how to get phat voicings instantly

[diverse379]

No Sjonathon you are right it would be helpful to do both its just that Eggs was the first one to really try to bring something back to the table and I felt bad because you berated him so vicisously

but you are right it was hard to figure out.

[sjonathan02]

While I was looking at this on the board this weekend, I noticed that C diminished and Gb diminished are the same chord.
So in terms of what the official related diminished chord is for Ab is concerned, I don't think it matters because you'll end
up with the same triads no matter which note you use, namely ... C,Eb,Gb,A.

Ok, I can understand this seeing as how all that's really talking about here is inversions, right? So, not only could it be a C dim or Gb dim, but it could also be an Eb dim or an A dim, yes?

And in addition, I also noticed this... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is major in the key that you are
playing in, then you can use a major third to find the diminished family... and likewise, if the dominant of the chord is
minor in the base key, than you can use a minor third to find the diminished family:

I'll stay with the key of C#, like the rest of the thread... if we are voicing Ab, we take the dominant which is Eb... now,
Eb is minor in the original key of C#, so we take a minor third, which is Gb... and this gives us the related diminished family...
now, if we wanted to voice C#, we take the dominant, which is Ab... and since Ab is major in the key of C#, we then take
a major third, which gives us the diminished family of C.

Ok, here I was thrown for a good minute, but I'll share what I think I understand. In relation to Db (since we're talking flats, even though C#/Db are enharmonic), if I want to voice an Ab7 chord, I can use the third degree of this Ab chord and use it's diminished family, right? Here's my question, where am I going next? Can I, for example, do this:

in Db
Ab Eb Gb/ A C Eb Gb
Db Ab/ C Eb F Ab

In addition, if one wanted to voice a Db chord, couldn't they simply make F (the third degree of the Db scale) diminished? So, you would get this:

Db Ab B/ F Ab B D

Diverse, I noticed in this thread, that you seemed unsure of when to lower notes on the third of the dominant when
finding the related diminished family... well using the method I mentioned, I find that I don't need to lower any notes at all...
the major or minor third rule gives you the diminished family of roots on which you build your right hand triads without lowering
any notes... try it.

I can agree with this statement.

And then, there's one more thing that I noticed... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is minor is the base
key, then you can use the major third of the root of the chord you are voicing to find the diminished notes... so look at
Ab in the key of C# again... the dominant of Ab is Eb, and since Eb is minor in the key of C#, we can use the major third
of Ab to find the diminished notes... the major third of Ab is C... and even though we can say that the relative diminished
family of Ab is Gb by the dominant method above, C diminished is still in that family, as I stated in the beginning of the post...
and therefore we end up with the same family of notes to build the triads on... now look at C#, the tonic... we've already
determined earlier that the related diminished of C# is C using the dominant method, with Ab being the dominant of C#...
now, since Ab is major in the key of C#, we cannot use the major third of C# to find the diminished family... let's try it...
the major third of C# is F, and F is not in the C diminished family... so the shortcut appears to work only when the dominant
of the chord being voiced is minor is the base key that you're playing in...

Ok, for this one, if it is true, which I don't believe it to be (to my limited, but ever-growing knowledge, I'm going to need Jack Bauer and the rest of CTU to help me decipher this code.


I'm out; my head hurts, I think

[sjonathan02]

No Sjonathon you are right it would be helpful to do both its just that Eggs was the first one to really try to bring something back to the table and I felt bad because you berated him so vicisously

but you are right it was hard to figure out.

Uh, I didn't berate him at all. I was simply asking a question.

[diverse379]

NO NO Sjonoathon

Here are the chords again Eggs had it wrong


Db uses triads B, D, F, Ab

Eb, uses triads DB E, G, Bb

F uses triads  Eb, Gb, A, C,

F# uses triads E, G, Bb Db

Ab uses Triads B, D, F, Ab

Bb uses B, D, F, Ab

C uses A, F#, C, Eb


the above notes next to the chord is the family ofseventh chords or triads that you can superimpose over the shells I already did all the lowering and everything else

so you dont have to sit and try to figure everything out

Sorry If I misunderstood you sometimes it is hard to catch the intent correctly from a typed message my bad

But Eggs in an atempt to figure this thing out made a serious error  hes way will not allow you to fully use the rest of the system

there is more to come so Please if you want to understand it dont try to find the short cut

simply go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten

build a diminished on its third\ degree

then lower that diminished chord a half step

thats it three steps and you have your family of sevenths

the only exception is with a dominant chord you go to its third not to its dominant for the relative diminished chord then you lower it like you did the major and minor chords

So in any scale the fifth degree is a dominant chord this chord is the exception

you go to its third not to its dominant

that is all there is to it

 

[Eggs]

sJonathan,

Sorry, I'm still working on some good examples, and I understand that you were just asking a question! ... no prob! 

