played Tues, Thurs, Sunday all day (11 - 9 PM), played all the revivals, tent meeting, district meetings, state organist, every Sunday afternoon program and Pastor appointment. I saw my children on Monday and ddn't see them again til Sunday morning. I didn't make any PTA meetings, no cub scouts, little league softball etc. I went though musician burnout watching all the other musicans around me leave for better opportunity and easier workload. I had to do it over again...well you read between the lines.
I don't mean to gripe but my opinion is, if you sacrifice opportunities to support a local ministry, they should at least compensate you rightly, or you should move to a better situtation.
34 years and still going...........
Well stated bro! God bless you for your rational opinion.
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Welcome To LGM, gharris004
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Here is my solution:
YOu should pay the people who would do it for free.
I agree with 4hisglory,
I played for about a year and didn't ask for any money. I played because the Lord told me he wanted me to play.
By my obedience to the Lord he instructed my Pastor to give me a weekly gift. Also, after about another year the Pastor raised the gift.
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Greetings to all let me just say this when people ask me how much do I charge I can never give them a price because the Bible says that your gift will make room for you and it also states that what you sow you will also reap. What I am saying is when ever you give people a ste price for your services you are limiting God. God wants you in the position where you put him FIRST IN EVERYTHING THING YOU DO. We must realize as a "ministry" that our objective is not to look good because of others, it's not to where the newest fashions, it's not to complete but it's to usher in the Holy Spirit and save souls through your music.Your reward is not to get paid but make it to Heaven.
Be Blessed
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Then lets take that scripture and apply it to the enitre church ministry. You can apply it the the pastorial staff and the administration people, you can apply it to everything except the cold hard bills that come in i.e... power, water, gas, mortgage, etc... How many of the afore mentioned people would fill the positions they currently are in on a voluntary or even a 'by the Grace of God" love offering week to week. I am not trying to be blashemous. I am trying to show you that scripture can be used as a double edged sword. You can find Truth in many forms. The very fact that so many people are afraid to ask to be paid for their God given abilities shows me the strength of the religious machine. We have dictated to people, using the Holy Word as a weapon, what is righteous and what is not righteous. The fact of the matter is that we are not talking about one's spirituality in any of these discussions. It seems to always turn that way because the machine wants to guilt us into thinking we are bad to ask for payment for our services. The REAL problem is that we still live under the thumb of the clergy and they have always been thrifty. Why pay for it if you can get it for free? The easiest way to make someone step up is to shame them into a sense of responsibility.
So you see, one should not try to mix faith into this discussion. My faith in God is very strong. I believe that He has given me a talent and I use this talent to make my living. He has Graciously allowed me the means to do this. When I play in a church for service, I CHOOSE whether or not I will ask for payment. In turn the church will then CHOOSE whether or not the fee is worth the services rendered. My faith has nothing to do with this. That belongs to God not to the machine. People in all occupations have learned how to use our emotions to get exactly what they want out of us. As musicians, we know that already. It is the same in business. The administrative part of the machine wants to stay in the black as far as possible. Not having to pay their musicians is a big way to do that.
W
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I certainly feel what you brothers, and sisters are saying. I have been on both sides of that coin. The whole thing breaks down like this. When Pontius Pilate told our Lord that he had the power to release Him or have Him crucified, Jesus told him "You would have no power over me unless it is given from My Father in Heaven" We need to remember that whatever happens we are all servants of the Most High GOD, and it is to Him that we owe our service. I know that no body here is questioning that so here's the deal. GOD will bless us with more when He sees us taking care of the little that we have. So, let us stay strong in the Lord, knowing that what we do is for HIM. He is far more capable on His worst day (if He had any) then we could ever be on our best day. All of the glory, and honor belongs to HIM. We are in a good place, because we reflect that by playing love songs to HIM. GOD Bless you guys. Let's stay strong in HIS service at all costs.
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I know the feeling. I am the organist at my church and I get $ 30 stank dollars. The pianist who is 66 years gets $100 every sunday !!! She can't hold bubble gum to me not trying to brag but it is the truth. I am own to the church playing Monday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday. Age ain't got nothing to do with it. You do what is right. But I look to Jesus to take care of me. But don't look for your reward down here. But it does say in the Bible that musicians were payed.
