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Gospel Instruments => Gospel Keyboard / Piano => Topic started by: diverse379 on March 06, 2006, 10:51:36 AM
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this is a easy way to improve your voicings and sounds you get as you make your changes
If you are always searching for new voicings make sure you learn my two rules and apply this stuff people will be asking you what is that you playing?
this is a theory thing so bear with me.
I will do it all in the key of Db
you will need to know how to build a simple triad and or seventh chord and how to build a diminished chord
rule one each diminshed chord has forur roots each root when lowered produces a seventh chord
c diminished
is C Eb Gb A
If you lower the c you end up with a B7 chord
if you lower the Eb you get a D7 chord
you get the idea ok if you build a triad on each of the new lowered degrees you get four new voicing possibilites for any chord you like
rule two
your related diminished is locatedon the third of its dominant chord or V chord of the chord you want to color
This sounds complicated but there is a reason I had to say it this way in order for you to be able how to find the colors on any chord and scale degree
lets try this
Lets go from 6-2
in Db which is Bb to Eb
the related diminished chord of the Bb is A diminshed
Because the dominant chord of Bb is F and the third of F is A Na mean
if you lower each tone of the diminished you get Ab-B-D-F and if you put each of these triads over a Bb and Ab shell you uatomaticlally have four new voicings for the Bb chord in the key of Db
lets try it
LH / Rh
lets try the Ab triad first
Bb,Ab/ C,Eb,Ab- Eb,G/C,Eb,G
The next diminished tone is B lets try the b triad over The Bb shell in the left hand
Bb,Ab/ B, Eb, Gb- Eb, Gb Bb, Eb, Gb
The next diminished tone is D
Bb, Ab,/ D,F#, A--- Eb, Gb/ Eb,Gb
finally we have the last diminshed tone for Bb in the key of Db
which is F
Bb Ab/ F, A, C, Eb, Bb/ F, Gb, Bb, Db
you will notice that each time i went to a different Eb voincing this is because you have to remember to voice lead for smoothness and because each triad changes the type of 6 chord you are using it alters the two chord you go to
This is where it gets interesting you can do this on any scale degree
there are only two rules to remember the ones I gave at the top of the page
If you want to alter your 1 chord what are your options?
Well the dominant of Db is Ab and the third of Ab is C so the related diminihsed is C and if you lower each tone you get Ab diminished same as the Six chord so you already know what triads to use
try a 1-4 progresson Remember our four tones to build the triads on are
Ab, B ,D F,
Db Ab/ B, Eb Gb F# Ab/ Bb Eb F#
( I Dropped the Db to the low F# while I kept the AB the same in the left hand)
The next chord tone is D
Db Ab/ F#, A, D F# Bb/ F3, Ab, Db,
Db Ab / C, F, A, F#, Bb/ Db, F, Ab
As you see the amount of stuff you can come up with is amazing lets all the other chords work the same way
i will just give the related diminished chords for each of the scale degres
in the key of Db
Db related diminshed is C
Eb related dimished is D
F realted diminsyhed is E
Ab related diminshed is C
Bb related diminshied is A
C related diminihsed is Bb????
Was that last one a mistake no because in the key of Db the dominant of C is Gb because it is a half diminished chord by birghtright of course we alter it to be other things but it was born in the scale as a half diminished that is why i said to find the diminished from the dominant
so you can do this to any type of chord augmented chords
diminished chords
whatever try your own and
post up your own progression using this formula the possibilities are endless
We theory cats have to work hard to catch up all yall ear players out their Na mean this stuff will help turn those stale voicings into some real killer stuff
Fyi you can also do a run by playing two or three or all four of the triads over one shell I do it a lot on the Bb chord playing F, d, B and Ab over the Bb Ab shell in the left hand
I hope this all makes sense I would write out more progressioans but I want you to use your head to figure out the rest
God Bless
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This is a deep post. I'm gonna have to dig into this one. Hope to be back soon.
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I am glad you see the power of this stuff I learned it from Barry Harris He has a lot of concepts but this is the only one that stuck
You can also play one note from the related diminished over your chord for color
Play a Db major7 chord and play a chord tone from the related diminshed such as F#
so play the F# note in the right hand over the Db major 7 and then play a F# major7 and play the Ab inote which is borrowed from F# related diminished
ok i will shut up now
Thanks 4 his glory
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I'm always into learning theory behind things. I'm printing this out now, thanks for taking the time to post it...my brain hasn't prossesed it yet tho haha but I'm definately gonna look this over when I get home! Thanks
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Ima hafto print this one out too and try it when I get home....
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Im trying dis wen i get home Lets see if this works
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in the key of Db
Db related diminshed is C
Eb related dimished is D
F realted diminsyhed is E
Ab related diminshed is C
Bb related diminshied is A
C related diminihsed is Bb????
This should be G right/??
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No not G
Why?
Because the C chord in Db is usually a half diminished chord
remember there is no G in the Db scale the g is flatted to the F#
are you with me so the dominant of C half diminished is the Gb
so your shell voicing in your left hand could be C, F# and Bb against either an A triad or a C triad or a F# triad or a Eb triad
Now if you usually play your 7-3-6-2-5-1- progressions with the 7 as a regular minor chord without the flat 5 or you play it as a dominant chord then by all means Use a regular 5 and build your related diminished on that so
in our example if you were to play the C chord as a major or regular minor with a G natural in the chord then you would use G as the dominant and build the diminihsed on the B
I usully play my C chord as a half diminished so i would build my diminihsed chord on the third of F#
Remember it is all about the chord you are using look at F
the third scale tone of Db
I usually play that as an Augmented with a raised 5 f ,A ,C#, Eb,
so I would use the third of Db which is F and I would use the triads D,g.Bb Db
I know this sounds confusing but once you begin to do a chord or two it starts to make sense and you will even find some voicings you already use
for example the Ab tirad over the Bb we all use that one as a sus chord
or the Btriad over the Db shell we use that as a Seventh chod as we head to the F#
This is how I would use the 7-3-6
Using the notes of the A diminished chord
ist the Eb triad
C, Bb/ Eb G Bb F, A/ Eb, F3, A, C Bb Ab/ F, Ab, B, Db
The F# triad
C, Bb/ F#, Bb, Db, -- F, A, / Eb. A. Db ---- Bb Ab/ F, Ab, C, Eb
The A triad
C, Bb/ A, Db, E, F, A,/ A, C, Eb,, Bb, Ab, ? Ab, C, Db, F
C, Bb,/ C, E, G, -- F, A,/ C. Eb, F#, Bb, Ab/ Db, F, Ab
I hope this clears it up
if I used g as my Dominant You would use the triads built on the Bb diminsished
They sound nice too one that sounds good is the Etriad
C,Bb/ E, G#, B F, A,/ Eb, F#, A, C, Bb, F, C/ Eb, Ab, Db,
So you could use the G as your dominant on the C l
Thanks for digging into these
I appreciate your taking the time with my humble contribution
God Bless
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All I've got to say is, "Whoa!" I'm gonna need to be at my piano for all of this.
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Diverse, the line I highlighted was the "Ab", I wan't talking about the C chord. I don't see ho the Ab and the Db could be the same.