Yes, I was talking about inversions on the first point.  The notes are just roots of the same diminished chord.

On your second question regarding Db, I would say no because the chord you are voicing (Db) is the same as the tonic
of the key you are playing in.... in other words the rule says to use the dominant of the chord, which is Ab, and Ab is
major in the key of Db, so you take the major third of Ab, which is C, to get the diminished family... so then you can
see that F, which is the major third of Db, is not in that family... that's why I believe that you can only use the major
third of the root chord when the dominant of the chord is minor is the key you are playing in..

i.e.   In the key of Db:

        If you are voicing Db (the tonic):
           Ab is the dominant of Db, and Ab is major in the key of Db, so you CAN'T use the major third of Db to get the dim. family...
           you have to use the normal (dominant-->3rd of dominant) method
         
        If you are voicing Bb (the sixth of Db):
           F is the dominant of Bb, and F is minor in the key of Db, so you CAN use the major third of Bb to get the dim. family...
           the major third of Bb is D, which gives you the same diminished family as the (dominant-->3rd of dominant) method...
           in other words... F is the dominant of Bb, F is minor in Db, so take the minor third of F, which is Ab... and you can see
          that Ab diminished (Ab,B,D,F) contains the major third of Bb, or D... Ab diminished and D diminished are inversions of each
          other, so they represent the same root notes to build the triads on ... see? ... the  "major third of the root" thing is just
          a shortcut to what Diverse what saying, depending on what chord you are voicing, and in what scale...


I hope I've cleared up my explanation... keep in mind that I could be totally wrong about all of this.... I'm not trying to teach it,
I'm just trying to see if other people think what I'm discovering is valid.... that's all... (or think I'm discovering)

Oh, and I apologize for making your head hurt! 

HTH,
Eggs

[diverse379]

It is a little hard to read but
Sjonathon you didnt have to bite the brother's head off

anyway Eggs I think you are doing something very different you may be coming up with nice sounds which is good but it is not the system that Barry teaches

Ab7 has the C diminished as its relative diminished and the family that belongs to C diminished ( to build the triads on ) are B, D, F, Ab so whayt did you do

A uses a A-6 chord over the Ab

Ab/ F#, A, C#, E

[sjonathan02]

Db uses triads B, D, F, Ab

Eb, uses triads Db E, G, Bb

F uses triads Eb, Gb, A, C,

F# uses triads E, G, Bb Db

Ab uses Triads B, D, F, Ab

Bb uses B, D, F, Ab

C uses A, F#, C, Eb

1. simply go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten

2. build a diminished on its third degree

3. then lower that diminished chord a half step

thats it three steps and you have your family of sevenths

Ok, here's where I'm confused, in terms of how to build these chords. And again, "theorists" WHY is one doing this? What is the point and purpose of all of this???

Let's take a new key, let's do F. Now, according to your "3 step process", all one has to do is:

1. Go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten . I want to phatten the tonic F.

2. Build a diminished on its third degree. The third degree of F is A; so the diminished of A is A C Eb Gb, correct? Which are also the keys that you used in the key of Db (refer to quoted post by Diverse)

3. Then lower that diminished chord a half step. Now, here is what I don't understand. Why does one lower the diminished chord, AND where are the results of that in your example in Db? According to your 3 step process, you only did steps 1 & 2.

I digress, if one completes your 3 step process, then in our new key of F, lowering the A diminished chord would give us an Ab diminished chord. A C Eb Gb to Ab B D F.

How wrong am I so far?

[diverse379]

Hi Sjonathon Well it looks like you put a lot of work into this so I hope my answer clears it up for you.

Why do I do this
because it can give you chordal runs and new chords to play in place of the ones you usually use

passing corhds approach chords or new chords to insert in your progressions

I wish I kniew how to set up a midi file I could play an example of how I use this


now on to your question and your post

The first thing You want to phatten F right?
so you need to go to the dominant of F whchi is C

and then do everything else you said in your post

go to the third of C

build a diminish on that C which is E

Then lower that diminish a half step


Now you asked why do this step

do you know what a seventh chord is?

if you do then this answer will make sense
if you look at any diminish chord it has four notes any four of those notes can be lowered a half step to produce a 7th chord

 Look at the E diminished which is the relative diminished of F

( by the way the relative dimished can give your tonic chord A major 7
a nine, A suspension and a flat 13 note

so a lot of tenisons can be made from the relative diminieshed.

to get back to my point

look at E diminsihed if you lower just the e a hlaf step you get Eb7

if you lower the G a half step on e diminished you get F#7
if you lower the Bb a half step in E diminished you get A 7
if you lower the Db  a half step in E diminshed you get C7

what does this mean it means that in place of a diminished chord you can play any one of these 7th chords

It also means that since the diminshed chord E gives F many extended chord tones you can super impose any one of the 7th chord family over the given chord tone to produce a new tonal color.