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Why you all complaining. Are you an employee or a servant of the most high god?
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let's see. here in Detroit the organ is the dominant instrument around here, as well is other places maybe. pianist don't seem to make more than organist. more involved when playing organ. There's a site called detroitago.org something like that. Also there's a book of "musicians Guild of organists" which shows what organist should make with OR without a degree, and the lowest I've seen is $37 Gs a year WITHOUT a degree. Depends on what denomination, or where you're working.
Now a lot of times non-musicians determine your salary. They want the best for less. Who can out-think who? who is the fool that playeth for 5 choirs, 2 services, for under $500 a Sunday ? The "employers" are searching for those types. Once found, they'll brag during pastors' meetings on what they're paying. Meanwhile we go IN THE JOB looking, cuz we didn' get what asked for. Sometimes I'll just make enough to get a hamburger or something ( figure of speech ) , as we don't quit the day job... I just got off the phone from hearing a newsbreak : Church near Detroit / 7 choirs/ 4 rehearsals a week/ 2.5 services for $575 a week. See what I'm talking about ?
Yeah the love of money is the root of all evil, but we won' be pimped by some preachers who know more scriptures than that one. We BOTH are doing the Lord's work, but we're getting paid for the aggrevation believe that. No One will do this field with crazy people for nothing. The Money folks are watching you when they ARE truly paying $800 and above for prime time (11 AM service ). They have become a roaring lion, seekin to devour you, throwing darts at you ( why he wearing that ? that's not church decorum ), so just get some nice buffers that have your back while you play on, let the church roll on, and keep the check flowing :)
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Again,
Don't mix the business side of this with the spiritual side of this. No one here should have to justify their spirituality to any of you just because they feel they deserve to be paid a fair wage. Taking advantage of another person is also not a very Christian thing to do and that seems to be done on a regular basis...
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Again,
Don't mix the business side of this with the spiritual side of this. No one here should have to justify their spirituality to any of you just because they feel they deserve to be paid a fair wage. Taking advantage of another person is also not a very Christian thing to do and that seems to be done on a regular basis...
Didn' mix it. just sharing information. answering the question.
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let's see. here in Detroit the organ is the dominant instrument around here, as well is other places maybe. pianist don't seem to make more than organist. more involved when playing organ. There's a site called detroitago.org something like that. Also there's a book of "musicians Guild of organists" which shows what organist should make with OR without a degree, and the lowest I've seen is $37 Gs a year WITHOUT a degree. Depends on what denomination, or where you're working.
Now a lot of times non-musicians determine your salary. They want the best for less. Who can out-think who? who is the fool that playeth for 5 choirs, 2 services, for under $500 a Sunday ? The "employers" are searching for those types. Once found, they'll brag during pastors' meetings on what they're paying. Meanwhile we go IN THE JOB looking, cuz we didn' get what asked for. Sometimes I'll just make enough to get a hamburger or something ( figure of speech ) , as we don't quit the day job... I just got off the phone from hearing a newsbreak : Church near Detroit / 7 choirs/ 4 rehearsals a week/ 2.5 services for $575 a week. See what I'm talking about ?
Yeah the love of money is the root of all evil, but we won' be pimped by some preachers who know more scriptures than that one. We BOTH are doing the Lord's work, but we're getting paid for the aggrevation believe that. No One will do this field with crazy people for nothing. The Money folks are watching you when they ARE truly paying $800 and above for prime time (11 AM service ). They have become a roaring lion, seekin to devour you, throwing darts at you ( why he wearing that ? that's not church decorum ), so just get some nice buffers that have your back while you play on, let the church roll on, and keep the check flowing :)
Harold this is sooooooo true !!! Bishop Cole
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I have NEVER had a problem getting paid at church because that matter was taken care of before I started playing.
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Harold this is sooooooo true !!! Bishop Cole
OK, well let's help out Wolfram understand it. Not mixing busi- with worship. Just gathering info while ministring. You gotta know that things need to be aired out, cuz one could get a nervous breakdown and didn't know where it came from, or knew and didn't have enough health insurance from the "church" to help them out.