Ex
Db related diminshed is C
Ab related diminshed is C
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Sorry I ddnt realize
ok that is a good question and I wish I could answer it for you all I know is Barry taught that for Dominant chords (especially dominant chords in the scale) that you automaticlly use the diminished chord built on the third degree if you notice all the other chords were not originally dominant
So dominant chords use the diminished built on the third
they are the only exception to the formulae of looking for the dominant
what would you come up with if you used Eb as the dominant and used the G as the related diminished
you would get F#, A, C, Eb
my way is C is the related diminished but you dont have to lower the tones because they are already the ones you used
I guess that is what I forgot that the dominant chords the tones do not have to be lowered
thery are already set
I am confused now but take my word for it The chord tones you would use to build triads over the Ab shell are f# A, C, Eb
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I think you are right $ his Glory but this is why I am confused and not sure
this is the related movement on the V chord goping to the one
Ab F#/ A,C,E f#-- Ab F#/ B,D, F, Ab------Ab, F# / C, E F# A-----Db, Ab/ C, Eb, F, Ab
this is a 1-2-1 harmony movement using diminished instead of minor it is a block chord jazz thing and they use the what they call the important minor I guess it is the minor that preceeds the Tritone substitution of the V chord I am not clear on how this works But I tried using the G and It clearly has the notes We use Like the F# triad over the Ab And
But the B diminished has some important ones as well like the F triad over the Ab shell
and The D triad overthe Ab shell is important to so I may have to stick to my guns on Using the B diminished to build triads an but you have shown me that A diminished builds nice triads as well
That is the beauty of this formula it is limitless how many ways you can use it and get creative I mean look at the difference putting a Tritone sub has made it openecd up a brand new diminishd chord which brings with it four new sounds
not to mention the minor 6 chord which moves to the diminished
and when you put a drop 2and 3 to pn it it sounds even better Na mean
chck this out It is a V - I movement using A minor six and B diminished going to the Db major I did a drop 2 and 3 on the two chords
Ab, C, E, F#/ A, F#------Ab, D, F, F#/ B. Ab----Ab, Db, F, Ab/ C, Db, F
Be blessed
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Ok, I am completely befuddled.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :( :( :(
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Lemme see if I can repeat the essence of it - Diverse, check if this is right.
First of all, remember the scale degrees (in Db:): major(Db), minor(Eb), minor(F), major(Gb), major(Ab), minor(Bb), half-diminished(C)
To colour any of the chords above,
1. take the diatonic fifth. Which means the fifth in the chord listed above. Note that for all scale degrees (apart from the last one) it's a perfect fifth (for the last one is a flat fifth, or tritone). For instance, for the VI grade (Bb), the fifth is F.
2. take the major third of the new note (F), which is A (two tones up), and lower it by half a step (Ab). You get a minor third.
3. build a diminished chord out of that new note (Ab). It's Ab-B-D-F.
4. in your RH you can then use any of the four major triads (Ab:AbCEb, B:BEbGb, D:DF#A, F:FAC) built from the notes that make up that diminished chord to color a 'shell' voicing in your LH (a 'shell' voicing is the major7, dominant7 or diminished7 of the starting point). In this case, we started with Bb, which is a minor (see above) and therefore the shell should be a dominant7.
For instance, you can play, as Diverse said above, BbAb/BEbGb, which naturally leads into EbBb/BbEbGb (voice leading)
Did I come close?
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Dont worry about it bro it just sounds complicated but when you actually do it on the keyboard its easy
look at it this way
every chord has a related diminished chord this relative can offer notes to accent the given chord
so a c major chord has the B diminished as its relative if you took the b note from the relative you get a major 7 if you took the d from it you get an add nine chiord if you took the f you get a suspension if you took the Ab you get a flat 6
if you try this on your piano it will make sense so try it
now if you are with me so far each diminished chord has its onwn family of seventh chords by lowereing any tone of a diminished chord you get four possible seventh chords
b diminished is
B, D, F, Ab if you lower the B a half step
you have Bb7
try it
if you lower the D on a B diminished you get a Db7
if you lower the F on a B diminished you get E7
And if you lower the Ab on a B diminishd you get a G7
Again try this its the only way to see it
Ok if you are with me so far here is where my post started from
If you look at all the four possible seventh chords you have you have four possible triads based on these seventh chords that you can play over the chord that you first found the relative diminished from???
I know that sounds complicated but all I said was yoiu can play the E The Db The G and The Bb over C major chord
you have four slash chords
Bb/ C
Db/ C
E/C
G/C
so if you have that now what I said was that every chord has a related diminished so that you can find alternate harmonies for every chord
a basic rule of thumb is that
a mojor chords related diminished is found a half step below
a Minor chords diminished is also found a falf step below
a Dominant chords diminished is found on the third
oonce you find the related diminished you can either borrow a tone or two from the related diminished and play it with your parent chord and you have tensions and extensions right there or
you can go one step further and add the family of sevenths that belong to the diminished by lowering the notes of the related diminished
Now if you dont get this it is because you did not sit at your piano and try this or you dont know how to form diminished chords or you dont know what a seventh chord is
Thats ok find out and come back to this post It is a deep concept but not so deep that you cant get the idiea in a few well spent minutes
Finally the other idea I presented
was that of 1-2-1 harmony that we use in gospel all the time
this system uses a diminished chord instead of a minor
so in the key of c you would use this scale
C, D, E, F, G, Ab, B, C
and you would play 1-2-1 on the notes as you go up
C6-D dim-C6-D dim-C6--D dim etc
this creates movement so they and it allows you to connect the diminished chords
The possibilites are endless on how to use these conepts
as you see On my last post I did a tritone sub and did a 1-2-1 going from Ab to Db I used the A-6 because the Tritone of Ab is D
and A-6 leads to d I just headed toward the D using A-6 and B diminished and landed on the Db
while playing Ath Ab shell
Dont worry about all this mumbo jumbo
just under stand how to build ther related diminished and the family of sevenths I will keep putting up applications you will get it
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Lemme see if I can repeat the essence of it - Diverse, check if this is right.
First of all, remember the scale degrees (in Db:): major(Db), minor(Eb), minor(F), major(Gb), major(Ab), minor(Bb), half-diminished(C)
To colour any of the chords above,
1. take the diatonic fifth. Which means the fifth in the chord listed above. Note that for all scale degrees (apart from the last one) it's a perfect fifth (for the last one is a flat fifth, or tritone). For instance, for the VI grade (Bb), the fifth is F.
2. take the major third of the new note (F), which is A (two tones up), and lower it by half a step (Ab). You get a minor third.
3. build a diminished chord out of that new note (Ab). It's Ab-B-D-F.
4. in your RH you can then use any of the four major triads (Ab:AbCEb, B:BEbGb, D:DF#A, F:FAC) built from the notes that make up that diminished chord to color a 'shell' voicing in your LH (a 'shell' voicing is the major7, dominant7 or diminished7 of the starting point). In this case, we started with Bb, which is a minor (see above) and therefore the shell should be a dominant7.
For instance, you can play, as Diverse said above, BbAb/BEbGb, which naturally leads into EbBb/BbEbGb (voice leading)
Did I come close?
Even if he isn't close, I like this explaination of whatever this is supposed to be. ;D
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Diverse, that last exxplaination made more sense to me, but I still do not understand "how" to find this "relative diminished chord"
You said that in Db they are??
Db related diminshed is C
Eb related dimished is D
F realted diminsyhed is E
Ab related diminshed is C
Bb related diminshied is A
C related diminihsed is Bb
What about Gb???
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I agree with Elio... you can accomplish what Diverse is saying by playing a major triad on the dominant 7th, flatted 2nd, major 3rd, or perfect fifth of any major or minor scale note in the right hand, over one of the shells of the same note in the left.
The exception is the diminished scale, where you need to drop the dom 7th, flatted 2nd, major 3rd, or perfect fifth by an additional half step, before forming the triad.
That's what I get out of Diverse's post, and it does make some nice phat voices, although the flatted 2nd is a little bold for me! :D
This is easier for me to remember, than using the dominant method, and gives the same result, as far as I can tell.
Am I right somebody? :D
God bless,
eggs
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Diverse, that last exxplaination made more sense to me, but I still do not understand "how" to find this "relative diminished chord"
You said that in Db they are??
Db related diminshed is C
Eb related dimished is D
F realted diminsyhed is E
Ab related diminshed is C
Bb related diminshied is A
C related diminihsed is Bb
What about Gb???
4HG,
To a large extent it doesn't matter. C belongs in the same diminished as Gb - therefore you can pretty much swap them, in this context....