Later on I will give new ways to use these chords and principles but for now
you have at least 8 new chord sounds to put over an F chord many you some you may already play

but others you may not so without knowing anything else about theory you can produce many advanced chords that you never would have before

Now I use them a little differently I make runs out of playing all the four triads in a row over the tonic chord to produce  a four chord run whcih leads me to the next chord lets use

F since you went there play this 6-2-5-1

I am using the method to pahtten my D chord but a
i am going to use all the availabe triads from the family for d

play the first four chords as Quarter notes one beat each then play the next three chords  as half notes (two beats each)

DC/ AC#E 
DC/ F$ Bb Db
DC/Eb G Bb
DC/ CEG
GD/ Bb D, F
F#/ Ab Db, F
F/ E G A C

Note the last chord which is a major nine got its major 7 and its nine from the related diminished

I really hoped this helped you I see you really put some time into figuring this out when I first put it up you said you were clueless and now you seem to have the basic concept down you just left out the first step of leaving out the diminished

Finally The list I posted last was given because I was just giving you the list of family for each scale tone I already did all the steps for you.

But it was meaningless right because you didnt know how I got them so then how would you build your own. in new keys

when it comes to theory either you under stand the whole concept and utilize it or understand some of it and un=dre utilize it or misuse it.

I hope this helps

God Bless you

[Eggs]

Looks like I mis-used it a bit... but I think I have it now.

Diverse,

I will try and post some progressions to see if I am doing this right, once I get home later.
I guess I was looking for too many shorcuts, and I was also unsure of the difference between
the "relative diminished" and the "diminished chord family", which, by your explanation is a
half step lower, right?

Sjonathan,

I hope his last explanation helps you as much as it helped me.   

I'll be back...

Thanks,

God bless,
Eggs

[sjonathan02]

The first thing You want to phatten F right?
so you need to go to the dominant of F whchi is C

and then do everything else you said in your post

go to the third of C

build a diminish on that C which is E

Then lower that diminish a half step

Are you saying that you're only going to lower one note or all of the notes? Using your example:

E G Bb Db to Eb G Bb Db

OR


E G Bb Db to Eb Gb A C

If you're saying the last one, then that makes sense AND sounds better.

But, you still really haven't answered my question for me in terms of where I can go AFTER playing this super-wonderfurific chord. 

And, as for your 6-2-5-1 example, aren't you just using variations of the two, and a tri-tone sub for the 5 and then the 1?

[diverse379]

Ok I see you are real close

The first one Eb G Bb Db
and all the three were giiven just to illustrate where the lowered diminished chord came from

I was showing you how we got to this family of seventh chords so you could see it was a process and the whole lowering thing is not a waste of time but an important step


you say I did not show you how these can be used

Why not you give me a progression that you play

but if you go back to my original post i gave several examples of how you would or could use these

but why dont you give me a four chord progresson of your own And i will apply this concept to your progression

As far as my 6-2-5-1 you asked me was i using variaions of the two

I dont think so The two is Gninor  And i played four triads A, F#, Eb, And CI was playing all four triads from the family of 7ths A, F# Eb And C which all came from the family.

and yes the Last chord was a tritone sub but it was also in the family of sevenths And that is what makes this system so powerful you already have tritone substitution built into the mix you have the sus chord built into the mix  you have the dominant three built into the mix and the regular dominant chord

so without knowing a lot of theory this system can give a new player who maybe only knows the four basic chords a way to really jump start his playing

So give me a progression you use and give me a chord that you want me to apply this system to and I will see what I can do

[sjonathan02]

Ok, I think we're getting somewhere. For me (and my ear at this point), some of these chord variations are really dissonant. Since I'm not there yet, I'll try to give you an example of how I would use them.

In Eb


a 2-5 walkup

F/ B Eb F Ab
G/ Bb Eb G
Ab/ B Eb F Ab
Bb/ Bb Eb F G

C/ Bb Db E G
F C Eb/ A Db E Gb
Bb F Ab/ B D G

Eb Bb/ Bb Eb F G


So, let's go from here and see how this works. For me, it just seems like because the notes in the C diminished are the same as in the Eb dim, what can't I simply use that thought process. So far, the only chord that I wouldn't have thought to play (and which I don' t like the sound of) is the F#7 chord.