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I feel you man. The organist is the MOST important person during the church service. Even the pastor isnt as important as the organist come sunday morning. Anyone can give a sermon but not every one can run bass on the organ during choir selection #1 and #2. The American Guild of Organists say that a FULL TIME organist who plays gets between $34,000-$46,000 a year without a degree. Based on your 34 year qualifications, you would definitely be getting the top mark. American Guild of Organists also point out that a person can be so talented, that their price EXCEEDS the salary. I just cant see paying someone as talented as Reverend Charles Nicks on the organ $400 a sunday. I mean yes we are all servants of the lord, but dont pastor's get paid too? And last I checked, they get retirement, full health benefits, and EVERYTHING ELSE! Not only do musicians have to go to choir rehearsal, but they have to GO HOME AND PRACTICE! And not only that, they must deal with bad attitudes and play for people sometimes who cant even sing. Its time we start paying the organists what they deserve. For those of you who want to play for free, continue to do so. But always remember, you get what you pay for. And usually those people who play for free really aint that good in the first place.
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I feel you man. The organist is the MOST important person during the church service. Even the pastor isnt as important as the organist come sunday morning. Anyone can give a sermon but not every one can run bass on the organ during choir selection #1 and #2. The American Guild of Organists say that a FULL TIME organist who plays gets between $34,000-$46,000 a year without a degree. Based on your 34 year qualifications, you would definitely be getting the top mark. American Guild of Organists also point out that a person can be so talented, that their price EXCEEDS the salary. I just cant see paying someone as talented as Reverend Charles Nicks on the organ $400 a sunday. I mean yes we are all servants of the lord, but dont pastor's get paid too? And last I checked, they get retirement, full health benefits, and EVERYTHING ELSE! Not only do musicians have to go to choir rehearsal, but they have to GO HOME AND PRACTICE! And not only that, they must deal with bad attitudes and play for people sometimes who cant even sing. Its time we start paying the organists what they deserve. For those of you who want to play for free, continue to do so. But always remember, you get what you pay for. And usually those people who play for free really aint that good in the first place.
THIS is the most egregious LIE I've ever read in my tenure on LGM. It's so fraught with untruth that it's scary. :-\
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I feel you man. The organist is the MOST important person during the church service. Even the pastor isnt as important as the organist come sunday morning. Anyone can give a sermon but not every one can run bass on the organ during choir selection #1 and #2. The American Guild of Organists say that a FULL TIME organist who plays gets between $34,000-$46,000 a year without a degree. Based on your 34 year qualifications, you would definitely be getting the top mark. American Guild of Organists also point out that a person can be so talented, that their price EXCEEDS the salary. I just cant see paying someone as talented as Reverend Charles Nicks on the organ $400 a sunday. I mean yes we are all servants of the lord, but dont pastor's get paid too? And last I checked, they get retirement, full health benefits, and EVERYTHING ELSE! Not only do musicians have to go to choir rehearsal, but they have to GO HOME AND PRACTICE! And not only that, they must deal with bad attitudes and play for people sometimes who cant even sing. Its time we start paying the organists what they deserve. For those of you who want to play for free, continue to do so. But always remember, you get what you pay for. And usually those people who play for free really aint that good in the first place.
WOW.....................................umm......................yeah......................
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Listen to this. What happens if the pastor gets sick and dont come to church? the church does just fine without him during the service. ANother person can preach. But let your ORGANIST call in sick for 3 weeks straight. And lets see how your church service will be for 3 WEEKS! I know this is right! Its NOT agregious! Its true. On sunday morning, the organist carries the service. The pastor doesnt. Half the time, the pastor dont come out to the pulpit until like 30-40 minutes INTO THE SERVICE! So if the organist isnt the most important person during worship service, then WHO IS? I know JESUS is but as far as the PAID employees are concerned, the organist IS!
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Listen to this. What happens if the pastor gets sick and dont come to church? the church does just fine without him during the service. ANother person can preach. But let your ORGANIST call in sick for 3 weeks straight. And lets see how your church service will be for 3 WEEKS! I know this is right! Its NOT agregious! Its true. On sunday morning, the organist carries the service. The pastor doesnt. Half the time, the pastor dont come out to the pulpit until like 30-40 minutes INTO THE SERVICE! So if the organist isnt the most important person during worship service, then WHO IS? I know JESUS is but as far as the PAID employees are concerned, the organist IS!