Diverse,
Great post! This really got us all thinking.... ;D
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First thing first The relative diministhed for the Gb is F
not c
your replies makes me feel for anyone who had to read mine because I felt like I was taking a test a big test
Second I am realy happy that you all took the time to digest this stuff and you all did real good better then I would have if I had to read this techinical jargon
I apologize for the complexity of the writing I dont know anyway to make it sound easier
third Elio was mostly correct except for you note to 4hisglorry about the C bieing related to the Gb
and Eggs was correct in there retelling of my approach
The Gb relative diminished is the F
So Elio is not entirely correctbut he has a very firm grasp of the material remember major chords relative is always a halfstep below the root so your available triads will be E ,G, Bb, Db
4hisglory
And Sjonothon I thought you were cool with me now you saying how i confused you and Elio explained it better yet you still dont understand I am deeply wounded :D
I hope I covered everything I think
Except one thing I want some of yall to bless me with how you would use some of these ideas in some progressions Especially you 4hisglory you need to do that for me
post a few I would like to hear what some of you big boys would use this information
Na Mean?
I wqould really be blessed by that thank you all
And
God Bless
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WHAAAATTTTTTT??? Wow, that's a lot to swallow............ya'll go 'head
As Celie says in The Color Purple: "I'm just gonna stand back and see what color the wall gonna be!" Which means............ya'll talking 12th grade and I'm in the 3rd grade.
Ain't the people/members of this site awesome?
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Eggs I re read what you said are you sure you have it?
If you do it right you automaticlly have four triads for each shell plus you have the four notes of the related diminished to borrow giving you 64 possible combinations
you over simplified it I think
I could be wrong if I am my apologies
Read what Elio wrote again because he doesent stop at the A he then lowered the A to Ab and built a diminished on the Ab and that gave him four triads to put over the left hand shell
and each chord of the scale can be treated like that except the cord built on the seventh degree of the scale because it has a flat five
I like Eloios explanation too it is shorter and you can follow it a little easier
and it is right on the money
Elio drop a progression on a brother let me hear what you can do with this
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My apologies Eggs you are correct I had to read it like ten times You said dominant seventh instead of flatted seventh that is what threw me but let me show you something
you said the the flat 2nd is too bold I trhink I can show you where it sounds smooth In the key of Bb
Lets say you are about to end and you want to go to the G to set up the 2-5-1 back to Bb
try this
F/F, Bb, D -- D, F#/ F# Bb C, Eb --- G/ F,A,Bb, D
Then you go to your 2-5-1
I used a minor 6 chord on the Flat 2nd of D intead of a if you think diminshed on the flat second it works for all chords except the dominant chord dominant chords must use the diminished on its own third and it uses a minor 6 on the flat 2nd
This same configuration can be p;ayed ove the Bb note as well
try this
Bb/ F, A, C, D, Bb/ F# Bb C, Eb go back and forth slowly four beats each then do a 7-3-6- and do another vamp like I did below
A/ G, A, C, Eb---- D/ F#, Bb, D, Eb
G/ A, A, B, D, ----D/ F# Bb, C, Eb repeat three times
This comes from Thad Jones A child is Born
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Now we're talking!!! Thank you for this thread diverse379. If you don't hear from me it's because I'm busy trying to digest this.
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Diverse,
I'm with ya.... I'll try it out when I get home on the board tonight. This looks like a great example.
Keep it comin'. :)
I'll holla. :D
Question: The major/minor triad thing is a matter of taste with this?
Eggs
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Got your question Eggs
I guess anything is tasters choice like Melvin Crispell says but
what I gave you is a small piece to a bigger puzzle so if you want to stay within Barry's concept dominant chords play a shell against a minor 6 chord a half step up he calls it the important monor because it is the minor that leads to the dominant chords tritone
the tritone of D7 is Ab 7 and Eb-7 leads to Ab7 so you can play the Eb-6 against the D7 shell and you can also do 1-2-1- moves from eb-6 and F diminished
Oh no Not again too complicated
here play this and you will see why it is not a matter of taste
hold D and C in your left hand while your right hand goes up the Eb minor scale in 1-2-1 harmony (the 2 is diminished )
Eb, F#, Bb, C, -- F, Ab, B, D, -- F#, Bb, C, Eb,-- Ab, B, D, F,--- Bb, C, Eb,F#,
This is real basic he does all kinds of tricks with this stuff that Yo u just have to hear
but you can hear how well that goes together because the Ab is the tritone
I wish I knew and under stood it more but as I digest it I will shae it thank you for your patience and interest
D C/ Eb F# Bb C---
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diverse379: I have been studying your post for a few days, and while trying to use it I came up with what I think is a shortcut to your formula. Would I be correct if I said you could go down a whole step from the chord you want to color and build a diminished chord off of that, except for the seventh degree (which is half-diminished already) where you would go down a step and a half? I wrote this out over a few keys and it seems to hold up. I know theory basics but I've only been playing piano for 7 months (I'm a bassist) so I could be missing something from your explanation. Am I right on this analysis?
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To music man
You are correct when itr comes to lminor7 and major 7 chords
but not when you are talking about the dominant chord the dominant chords diminished is found on the the third degree of the chord
I believe that is why it was explained that way ( the complicated way)
I know there are easier ways to look at it or shortcuts to understanding it
but you miss the bigger picture the family of diminished chords I presented is one of several concepts Barry Harris uses so it is mportant when learning any system to learn it as it is before any shortcuts are taken
But for now I suppose it is best for people to learn it the way they can but do you see how
Now when I first learned the system I used to play two or three of the Triads over a shell as a run and end up on the next chord in the progression
like if I was going from F to Bb to Eb-7 I would play F triad D triad and B triad over the Bb shell end then go to my Eb-7
And i thought that was alll to it but it is called the family for a reason and It will be revealed as you further explore the concepts
Try to see it for the dominant chordthe diminished is coming from for that will show you what scale to use over the chord
if you just look at it as a whole step down you lose half of the science
look at it this way
If i ask you what family belongs to F# major 7 in the key of c# you would say using your formula use the triads built on each note of E but if I said what chords do those triads move to or what scalses do you play over any of those you may say Wa????
now with the method I learned and presented I would say well the dominant chord of F#maj7 is Db (Thats one scale to use) and its Diminished is found on the Third which is f ( THATS ANOTHER SCALE THE f DIMINISHED SCALE)
and since f is my diminihsed the f diminished belongs to Eb sou can harmonize using Eb minor using 1-2-1
you can also do a 1-4 progression in Eb minor over the F#major
F#, Bb/ Eb, Ab, C, ----Db, F#, Bb-
you can alo do a 5 of 5 the Db is the 5 of F# and the Ab is the % of Db so you can play F3 diminished to f diminihed and resolve on the F3 major
F# Db/ F# A, C, Eb, ---F, Ab, B, D, -----F, F3, Bb, Db
there is so much more that I dont know yet but a lot of the small mobvements that sound so pretty
I am just saying that there is a lot more to this system then learning some accents to your voicings
What about the concept of borrowing
take that same F3 major chord the Major 7 on the F# which is that F natural was borrowed from its related diminished when you play an Ab ( the ninth) on the F# you are borrowing a note from its diminished
And the diminshed belongs to Eb minor
so I can get this move
F#, Db/ Ab------Ab, D/ Bb----Bb, Eb/B---B, F,/ Db-----Bb, Ab/Bb Db, F
How did I get that?
My not taking a short cut but looking at where these chords come from and how they are reslated
Trust me I dont know anything about this system but I can explore it because I understand its basic rules But to be honest when I first learned it I di what everone did I looked for an Easier way to understand it and in Doing it Inever understood it
It wasnt until I put up this post that I really began to understand the wisdom of relating everything to the dominant chord
If you can understand the basic rules there is no need to find the short cut if you could come up with that method you explained to me you can look at it the more complicated way
using the dominants but that is the way that reveals the science of the chord changes you are a bass player you know how important the cycle of 5hs are '
you can do a whole run using two boxes one fret apart going from low to high thats the cycle right
Dominants are important our music sopins on it.