[diverse379]

I Wanted you to give me the basic pogression and I would add the concept to it but I will take the @-5 walk up in that key using that flat 5 minor chord

I will keep the integrity of the progression and ad color to he Bb chord once it changes over to the dominant

so lets take it from

Bb/ Bb, Db, E, G
F/ B Eb F Ab
G/ Bb Eb G
Ab/ B Eb F Ab
Bb/ Bb Eb F G

C/ Bb Db E G

FCEb/ G,Bb, Eb
Bb D/ Ab, D, E
Bb, F,/ G, B, D     Or Eb,F (G, B, D)  note the left F is a nine interval not a 2
Eb, G,/ G, Bb, Eb,


What I did was color the Bb and ai also colored the Eb chord a little using one of the family the family for the 1 and the 5 were the same family
My available choice were E G, Bb Db since We were on a 5 chord I did not want to use the Db because it would have made it minor and the Bb would have been redundant

but there are times when I would have used the Db for example if I wanted to go to the Ab chord I would have played the Db over Bb to the Db over Eb to the Ab chord

Bb/ Db, F, Ab,
Eb, Db, F, Ab,
Ab, C, Eb, F, Ab

Which is a simple 2- 5-1 I know but its chord structure is taken right from our family of sevenths   do you see the power of this You of cours must experiment with what works where and when but what a tool to have access to

you are right all the chords will not always be soi great sounding because it is all about where they are going

The example I gave you of the run you can look at it as Eb diminished if you want as long as you know where it came from which is the third of its dominant and then lowered

As far as your comment on the dissonance I dont use the full seventh chords for that same reason because the inclusion of the seventh is hard to manage so I use triads they are more user friendly you could even use one  note or two notes from the triad its up to you they are just tones that you can add to your taste

like what if you used just the F# and Bb over the D C shell in that 6-2-5- 1 example i gave

DC/ F# Bb
G, Bb/ F, Bb
CBb/ E, C,
F,A,/G,A,C

It doesent sound so dissonant now does it

You have made great strides and you may not know it yet but you have a very powerful tool in your arsenal I learned this two years ago and only recently began to realize the power of it especially when you use it in conjucntion with the other concpets Barry Harris teaches

Let me know what you think of the changes I gave you

Dc

[sjonathan02]

Ok, so I'm gonna check these chords tonight when I get home. I'll let you know later tonight.

[Eggs]

Diverse,

The related diminished chords don't change for each scale, right?

The related diminished for Db will always be C in every scale?  .... unless it's the dominant, and
then it would be F?  Is that right?

Eggs

[sjonathan02]

Diverse,

The related diminished chords don't change for each scale, right?

The related diminished for Db will always be C in every scale?  .... unless it's the dominant, and
then it would be F?  Is that right?

Eggs

This is the other thing that I don't understand. I don't get related dim vs. dim family

[diverse379]

There you go looking for short cuts again eggs
but you are rght the relative diminished for Db major and minor will be C

The rlated diminished if for Db7 will be f
and for Db half diminished it will be Bb

To Sjopnathon

what dont you understand why do we need to find it or know it or how to use it or

I will tell you

First the related diminished can always be used to preceed the chord its related to so if you wanted to land on Db you can preceed it with C diminihsed

second if you wanted to harmonize a melody and you were on the one chord you could use the one chord and its relatated diminished to harmonize the melody (this works well when the melody moves in steps

Like this
move using Cminor and its relative diminished

GC/Eb, A
F, B/D, Ab
Eb, A/C,G
D,Ab/B,F
C,G/ A, Eb

Third And I know I said this before
You can borrow notes from the relateive diminished to add to your chords
and you can borrow notes from the major chord to play over the diminished

keep the questions coming because I am about to take this to the next ;eve;

[sjonathan02]

Quick question, Diverse,


When you use commas, is that to indicate playing the notes separately?


It makes a difference when trying to read your posts

[diverse379]

No I dont mean it that way I do that for ease of reading

[sjonathan02]

No I dont mean it that way I do that for ease of reading

Well, it's not easier, just confusing. Ok, so I've played the chords you posted, and I don't see much of a difference (and I didn't like the sound of the Bb D/ Ab D E chord, but I'm probably missing something.

What is the biggest difference between the related vs. the relative diminished?


Also, one of these dims (related or relative) can be made simply by going from the dominant 7th and call it a day, yes? For example:


Bb F Ab/B D F Ab (although, truth be told, I don't like to repeat notes unless it's truly necessary)

So, if what I'm saying is true, then:

a. which dim are we talking about
b. where am I going next when I use whichever dim we're talking about.

My reason for letter 'b' is because some of these chords sound better going to a minor rather than a major.


And, now which dim is this and how would I use it; where would I go?:

Bb F Ab/A C Eb Gb


Now, I can see using this chord and going to an Eb min7 chord; or using a variation of the above chord

Bb F/ Ab7 or
Bb F/ B7 or
Bb F/ D7 or
Bb F/ F7 or

and then go to an Eb min7 chord.


Am I any closer to getting this?