Depending on the church, an organist can be found, real quick. ;)
Furthermore, finding someone who can CORRECTLY exegete biblical text ain't as easy as YOU'RE trying to make it sound. :-\
Your theory, is off......waaaaaaay off. I'll be prayin' for ya. :-\
BTW, if my church organist calls in sick 3 weeks straight, it's time to find another organist, anyway. ::)
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THIS is the most egregious LIE I've ever read in my tenure on LGM. It's so fraught with untruth that it's scary. :-\
Hi-five all the way from Louisiana.
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Hello all, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I truly believe that in order to play skillfully and to stay blessed with the ability to play the organ, or any instrument in the church you must stay in the will of GOD. Yes I play the drums for my church, but that don't make the church go round. We must remember GOD has given some people awesome gifts to play. But are we really playing for Gods annointing or is we playing for the LOVE OF MONEY. If you are looking for that big pay check and you are searching for money go and try to land a gig. But in the house of GOD play to give god the glory. Play until you feel the annointing. Most musicians these days have lost the humbleness that a musician should carry or have. Remember the reasons Satan was kicked out of heaven. I challange all musicians that play in the house of God to search themselves and see is they really living the life that God will be pleased with.
I would rather go to HEAVEN with my pockets empty and my soul saved
Than to go to HELL and burn with a pocket full of money ;) p
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How many preachers do you think are CORRECTLY exegeting texts every sunday? Most of these black preachers have fake doctorate of divinity degrees and are CROOKED any ways! Sermons are 30-40 minutes. Singing is like 1hr 30 minutes of the church service. THE MUSIC ministry is the MOST important ministry on sunday! Yes it is always good to have a good word. But the CHOIR and the organist carry the service. NOT the pastor! I will be praying for you as well! I am going to be going to divinity school to earn a masters. Do you know that most preachers dont even know how to publicly speak well? They dont even know how to WRITE A SERMON! And on sunday, many of them are LONG winded and they LOSE people's interest! Now come on dont act like I aint right about this! If you had to choose one not to come to church on sunday, who would you pick? THe pastor or the organist? Well being that there are OTHER minister's on the roster, I would pick the pastor. A DEACON can preach a sermon if needed!
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How many preachers do you think are CORRECTLY exegeting texts every sunday? Most of these black preachers have fake doctorate of divinity degrees and are CROOKED any ways! Sermons are 30-40 minutes. Singing is like 1hr 30 minutes of the church service. THE MUSIC ministry is the MOST important ministry on sunday! Yes it is always good to have a good word. But the CHOIR and the organist carry the service. NOT the pastor! I will be praying for you as well! I am going to be going to divinity school to earn a masters. Do you know that most preachers dont even know how to publicly speak well? They dont even know how to WRITE A SERMON! And on sunday, many of them are LONG winded and they LOSE people's interest! Now come on dont act like I aint right about this! If you had to choose one not to come to church on sunday, who would you pick? THe pastor or the organist? Well being that there are OTHER minister's on the roster, I would pick the pastor. A DEACON can preach a sermon if needed!
Your logic is terribly flawed. I'll say it like this, anybody, and I mean ANYBODY can be replaced.
I don't care that there are fake preachers out there. There are fake organists out there, too. Playing a sequencer with organ sounds and transpose buttons; so don't try to go there.
What you're suggesting is very, very dangerous, my dear friend. People should come to church, solely, to hear the music? :o That's crazy; and explains a lot about the poor state of a lot of churches in this country. We've put emphasis on EVERYTHING else, BUT God.
A workman IS worthy of his hire; and there ARE churches that do ALL of their musicians (and other paid positions) dirty and THAT'S a sin and a shame. But, what you're saying goes waaaay beyond what we're discussing here.
The correct choice is choosing a church that preaches and teaches the WORD OF GOD!!! Period.
Be Blessed.
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Paul and Simon in the jailhouse...sang praises to God...AND THE WALLS CAME TUMBLING DOWN...uuhh.uhh
...nope....read it for the thousanth time...no organ,bass,guitar,drums...sure I know there were temple musicians..but when YOU get desperate enough for God...YOU will not need music..just the word and a Good Shephard TO guide..
ps my personal income was around 17,000 the year I came to the Lord
no college...never asked for pay..just trusted in the Lord to PROVIDE...72,000 a year..@ the same job!!