I hOpe I did not preach too much
I thank you for taking the time To learn This concept I shared
I hope it blesses you and your ministry
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To music man
You are correct when itr comes to lminor7 and major 7 chords
but not when you are talking about the dominant chord the dominant chords diminished is found on the the third degree of the chord
I believe that is why it was explained that way ( the complicated way)
I know there are easier ways to look at it or shortcuts to understanding it
but you miss the bigger picture the family of diminished chords I presented is one of several concepts Barry Harris uses so it is mportant when learning any system to learn it as it is before any shortcuts are taken
But for now I suppose it is best for people to learn it the way they can but do you see how
Now when I first learned the system I used to play two or three of the Triads over a shell as a run and end up on the next chord in the progression
like if I was going from F to Bb to Eb-7 I would play F triad D triad and B triad over the Bb shell end then go to my Eb-7
And i thought that was alll to it but it is called the family for a reason and It will be revealed as you further explore the concepts
Try to see it for the dominant chordthe diminished is coming from for that will show you what scale to use over the chord
if you just look at it as a whole step down you lose half of the science
look at it this way
If i ask you what family belongs to F# major 7 in the key of c# you would say using your formula use the triads built on each note of E but if I said what chords do those triads move to or what scalses do you play over any of those you may say Wa????
now with the method I learned and presented I would say well the dominant chord of F#maj7 is Db (Thats one scale to use) and its Diminished is found on the Third which is f ( THATS ANOTHER SCALE THE f DIMINISHED SCALE)
and since f is my diminihsed the f diminished belongs to Eb sou can harmonize using Eb minor using 1-2-1
you can also do a 1-4 progression in Eb minor over the F#major
F#, Bb/ Eb, Ab, C, ----Db, F#, Bb-
you can alo do a 5 of 5 the Db is the 5 of F# and the Ab is the % of Db so you can play F3 diminished to f diminihed and resolve on the F3 major
F# Db/ F# A, C, Eb, ---F, Ab, B, D, -----F, F3, Bb, Db
there is so much more that I dont know yet but a lot of the small mobvements that sound so pretty
I am just saying that there is a lot more to this system then learning some accents to your voicings
What about the concept of borrowing
take that same F3 major chord the Major 7 on the F# which is that F natural was borrowed from its related diminished when you play an Ab ( the ninth) on the F# you are borrowing a note from its diminished
And the diminshed belongs to Eb minor
so I can get this move
F#, Db/ Ab------Ab, D/ Bb----Bb, Eb/B---B, F,/ Db-----Bb, Ab/Bb Db, F
How did I get that?
My not taking a short cut but looking at where these chords come from and how they are reslated
Trust me I dont know anything about this system but I can explore it because I understand its basic rules But to be honest when I first learned it I di what everone did I looked for an Easier way to understand it and in Doing it Inever understood it
It wasnt until I put up this post that I really began to understand the wisdom of relating everything to the dominant chord
If you can understand the basic rules there is no need to find the short cut if you could come up with that method you explained to me you can look at it the more complicated way
using the dominants but that is the way that reveals the science of the chord changes you are a bass player you know how important the cycle of 5hs are '
you can do a whole run using two boxes one fret apart going from low to high thats the cycle right
Dominants are important our music sopins on it.
I hOpe I did not preach too much
I thank you for taking the time To learn This concept I shared
I hope it blesses you and your ministry
Anybody got the crib notes to this book up hea? :D
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to Sjonathon
SSHHHH
I dont want anyone to know I am long winded
-
From now on I will put my chord examples at the bottom or top of my posts so anyone who just wants to hear what I am talking about can get right to it
I aim to please :D
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Hey Diverse,
Thanks for your posts. I follow you. I like the idea of moving in different scales in each hand.... and I guess that's why
this is so interesting to me. Using a minor6th on the flatted 2nd as a pass to the tritone substitution is deep man! :D
Can you give me another example of a well known song that I might know? (Unfortunately, I don't know the Thad one)
Keep it comin',
God bless,
eggs
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From now on I will put my chord examples at the bottom or top of my posts so anyone who just wants to hear what I am talking about can get right to it
I aim to please :D
Wanna really please?
Do a video of this concept (I'm a visual learner). Talk slow, and if you explain while doing, then you can be as long-winded as you'd like. ;D
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Sjonathon
Thats a very good Idea If and when I get a video camera I will try it I may need some help putting it together but I am sure some of you will help me
Thank you I knew you were alright you had me wondering for a moment though
;D
Eggs A song that is close in idea to the thad Jones song is He'll meet my needs or God Will Suopply on the Potters house albulm
not exactly the same but they do a nice 7-3-6 2-1/5 3-6 2-5-1 at the end
and I use the exact changes from the thad jones song to play it
But Remember all of you who appreciate this stuff I am presenting It I am Just learning it Too and I learned it in a jazz context on corny old songs from the 30,s so I would really like to see how you guys are applying it
I am starting to feel neglected Eggs
???
Why oh why have you all abandoned me to be left out in the cold searching for truth in my congretations ear.
;D
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searching for truth in my congretations ear
That sounds like the gecco lizard! ;) :D
I'll try to come up with somethin', but I'm new to this too!
Eggs
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LMHO ;D
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While I was looking at this on the board this weekend, I noticed that C diminished and Gb diminished are the same chord.
So in terms of what the official related diminished chord is for Ab is concerned, I don't think it matters because you'll end
up with the same triads no matter which note you use, namely ... C,Eb,Gb,A.
And in addition, I also noticed this... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is major in the key that you are
playing in, then you can use a major third to find the diminished family... and likewise, if the dominant of the chord is
minor in the base key, than you can use a minor third to find the diminished family:
I'll stay with the key of C#, like the rest of the thread... if we are voicing Ab, we take the dominant which is Eb... now,
Eb is minor in the original key of C#, so we take a minor third, which is Gb... and this gives us the related diminished family...
now, if we wanted to voice C#, we take the dominant, which is Ab... and since Ab is major in the key of C#, we then take
a major third, which gives us the diminished family of C.
Diverse, I noticed in this thread, that you seemed unsure of when to lower notes on the third of the dominant when
finding the related diminished family... well using the method I mentioned, I find that I don't need to lower any notes at all...
the major or minor third rule gives you the diminished family of roots on which you build your right hand triads without lowering
any notes... try it. ;)
And then, there's one more thing that I noticed... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is minor is the base
key, then you can use the major third of the root of the chord you are voicing to find the diminished notes... so look at
Ab in the key of C# again... the dominant of Ab is Eb, and since Eb is minor in the key of C#, we can use the major third
of Ab to find the diminished notes... the major third of Ab is C... and even though we can say that the relative diminished
family of Ab is Gb by the dominant method above, C diminished is still in that family, as I stated in the beginning of the post...
and therefore we end up with the same family of notes to build the triads on... now look at C#, the tonic... we've already
determined earlier that the related diminished of C# is C using the dominant method, with Ab being the dominant of C#...
now, since Ab is major in the key of C#, we cannot use the major third of C# to find the diminished family... let's try it...
the major third of C# is F, and F is not in the C diminished family... so the shortcut appears to work only when the dominant
of the chord being voiced is minor is the base key that you're playing in... ;)
So there you have it... and I'm no expert... in fact, I'm a beginner in theory... studying to show myself approved unto God...
So Diverse, and all ya'll... am I way off track, or is this making sense to somebody? ;D
God bless,
Eggs
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While I was looking at this on the board this weekend, I noticed that C diminished and Gb diminished are the same chord.
So in terms of what the official related diminished chord is for Ab is concerned, I don't think it matters because you'll end
up with the same triads no matter which note you use, namely ... C,Eb,Gb,A.
And in addition, I also noticed this... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is major in the key that you are
playing in, then you can use a major third to find the diminished family... and likewise, if the dominant of the chord is
minor in the base key, than you can use a minor third to find the diminished family:
I'll stay with the key of C#, like the rest of the thread... if we are voicing Ab, we take the dominant which is Eb... now,
Eb is minor in the original key of C#, so we take a minor third, which is Gb... and this gives us the related diminished family...
now, if we wanted to voice C#, we take the dominant, which is Ab... and since Ab is major in the key of C#, we then take
a major third, which gives us the diminished family of C.