And I guarantee you It was not me...All praise to Jesus
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Paul and Simon in the jailhouse...sang praises to God...AND THE WALLS CAME TUMBLING DOWN...uuhh.uhh
...nope....read it for the thousanth time...no organ,bass,guitar,drums...sure I know there were temple musicians..but when YOU get desperate enough for God...YOU will not need music..just the word and a Good Shephard TO guide..
ps my personal income was around 17,000 the year I came to the Lord
no college...never asked for pay..just trusted in the Lord to PROVIDE...72,000 a year..@ the same job!!
And I guarantee you It was not me...All praise to Jesus
Just a quick correction, I think you meant to say, "Silas". Other than that, you gets a ^5. :D
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UHM, mebbe in YO chu'ch, pahtna.......
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Just a quick correction, I think you meant to say, "Silas". Other than that, you gets a ^5. :D
:o ;D :D oops My bad...guess I,ll reread it for a thousand and one time LOL !!
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I play for two small churches. I earn $150 a week at both. Although we are performing a service to the Lord, the bible says "let the workman be worthy of his hire," that means that if you do a job, and do it well, you should reap the reward. How many of us musicians make sacrifices to work with a church, we sacrifice our time, money (with the price of gas these days). I feel that if we do our best with the talent that the Lord has blessed us with, the church should do it's best to compensate us. Let us not forget, many of us invest in our music ministries by paying for lessons, buying equipment to practice and perform with, and purchasing the latest cd's to stay abreast of what's hot in gospel music, that is what ;D the churches hire us for in the first place. right?
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Bout time somebody feeling me.
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I play for two small churches. I earn $150 a week at both. Although we are performing a service to the Lord, the bible says "let the workman be worthy of his hire," that means that if you do a job, and do it well, you should reap the reward. How many of us musicians make sacrifices to work with a church, we sacrifice our time, money (with the price of gas these days). I feel that if we do our best with the talent that the Lord has blessed us with, the church should do it's best to compensate us. Let us not forget, many of us invest in our music ministries by paying for lessons, buying equipment to practice and perform with, and purchasing the latest cd's to stay abreast of what's hot in gospel music, that is what ;D the churches hire us for in the first place. right?
Agree with virtually all you have said....question remains..whom is the Judge of the workman and how worthy is he?
If this is man than recieve your earthly reward...If this is God then your reward comes through him
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I play for two small churches. I earn $150 a week at both. Although we are performing a service to the Lord, the bible says "let the workman be worthy of his hire," that means that if you do a job, and do it well, you should reap the reward. How many of us musicians make sacrifices to work with a church, we sacrifice our time, money (with the price of gas these days). I feel that if we do our best with the talent that the Lord has blessed us with, the church should do it's best to compensate us. Let us not forget, many of us invest in our music ministries by paying for lessons, buying equipment to practice and perform with, and purchasing the latest cd's to stay abreast of what's hot in gospel music, that is what ;D the churches hire us for in the first place. right?
A few quick question(s):
Are you saying that the ONLY reason you take the lessons, buy the equipment, purchase the latest CDs AND practice is so that you can play for somebody's music ministry?
Do you ONLY do these things when you're hired by a church OR did you do these things BEFORE getting hired by a church?
What if you never got hired OR were fired, had to move, etc. What then? Would you NOT buy another CD or stop practicing until you got hired?
Lastly, are your motives SOLELY based on your being hired by a church? In other words, would you stop making an investment in YOU just because you're NOT playing for a church?
I'll let that marinate for a minute. ;) :)
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All good answers, hummmm let see 80 percent of service,do you like to work and not get your fair share of your pay. Dealing with many people in each choir. A souce of income yet if I lost my hands no insurance to replace that income. Being a musican is ALOT OF STRESS!
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Welcome to the LGM family "shtiiiii".....Be Blessed.
PianoWiz...