Diverse, I noticed in this thread, that you seemed unsure of when to lower notes on the third of the dominant when
finding the related diminished family... well using the method I mentioned, I find that I don't need to lower any notes at all...
the major or minor third rule gives you the diminished family of roots on which you build your right hand triads without lowering
any notes... try it. ;)
And then, there's one more thing that I noticed... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is minor is the base
key, then you can use the major third of the root of the chord you are voicing to find the diminished notes... so look at
Ab in the key of C# again... the dominant of Ab is Eb, and since Eb is minor in the key of C#, we can use the major third
of Ab to find the diminished notes... the major third of Ab is C... and even though we can say that the relative diminished
family of Ab is Gb by the dominant method above, C diminished is still in that family, as I stated in the beginning of the post...
and therefore we end up with the same family of notes to build the triads on... now look at C#, the tonic... we've already
determined earlier that the related diminished of C# is C using the dominant method, with Ab being the dominant of C#...
now, since Ab is major in the key of C#, we cannot use the major third of C# to find the diminished family... let's try it...
the major third of C# is F, and F is not in the C diminished family... so the shortcut appears to work only when the dominant
of the chord being voiced is minor is the base key that you're playing in... ;)
So there you have it... and I'm no expert... in fact, I'm a beginner in theory... studying to show myself approved unto God...
So Diverse, and all ya'll... am I way off track, or is this making sense to somebody? ;D
God bless,
Eggs
I don't know about anyone else, but can you do me a favor?.....
Put your example in progression format. It may be easier for us visual folks to understand what you're saying.
Thanks,
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Sjonathon
All due respect Eggs was sending this because I asked for it The theory behind it is what helps us get to the progression examples
I dont want to just see the progression I am interested in the thought process behind it.
Dont worry eggs keep it coming And I thank you for sharing didnt even read it yet because I had to respond to sjonathon first
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Sjonathon
All due respect Eggs was sending this because I asked for it The theory behind it is what helps us get to the progression examples
I dont want to just see the progression I am interested in the thought process behind it.
Dont worry eggs keep it coming And I thank you for sharing didnt even read it yet because I had to respond to sjonathon first
Diverse,
while I can understand what you're saying and attempting to do, are you saying that, as a teacher, you can't do both? Apply the theory while posting the progression?
Just asking.
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No Sjonathon you are right it would be helpful to do both its just that Eggs was the first one to really try to bring something back to the table and I felt bad because you berated him so vicisously
but you are right it was hard to figure out.
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While I was looking at this on the board this weekend, I noticed that C diminished and Gb diminished are the same chord.
So in terms of what the official related diminished chord is for Ab is concerned, I don't think it matters because you'll end
up with the same triads no matter which note you use, namely ... C,Eb,Gb,A.
Ok, I can understand this seeing as how all that's really talking about here is inversions, right? So, not only could it be a C dim or Gb dim, but it could also be an Eb dim or an A dim, yes?
And in addition, I also noticed this... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is major in the key that you are
playing in, then you can use a major third to find the diminished family... and likewise, if the dominant of the chord is
minor in the base key, than you can use a minor third to find the diminished family:
I'll stay with the key of C#, like the rest of the thread... if we are voicing Ab, we take the dominant which is Eb... now,
Eb is minor in the original key of C#, so we take a minor third, which is Gb... and this gives us the related diminished family...
now, if we wanted to voice C#, we take the dominant, which is Ab... and since Ab is major in the key of C#, we then take
a major third, which gives us the diminished family of C.
Ok, here I was thrown for a good minute, but I'll share what I think I understand. In relation to Db (since we're talking flats, even though C#/Db are enharmonic), if I want to voice an Ab7 chord, I can use the third degree of this Ab chord and use it's diminished family, right? Here's my question, where am I going next? Can I, for example, do this:
in Db
Ab Eb Gb/ A C Eb Gb
Db Ab/ C Eb F Ab
In addition, if one wanted to voice a Db chord, couldn't they simply make F (the third degree of the Db scale) diminished? So, you would get this:
Db Ab B/ F Ab B D
Diverse, I noticed in this thread, that you seemed unsure of when to lower notes on the third of the dominant when
finding the related diminished family... well using the method I mentioned, I find that I don't need to lower any notes at all...
the major or minor third rule gives you the diminished family of roots on which you build your right hand triads without lowering
any notes... try it. ;)
I can agree with this statement.
And then, there's one more thing that I noticed... if the dominant of the chord that you are voicing is minor is the base
key, then you can use the major third of the root of the chord you are voicing to find the diminished notes... so look at
Ab in the key of C# again... the dominant of Ab is Eb, and since Eb is minor in the key of C#, we can use the major third
of Ab to find the diminished notes... the major third of Ab is C... and even though we can say that the relative diminished
family of Ab is Gb by the dominant method above, C diminished is still in that family, as I stated in the beginning of the post...
and therefore we end up with the same family of notes to build the triads on... now look at C#, the tonic... we've already
determined earlier that the related diminished of C# is C using the dominant method, with Ab being the dominant of C#...
now, since Ab is major in the key of C#, we cannot use the major third of C# to find the diminished family... let's try it...
the major third of C# is F, and F is not in the C diminished family... so the shortcut appears to work only when the dominant
of the chord being voiced is minor is the base key that you're playing in... ;)
Ok, for this one, if it is true, which I don't believe it to be (to my limited, but ever-growing knowledge, I'm going to need Jack Bauer and the rest of CTU to help me decipher this code.
I'm out; my head hurts, I think
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No Sjonathon you are right it would be helpful to do both its just that Eggs was the first one to really try to bring something back to the table and I felt bad because you berated him so vicisously
but you are right it was hard to figure out.
Uh, I didn't berate him at all. I was simply asking a question.
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NO NO Sjonoathon
Here are the chords again Eggs had it wrong
Db uses triads B, D, F, Ab
Eb, uses triads DB E, G, Bb
F uses triads Eb, Gb, A, C,
F# uses triads E, G, Bb Db
Ab uses Triads B, D, F, Ab
Bb uses B, D, F, Ab
C uses A, F#, C, Eb
the above notes next to the chord is the family ofseventh chords or triads that you can superimpose over the shells I already did all the lowering and everything else
so you dont have to sit and try to figure everything out
Sorry If I misunderstood you sometimes it is hard to catch the intent correctly from a typed message my bad
But Eggs in an atempt to figure this thing out made a serious error hes way will not allow you to fully use the rest of the system
there is more to come so Please if you want to understand it dont try to find the short cut
simply go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten
build a diminished on its third\ degree
then lower that diminished chord a half step
thats it three steps and you have your family of sevenths
the only exception is with a dominant chord you go to its third not to its dominant for the relative diminished chord then you lower it like you did the major and minor chords
So in any scale the fifth degree is a dominant chord this chord is the exception
you go to its third not to its dominant
that is all there is to it
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sJonathan,
Sorry, I'm still working on some good examples, and I understand that you were just asking a question! ... no prob! ;)
Yes, I was talking about inversions on the first point. The notes are just roots of the same diminished chord.
On your second question regarding Db, I would say no because the chord you are voicing (Db) is the same as the tonic
of the key you are playing in.... in other words the rule says to use the dominant of the chord, which is Ab, and Ab is
major in the key of Db, so you take the major third of Ab, which is C, to get the diminished family... so then you can
see that F, which is the major third of Db, is not in that family... that's why I believe that you can only use the major
third of the root chord when the dominant of the chord is minor is the key you are playing in..
i.e. In the key of Db:
If you are voicing Db (the tonic):
Ab is the dominant of Db, and Ab is major in the key of Db, so you CAN'T use the major third of Db to get the dim. family...
you have to use the normal (dominant-->3rd of dominant) method
If you are voicing Bb (the sixth of Db):
F is the dominant of Bb, and F is minor in the key of Db, so you CAN use the major third of Bb to get the dim. family...
the major third of Bb is D, which gives you the same diminished family as the (dominant-->3rd of dominant) method...
in other words... F is the dominant of Bb, F is minor in Db, so take the minor third of F, which is Ab... and you can see
that Ab diminished (Ab,B,D,F) contains the major third of Bb, or D... Ab diminished and D diminished are inversions of each
other, so they represent the same root notes to build the triads on ... see? ... the "major third of the root" thing is just
a shortcut to what Diverse what saying, depending on what chord you are voicing, and in what scale...