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If the organist was more important than the preacher of the Word, what would the music be based on? The annointing in a musician through his or her music only comes with their relationship and knowledge of God. It's because they know what God is all about that they worship Him through their music ministry. So you mean to tell me that you solely play in the house of worship as a source of income instead of a source of tapping in to the knowledge and presence of God? (Sorry if I went too deep out of the question. :-\)
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Put it like this.............unless you've been in a situation where you've been underpaid and mistreated........you are going to more than likely not agree and say that "oh, one should play for god alone". Now dont get me wrong, thats a cool way to go and I'm not knockin anyone for it. BUT, once you get people straight up lying then firing you/gettin another musician to cover themselves up, THATS where the problem is. I dont even think there is really a such thing as being underpaid because nobody makes you sign that contract.
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Put it like this.............unless you've been in a situation where you've been underpaid and mistreated........you are going to more than likely not agree and say that "oh, one should play for god alone". Now dont get me wrong, thats a cool way to go and I'm not knockin anyone for it. BUT, once you get people straight up lying then firing you/gettin another musician to cover themselves up, THATS where the problem is. I dont even think there is really a such thing as being underpaid because nobody makes you sign that contract.
My Dawg, THAT'S a whole 'notha thread, right there. :-\
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A few quick question(s):
Are you saying that the ONLY reason you take the lessons, buy the equipment, purchase the latest CDs AND practice is so that you can play for somebody's music ministry?
Do you ONLY do these things when you're hired by a church OR did you do these things BEFORE getting hired by a church?
What if you never got hired OR were fired, had to move, etc. What then? Would you NOT buy another CD or stop practicing until you got hired?
Lastly, are your motives SOLELY based on your being hired by a church? In other words, would you stop making an investment in YOU just because you're NOT playing for a church?
I'll let that marinate for a minute. ;) :)
Let me turn this around so the mirror is on you. Take YOUR job... The one that puts food on your family's table. Ask yourself those same questions in context to your job. I can appreciate the fact that folks love to try and pin the badge of "It's your responsibility" onto all working musicians when it comes to playing for the Lord. My question is that a plumber must have tools, as does an electrician, a welder, a carpenter, what is different about music?. All jobs require tools of the trade. Your arguement is flawed because you are trying to paint someone in the corner with a weak premise.
We practice, go to school, listen to music, and take lessons in order to be the BEST that we CAN be. This is primarily so we can be hireable. You would not hire a mechanic that had no training. You would not hire a plumber that had no credentials or idea of what he was doing. Likewise, a working musician is doing all this work for the end outcome... To get hired... Now whether or not you accept payment is up to you. It is so easy to paint with broad strokes on the woes of asking for $$, but the reality of it is, the church musician is no different than any other member of the staff an should be treated as thus.
I DISAGREE, however with the statement of musicians being more important the the preacher. The MESSAGE is ALWAYS the most important thing. You do not HAVE to have music in your services, but you must have a good pastor to keep the church on the path.
W
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Let me turn this around so the mirror is on you. Take YOUR job... The one that puts food on your family's table. Ask yourself those same questions in context to your job. I can appreciate the fact that folks love to try and pin the badge of "It's your responsibility" onto all working musicians when it comes to playing for the Lord. My question is that a plumber must have tools, as does an electrician, a welder, a carpenter, what is different about music?. All jobs require tools of the trade. Your arguement is flawed because you are trying to paint someone in the corner with a weak premise.
We practice, go to school, listen to music, and take lessons in order to be the BEST that we CAN be. This is primarily so we can be hireable. You would not hire a mechanic that had no training. You would not hire a plumber that had no credentials or idea of what he was doing. Likewise, a working musician is doing all this work for the end outcome... To get hired... Now whether or not you accept payment is up to you. It is so easy to paint with broad strokes on the woes of asking for $$, but the reality of it is, the church musician is no different than any other member of the staff an should be treated as thus.
I DISAGREE, however with the statement of musicians being more important the the preacher. The MESSAGE is ALWAYS the most important thing. You do not HAVE to have music in your services, but you must have a good pastor to keep the church on the path.
W
I'll answer your query in general. My job doesn't and won't pay for my student loans. ;)
I'm a teacher; I went to school to be a teacher. I have bills from that endeavor that I must pay back. I don't expect my employer to do so.
I went to school with the expectation of being hired as a teacher, and THAT is how I am paid (or compensated, if you will) for my time and efforts BEFORE I received my job.
The previous poster sounded as if they expected to be reimbursed for the money that they put out for their ability and desire to become a church musician. That doesn't make sense.
Now, if said individual wants to improve upon their craft, as they should, then THEY are to purchase the CDs (in my case, it would be various supplies), THEY are to pay for their lessons (in my case, that would be the conferences that I attend to improve upon my teaching skills), etc.
Let us NOT assume that because I'm NOT a church musician that I don't understand the undertaking.
In addition, if we're going to try to draw a parallel between professions, let's talk about how under paid teachers are, since you decided to try and come at MY neck about MY job. ::)
BTW, I AM glad that we agree about what's important in church. That's a good place to start. ;) :D
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Am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with getting paid by the churh. Man either folks are complaining about not getting paid or not being paid enough. First, we must realize it is a blessing to be able to be used by the Lord in an important part of worship. As a MOM I don't get paid by the church but I still play my part and do it faithfully. I don't think musicians should get paid right away. There should be a grace period in which they prove faithfulness and understand how important there role is in the ministry. Now a days and body that can play can get a "Gig" in church playing. Just my opinion
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My Dawg, THAT'S a whole 'notha thread, right there. :-\
True..........just sayin it to get my point across that the actual pay scale aint really the issue................nothin else
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I'll answer your query in general. My job doesn't and won't pay for my student loans. ;)
If Your Job Won't Pay Them Then Why Are You Working????????? What Do They Pay You With???????????????
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Well The True Question Should Be Where Are You Employed!!! Is Your Employer The Church??? If That Is The Case Then Money Is The Reason That You Play Period. Let Some Of The Posters In This Forum Go To Work 40 Hours In A Week and Pay Day There Boss Shakes There Hand and Say Thank You >:( >:( and Not :D :D Will Be The End!!!!
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I'll answer your query in general. My job doesn't and won't pay for my student loans. ;)
I'm a teacher; I went to school to be a teacher. I have bills from that endeavor that I must pay back. I don't expect my employer to do so.
I went to school with the expectation of being hired as a teacher, and THAT is how I am paid (or compensated, if you will) for my time and efforts BEFORE I received my job.
The previous poster sounded as if they expected to be reimbursed for the money that they put out for their ability and desire to become a church musician. That doesn't make sense.
Now, if said individual wants to improve upon their craft, as they should, then THEY are to purchase the CDs (in my case, it would be various supplies), THEY are to pay for their lessons (in my case, that would be the conferences that I attend to improve upon my teaching skills), etc.
Let us NOT assume that because I'm NOT a church musician that I don't understand the undertaking.
In addition, if we're going to try to draw a parallel between professions, let's talk about how under paid teachers are, since you decided to try and come at MY neck about MY job. ::)
BTW, I AM glad that we agree about what's important in church. That's a good place to start. ;) :D
Teachers are under paid but you do make decent money....I am considering becoming a music teacher..
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If Your Job Won't Pay Them Then Why Are You Working????????? What Do They Pay You With???????????????
I'm sure your question is satirical in nature. ;)
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I'm sure your question is satirical in nature. ;)
Drum Roll Please ?/?
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Drum Roll Please ?/?
Ok. ?/?
If your question ISN'T satirical in nature, what did you mean by it? ?/?
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What a lot of people do not realize is that if you are single person without any kids taxes will eat you up. Some churches give you a 1099 at the end of the year for tax purposes. Essentially, you end up giving most of your money back to the IRS. One time, musicians would get paid under the table(some still do), however, since the IRS has "cracked down" on most churches, this behavior has stopped.
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What a lot of people do not realize is that if you are single person without any kids taxes will eat you up. Some churches give you a 1099 at the end of the year for tax purposes. Essentially, you end up giving most of your money back to the IRS. One time, musicians would get paid under the table(some still do), however, since the IRS has "cracked down" on most churches, this behavior has stopped.
If you are putting away 25% of your income for the IRS, then you need not worry about 1099. I have been doing this a long time and have learned that if you are honest with your income you never have to worry about things. It is those that believe they are entitled to tax free money that get into trouble. Set up an account to place the 25% into or set an envelope aside for the cash. Train yourself to do this each and everytime you get paid for a gig and you will soon be making it a habit. The church has a tax shelter, you do not.
W
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What a lot of people do not realize is that if you are single person without any kids taxes will eat you up. Some churches give you a 1099 at the end of the year for tax purposes. Essentially, you end up giving most of your money back to the IRS. One time, musicians would get paid under the table(some still do), however, since the IRS has "cracked down" on most churches, this behavior has stopped.