I hope I've cleared up my explanation... keep in mind that I could be totally wrong about all of this.... I'm not trying to teach it,
I'm just trying to see if other people think what I'm discovering is valid.... that's all... (or think I'm discovering)
Oh, and I apologize for making your head hurt! ;)
HTH,
Eggs
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It is a little hard to read but
Sjonathon you didnt have to bite the brother's head off
anyway Eggs I think you are doing something very different you may be coming up with nice sounds which is good but it is not the system that Barry teaches
Ab7 has the C diminished as its relative diminished and the family that belongs to C diminished ( to build the triads on ) are B, D, F, Ab so whayt did you do
A uses a A-6 chord over the Ab
Ab/ F#, A, C#, E
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Db uses triads B, D, F, Ab
Eb, uses triads Db E, G, Bb
F uses triads Eb, Gb, A, C,
F# uses triads E, G, Bb Db
Ab uses Triads B, D, F, Ab
Bb uses B, D, F, Ab
C uses A, F#, C, Eb
1. simply go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten
2. build a diminished on its third degree
3. then lower that diminished chord a half step
thats it three steps and you have your family of sevenths
Ok, here's where I'm confused, in terms of how to build these chords. And again, "theorists" WHY is one doing this? What is the point and purpose of all of this???
Let's take a new key, let's do F. Now, according to your "3 step process", all one has to do is:
1. Go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten . I want to phatten the tonic F.
2. Build a diminished on its third degree. The third degree of F is A; so the diminished of A is A C Eb Gb, correct? Which are also the keys that you used in the key of Db (refer to quoted post by Diverse)
3. Then lower that diminished chord a half step. Now, here is what I don't understand. Why does one lower the diminished chord, AND where are the results of that in your example in Db? According to your 3 step process, you only did steps 1 & 2.
I digress, if one completes your 3 step process, then in our new key of F, lowering the A diminished chord would give us an Ab diminished chord. A C Eb Gb to Ab B D F.
How wrong am I so far?
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Hi Sjonathon Well it looks like you put a lot of work into this so I hope my answer clears it up for you.
Why do I do this
because it can give you chordal runs and new chords to play in place of the ones you usually use
passing corhds approach chords or new chords to insert in your progressions
I wish I kniew how to set up a midi file I could play an example of how I use this
now on to your question and your post
The first thing You want to phatten F right?
so you need to go to the dominant of F whchi is C
and then do everything else you said in your post
go to the third of C
build a diminish on that C which is E
Then lower that diminish a half step
Now you asked why do this step
do you know what a seventh chord is?
if you do then this answer will make sense
if you look at any diminish chord it has four notes any four of those notes can be lowered a half step to produce a 7th chord
Look at the E diminished which is the relative diminished of F
( by the way the relative dimished can give your tonic chord A major 7
a nine, A suspension and a flat 13 note
so a lot of tenisons can be made from the relative diminieshed.
to get back to my point
look at E diminsihed if you lower just the e a hlaf step you get Eb7
if you lower the G a half step on e diminished you get F#7
if you lower the Bb a half step in E diminished you get A 7
if you lower the Db a half step in E diminshed you get C7
what does this mean it means that in place of a diminished chord you can play any one of these 7th chords
It also means that since the diminshed chord E gives F many extended chord tones you can super impose any one of the 7th chord family over the given chord tone to produce a new tonal color.
Later on I will give new ways to use these chords and principles but for now
you have at least 8 new chord sounds to put over an F chord many you some you may already play
but others you may not so without knowing anything else about theory you can produce many advanced chords that you never would have before
Now I use them a little differently I make runs out of playing all the four triads in a row over the tonic chord to produce a four chord run whcih leads me to the next chord lets use
F since you went there play this 6-2-5-1
I am using the method to pahtten my D chord but a
i am going to use all the availabe triads from the family for d
play the first four chords as Quarter notes one beat each then play the next three chords as half notes (two beats each)
DC/ AC#E
DC/ F$ Bb Db
DC/Eb G Bb
DC/ CEG
GD/ Bb D, F
F#/ Ab Db, F
F/ E G A C
Note the last chord which is a major nine got its major 7 and its nine from the related diminished
I really hoped this helped you I see you really put some time into figuring this out when I first put it up you said you were clueless and now you seem to have the basic concept down you just left out the first step of leaving out the diminished
Finally The list I posted last was given because I was just giving you the list of family for each scale tone I already did all the steps for you.
But it was meaningless right because you didnt know how I got them so then how would you build your own. in new keys
when it comes to theory either you under stand the whole concept and utilize it or understand some of it and un=dre utilize it or misuse it.
I hope this helps
God Bless you
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Looks like I mis-used it a bit... but I think I have it now.
Diverse,
I will try and post some progressions to see if I am doing this right, once I get home later.
I guess I was looking for too many shorcuts, and I was also unsure of the difference between
the "relative diminished" and the "diminished chord family", which, by your explanation is a
half step lower, right?
Sjonathan,
I hope his last explanation helps you as much as it helped me. :)
I'll be back...
Thanks,
God bless,
Eggs
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The first thing You want to phatten F right?
so you need to go to the dominant of F whchi is C
and then do everything else you said in your post
go to the third of C
build a diminish on that C which is E
Then lower that diminish a half step
Are you saying that you're only going to lower one note or all of the notes? Using your example:
E G Bb Db to Eb G Bb Db
OR
E G Bb Db to Eb Gb A C
If you're saying the last one, then that makes sense AND sounds better.
But, you still really haven't answered my question for me in terms of where I can go AFTER playing this super-wonderfurific chord. ;)
And, as for your 6-2-5-1 example, aren't you just using variations of the two, and a tri-tone sub for the 5 and then the 1?
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Ok I see you are real close
The first one Eb G Bb Db
and all the three were giiven just to illustrate where the lowered diminished chord came from
I was showing you how we got to this family of seventh chords so you could see it was a process and the whole lowering thing is not a waste of time but an important step
you say I did not show you how these can be used
Why not you give me a progression that you play
but if you go back to my original post i gave several examples of how you would or could use these
but why dont you give me a four chord progresson of your own And i will apply this concept to your progression
As far as my 6-2-5-1 you asked me was i using variaions of the two
I dont think so The two is Gninor And i played four triads A, F#, Eb, And CI was playing all four triads from the family of 7ths A, F# Eb And C which all came from the family.
and yes the Last chord was a tritone sub but it was also in the family of sevenths And that is what makes this system so powerful you already have tritone substitution built into the mix you have the sus chord built into the mix you have the dominant three built into the mix and the regular dominant chord
so without knowing a lot of theory this system can give a new player who maybe only knows the four basic chords a way to really jump start his playing
So give me a progression you use and give me a chord that you want me to apply this system to and I will see what I can do
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Ok, I think we're getting somewhere. For me (and my ear at this point), some of these chord variations are really dissonant. Since I'm not there yet, I'll try to give you an example of how I would use them.
In Eb
a 2-5 walkup
F/ B Eb F Ab
G/ Bb Eb G
Ab/ B Eb F Ab
Bb/ Bb Eb F G
C/ Bb Db E G
F C Eb/ A Db E Gb
Bb F Ab/ B D G
Eb Bb/ Bb Eb F G
So, let's go from here and see how this works. For me, it just seems like because the notes in the C diminished are the same as in the Eb dim, what can't I simply use that thought process. So far, the only chord that I wouldn't have thought to play (and which I don' t like the sound of) is the F#7 chord.
-
I Wanted you to give me the basic pogression and I would add the concept to it but I will take the @-5 walk up in that key using that flat 5 minor chord
I will keep the integrity of the progression and ad color to he Bb chord once it changes over to the dominant
so lets take it from
Bb/ Bb, Db, E, G
F/ B Eb F Ab
G/ Bb Eb G
Ab/ B Eb F Ab
Bb/ Bb Eb F G
C/ Bb Db E G
FCEb/ G,Bb, Eb
Bb D/ Ab, D, E
Bb, F,/ G, B, D Or Eb,F (G, B, D) note the left F is a nine interval not a 2
Eb, G,/ G, Bb, Eb,
What I did was color the Bb and ai also colored the Eb chord a little using one of the family the family for the 1 and the 5 were the same family
My available choice were E G, Bb Db since We were on a 5 chord I did not want to use the Db because it would have made it minor and the Bb would have been redundant
but there are times when I would have used the Db for example if I wanted to go to the Ab chord I would have played the Db over Bb to the Db over Eb to the Ab chord
Bb/ Db, F, Ab,
Eb, Db, F, Ab,
Ab, C, Eb, F, Ab
Which is a simple 2- 5-1 I know but its chord structure is taken right from our family of sevenths do you see the power of this You of cours must experiment with what works where and when but what a tool to have access to
you are right all the chords will not always be soi great sounding because it is all about where they are going
The example I gave you of the run you can look at it as Eb diminished if you want as long as you know where it came from which is the third of its dominant and then lowered
As far as your comment on the dissonance I dont use the full seventh chords for that same reason because the inclusion of the seventh is hard to manage so I use triads they are more user friendly you could even use one note or two notes from the triad its up to you they are just tones that you can add to your taste
like what if you used just the F# and Bb over the D C shell in that 6-2-5- 1 example i gave
DC/ F# Bb
G, Bb/ F, Bb
CBb/ E, C,
F,A,/G,A,C
It doesent sound so dissonant now does it
You have made great strides and you may not know it yet but you have a very powerful tool in your arsenal I learned this two years ago and only recently began to realize the power of it especially when you use it in conjucntion with the other concpets Barry Harris teaches
Let me know what you think of the changes I gave you
Dc
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Ok, so I'm gonna check these chords tonight when I get home. I'll let you know later tonight.
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Diverse,
The related diminished chords don't change for each scale, right?
The related diminished for Db will always be C in every scale? .... unless it's the dominant, and
then it would be F? Is that right?
Eggs
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Diverse,
The related diminished chords don't change for each scale, right?
The related diminished for Db will always be C in every scale? .... unless it's the dominant, and
then it would be F? Is that right?
Eggs
This is the other thing that I don't understand. I don't get related dim vs. dim family
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There you go looking for short cuts again eggs
but you are rght the relative diminished for Db major and minor will be C
The rlated diminished if for Db7 will be f
and for Db half diminished it will be Bb
To Sjopnathon
what dont you understand why do we need to find it or know it or how to use it or
I will tell you
First the related diminished can always be used to preceed the chord its related to so if you wanted to land on Db you can preceed it with C diminihsed
second if you wanted to harmonize a melody and you were on the one chord you could use the one chord and its relatated diminished to harmonize the melody (this works well when the melody moves in steps
Like this
move using Cminor and its relative diminished
GC/Eb, A
F, B/D, Ab
Eb, A/C,G
D,Ab/B,F
C,G/ A, Eb
Third And I know I said this before
You can borrow notes from the relateive diminished to add to your chords
and you can borrow notes from the major chord to play over the diminished
keep the questions coming because I am about to take this to the next ;eve;
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Quick question, Diverse,
When you use commas, is that to indicate playing the notes separately?
It makes a difference when trying to read your posts
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No I dont mean it that way I do that for ease of reading
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No I dont mean it that way I do that for ease of reading
Well, it's not easier, just confusing. Ok, so I've played the chords you posted, and I don't see much of a difference (and I didn't like the sound of the Bb D/ Ab D E chord, but I'm probably missing something.
What is the biggest difference between the related vs. the relative diminished?
Also, one of these dims (related or relative) can be made simply by going from the dominant 7th and call it a day, yes? For example:
Bb F Ab/B D F Ab (although, truth be told, I don't like to repeat notes unless it's truly necessary)
So, if what I'm saying is true, then:
a. which dim are we talking about
b. where am I going next when I use whichever dim we're talking about.
My reason for letter 'b' is because some of these chords sound better going to a minor rather than a major.
And, now which dim is this and how would I use it; where would I go?:
Bb F Ab/A C Eb Gb
Now, I can see using this chord and going to an Eb min7 chord; or using a variation of the above chord
Bb F/ Ab7 or
Bb F/ B7 or
Bb F/ D7 or
Bb F/ F7 or
and then go to an Eb min7 chord.
Am I any closer to getting this?
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Bb, Ab/ A C Eb Gb as you wrote
this is the related diminished But i do not use this as a chord like it is written by you above Those are available notes that can be superimposed along with the notes of a Bb-7 not even the dominant 7 as you have it written my examples were in Db
even in the key of f it would be a Bb major 7 not a Bb7
Its used in many other ways but I was not advocating that that be used as a chord
Bb F Ab/ Ab B D F
these are the roots of the family of seventh chords you rote them like a chord but I dont play that as a chord
the notes to the right of the slash are the available triads or seventh chords that you can apply over that shel
those are notes not chords they are not written to be played as individual notes they are written to show you the availabvle chords when you see me write something out like you did above that is a chord
I never wrote what you did above
Look at this list again it answers all the questions you asked me
Db uses triads B, D, F, Ab
Eb, uses triads Db E, G, Bb
F uses triads Eb, Gb, A, C,
F# uses triads E, G, Bb Db
Ab uses Triads B, D, F, Ab
Bb uses B, D, F, Ab
C uses A, F#, C, Eb
1. simply go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten
2. build a diminished on its third degree
3. then lower that diminished chord a half step
thats it three steps and you have your family of sevenths
all the questions that you have aslked me are contained right here if you insist on looking for a shorter way to understand this then you are just causing yourself confusion
sorry you didnt like the chords I guess it is not for everyone
but the notes are correct the
I wrote you a chart you really should read that all the chords are listed
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OK... here are a couple of progressions I came up with.... the notes I bolded are using the Barry Harris stuff ...
everything is in the key of Db...
LH/RH
Db F Ab / Db F Ab
C Ab / C Eb Ab
Bb F / Eb Ab Db ---- quartal
Bb Ab / D Ab Db
F# E / Ab Bb E
Ab Db / Ab Bb Eb
Db / F Ab Db
... this next progression is similar, but I used some stuff I learned from J. Hartwell, along with the Barry Harris stuff, and I tried
to get that urban contemporary feel with it...
LH/RH
Ab C Db F / Eb Ab C ----- I'm crossing my thumbs here
Bb F / Eb Ab Db ---- same here (quartal)
Eb Bb / A Db F# ---- same here
D D / C F# A ---- tritone substitution for Ab
Db / Ab Db Eb F
What do you think?
Eggs
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some really interesting Ideas
i like your use of the quartal voicing it is surprising
I would play the first example this way
Db F Ab / Db F Ab
C Ab / C Eb Ab
Bb F / Eb Ab Db ---- quartal
Bb Ab/ Eb, F, A, C,
Eb Bb/F F# Bb Db
Eb Bb/ E F# A C#
Ab F#/ F# Bb Db
Ab F#/ Ab C Eb
Ab F#/ Ab B D F
Ab F#/ A C# E F#
Ab F# /B D F Ab
Db F/ C Eb F Ab
the last series going to the Db are passing chords in fact most of the approach chords are passing chords
Your second example
Ab C Db F / Eb Ab C ----
Bb F / Eb Ab Db ----
Eb Bb / F# Bb Eb ----
D D / G C E ----
Db / Ab C Eb
I tried to keep your basic idea in tact I tend to go with voice leading when I can
so i kept the voices within close mivements
I like your ideas they are bold and have an unpredictable development
I tried to keep the structure more in line with the overal theory and how it would apply to traditional harmony
Therefore i styed away from choices that were too unusual.
but you continue to do wha you do
because it is all;
revelant
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Bb, Ab/ A C Eb Gb as you wrote
this is the related diminished But i do not use this as a chord like it is written by you above Those are available notes that can be superimposed along with the notes of a Bb-7 not even the dominant 7 as you have it written my examples were in Db
even in the key of f it would be a Bb major 7 not a Bb7
Its used in many other ways but I was not advocating that that be used as a chord
Bb F Ab/ Ab B D F
these are the roots of the family of seventh chords you rote them like a chord but I dont play that as a chord
the notes to the right of the slash are the available triads or seventh chords that you can apply over that shel
those are notes not chords they are not written to be played as individual notes they are written to show you the availabvle chords when you see me write something out like you did above that is a chord
I never wrote what you did above
Look at this list again it answers all the questions you asked me
Db uses triads B, D, F, Ab
Eb, uses triads Db E, G, Bb
F uses triads Eb, Gb, A, C,
F# uses triads E, G, Bb Db
Ab uses Triads B, D, F, Ab
Bb uses B, D, F, Ab
C uses A, F#, C, Eb
1. simply go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten
2. build a diminished on its third degree
3. then lower that diminished chord a half step
So, I came up with this:
Eb Bb/ E Ab B
Ab Eb/ Db Gb Bb
Db Ab/ C Eb F
Ab, Bb (play as single notes using L.H.)