Please reconsider taxes and being single. lol you haven't seen nothing yet if you plan on having kids. Other life expenses more than surpass the child tax deductions. ( buy 2 plane tickets instead of one, weekly daycare costs,pampers,clothes, etc.)
There are many misconceptions about taxes. A 1099 has many more benefits than your standard 1040 return. Also, you don't actually pay 25% of your total income. You pay 25% of the portion of your income that falls within that particular bracket. But thats a whole 'nother thread.
Churches are accountable just like any other non-profit organization for their cashflow and ( if my memory serves me correctly)I believe they have to pay an employee with a check.
Just my 2 cents
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There isn't anything wrong with getting paid as long as the ministry has the funds to do it. Musicianship is hard work. If you play for the love and for God's glory the side orders will come but if you start playing because you feel the money is good then thats the wrong motivation.
Ofcourse there are going to be a lot there misinterpret what the Bible says about money. If a musician who puts in alot of time shouldn't he/she be paid $350-$500 a week? Then we need to stop paying pastors, bishops, evangelist. Being a musician is a unique skill set. If you look at it there are more preachers than musicians. If we refrain from the holier than though attitude and use common sense in our judgement we should see that musicians deserve lover offerings/salary.
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Please reconsider taxes and being single. lol you haven't seen nothing yet if you plan on having kids. Other life expenses more than surpass the child tax deductions. ( buy 2 plane tickets instead of one, weekly daycare costs,pampers,clothes, etc.)
There are many misconceptions about taxes. A 1099 has many more benefits than your standard 1040 return. Also, you don't actually pay 25% of your total income. You pay 25% of the portion of your income that falls within that particular bracket. But thats a whole 'nother thread.
Churches are accountable just like any other non-profit organization for their cashflow and ( if my memory serves me correctly)I believe they have to pay an employee with a check.
Just my 2 cents
err...
A form 1099 is what you get as a contract player (aka independent contractor) from an employer that does not with-hold taxes for you. This 1099 is their way of showing that they are paying money out for services rendered by a private contractor. It is YOUR responsibility to pay you own taxes on this money if it is over the sum of $600. Now, what does this have to do with the form 1040? This 1099 is added into your INCOME portion of your form 1040. In fact if you are a musician and are properly declaring your money you are going to be filing a form 1040 with a schedule C attached to declare your deductions. These deductions are what you place against your income so the tax is less and you get a return. If you need more information on this matter, contact me and I will walk you through it. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
Wolfram
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I realized a long time ago that I enjoyed playing too much to allow frustrated expectations take that away. I would have to say that my parents were very instrumental in this realization. Because of that, I charted a traditional course of education to support my family with. Now, music is something I enjoy participating in without financial frustrations. Somewhere along the way, God blessed the time that I had to give freely and I am content with my rate of growth. Not only that, but there's not as much pressure. ;)
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How many preachers do you think are CORRECTLY exegeting texts every sunday? Most of these black preachers have fake doctorate of divinity degrees and are CROOKED any ways! Sermons are 30-40 minutes. Singing is like 1hr 30 minutes of the church service. THE MUSIC ministry is the MOST important ministry on sunday! Yes it is always good to have a good word. But the CHOIR and the organist carry the service. NOT the pastor! I will be praying for you as well! I am going to be going to divinity school to earn a masters. Do you know that most preachers dont even know how to publicly speak well? They dont even know how to WRITE A SERMON! And on sunday, many of them are LONG winded and they LOSE people's interest! Now come on dont act like I aint right about this! If you had to choose one not to come to church on sunday, who would you pick? THe pastor or the organist? Well being that there are OTHER minister's on the roster, I would pick the pastor. A DEACON can preach a sermon if needed!
It seems your priorities are a little jumbled. I mean the man of God is called to lead the people of God and literally serve as a shepherd. That goes beyond preaching on Sunday Morning.
*A lot of good pastors are underpaid because they have a heart for the ministry and want to invest everything they can to see it grow.
*The organist doesn't have responsibility for the souls in the congregation.
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*The organist doesn't have responsibility for the souls in the congregation.
?/?yes they do ?/?