Db Ab/ B Eb Gb
G D/ A B Eb F
Gb Db/ Ab Bb Db F
Does this utilize what we have been discussing?
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Yes I believe you got it
and those changes are
HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wow I was beginining to wonder about you boy but you created some henenly changes right there
The only thing I would do different would be to voicelead the right hand more so it is not jumping around with those parallell fifhts but the sound is still tight even with that
I am really impressed
could you share your thought process with this one?
And isnt it cool to be able to play something this hot and be able to explain exactly how you did it?
You really busted my chops on this one but it was worth it to hear what you came up with thank you so much for sharing that with me.
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My thought process was simply to utilize what we've been
discussing....correctly. As for the voice leading, If you add an Ab to the third
chord in this progression, that might give you an better sound melodically ( the
reason I left it out is because I try not to double notes too much; no reason
why, I just don't' like playing same notes in both hands).
Continuing with my thought process, in the second part of this progression (the
last three chords), quite simply I like moving down in half-steps. I
don't know why, I just like the sound it is so hot to me. But, as they say to
each his own.
So, there my rationale. Does it make any sense? BTW, I'm glad you liked the chords; and I'm tryin' to tell ya, if I can completely understand a concept, then I can try and use it. That was the reason for all of the questions.
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Well Amen you showed me something
thanks for all your effort
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So, I came up with this:
Eb Bb/ E Ab B
Ab Eb/ Db Gb Bb
Db Ab/ C Eb F
Ab, Bb (play as single notes using L.H.)
Db Ab/ B Eb Gb
G D/ A B Eb F
Gb Db/ Ab Bb Db F
Does this utilize what we have been discussing?
Ok, after giving some thought (and some encouragement) I'm going to try and explain what I did with each chord using the Barry Harris method that Diverse has been so gracious enough to share. I'm really guessing at the key for this progression when I say that it's in Db
Eb Bb/ E Ab B This chord utilizes an E major chord (out of the diminished family of Eb; Db E G Bb) on top of an Eb chord (you may even be able to use the Eb7 shell).
Ab Eb/ Db Gb Bb This chord uses an inverted Gb major chord (out of the diminished family of Ab) on top of an Ab chord
Db Ab/ C Eb F This is a simple Db maj7 chord
Ab, Bb just some passing tones
Ab Eb/ B Eb Gb This chord uses a B maj chord (out of the diminished family of Ab) on top of an Ab chord (I changed it from the original chord up top)
G D/ A B Eb F This is a G9#5 chord. (I'm using it as a substitution for Db)
Gb Db/ Ab Bb Db F This is a simple Gbmaj9 chord to end the progression.
I hope this helps someone.
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You are truly global now Doc absolutely global
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Hey Sjonathan,
I like your stuff, but then I usually like your posts. ;)
Anyway... Diverse,
I didn't fully catch on to the dominant thingy: Ab uses Triads B, D, F, Ab
I didn't realize it actually ends up with a 1,m3rd,flat5, and a 6. (I'm not looking for a SHORCUT! :D)
compared to a dom7,flat2nd,maj3rd and perfect5th on the other degrees. Right?
I would have done my progressions a little differently... I'll see what else I can come up with.
I want to keep up! ... (sounding like Cosell) -> "It aint OVA... It aint OVA!" :D
Eggs
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Hey Sjonathan,
I like your stuff, but then I usually like your posts. ;)
Anyway... Diverse,
I didn't fully catch on to the dominant thingy: Ab uses Triads B, D, F, Ab
I didn't realize it actually ends up with a 1,m3rd,flat5, and a 6. (I'm not looking for a SHORCUT! :D)
compared to a dom7,flat2nd,maj3rd and perfect5th on the other degrees. Right?
I would have done my progressions a little differently... I'll see what else I can come up with.
I want to keep up! ... (sounding like Cosell) -> "It aint OVA... It aint OVA!" :D
Eggs
*sounding like Mickey from the "Rocky" movies* C'mon, ya pug. Get in dere! You can do it, cuz Mickey luvs ya!! ;D
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Hey Sjonathan,
I like your stuff, but then I usually like your posts. ;)
Eggs
Thank you, Eggs. I appreciate that.
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Well ya'll go right ahead and have that theory lesson. It does my heart good to see someone actually learn this stuff from this long lecture.
I'm not there yet and all of this looks foreign to me but.............ONE DAY!
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Thank you ceesharp 'and I know you fronting over there I know you can play something fierce I dont sleep on anybody from the midwest :D
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Been looking at this thread for 3 days, This is good stuff. I like the Harris concept a lot, it also gives you some scales you can run over ( with this newly constructed chord).
I also like the concept that Elio described ( where you lower the entire chord, from the related diminished chord, instead of just one note within the chord). This doesn't create quite as much dissonance as the harris concept, but the Harris concept chords are quite nice as well.
With Elio's method, you end up creating ( what looks like to me) an 11th chord with a flat 9. However you dont get as many alterations over the shell with Elio's method as you do with the method that diverse379 described.
I'm gonna add both techniques into vocabulary. This is some good stuff.
Now I know this has been a long thread, but I need somebody to re-explain the difference between the related diminished ( I think I have this down) vs the relative diminished Family (this I still don't quite understand the concept).
Somebody hollerback at me and I'm gonna post a clip where I use some of this stuff in a couple of songs.
jlewis
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Ah just hanging in the background huh
look at the following steps step two is the related diminished
Step three is the diminished that you use to build triad on
The relative diminished can be used to do 1-2-1 harmony and can also share its chord tones with the parent chord to add tensions
The family of seventh chords are the four seventh chords that get born out of the related diminished chord
for example A diminshed gives birth to
Ab7 B7 D7 And F7
because as you lower any of the notes in the A diminished that note becoms the root of a 7th chord
Looking forward to your developments
1. simply go to the dominant of the chord you want to phatten
2. build a diminished on its third degree
3. then lower that diminished chord a half step
thats it three steps and you have your family of sevenths
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so what you are saying is that I can substitute any chord ( from the family of chords that is created by lowering each one of the tones in the related diminished chord) and that I can play any one of those new chords over the shell that I'm maintaining in my left hand (sometimes I use the full triad in my left but thats just me).
Is this correct?
thanks
man I got to start paying 4HisGlory for that premium membership, this stuff is worth money
jlewis
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so what you are saying is that I can substitute any chord ( from the family of chords that is created by lowering each one of the tones in the related diminished chord) and that I can play any one of those new chords over the shell that I'm maintaining in my left hand (sometimes I use the full triad in my left but thats just me).
Is this correct?
thanks
man I got to start paying 4HisGlory for that premium membership, this stuff is worth money
jlewis
Yessir, that's about right; as I know it to be.
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Okay, Here is my video.
I couldn't sleep ( partly because I got a head cold and my nose is stopped up) so I decided to go ahead an put this out.
I mis-named 2 of the modified chords in this video so I correctly name them here.
I called a chord that I used my "own" modification on a Fminor9 it is actually a Gminor9
I called a chord a Bb dim 6. It is actually a Bb Sus 6 and I resolve it back to the Bb major chord.
Everything else I thik is named accurately. After I shot the video I noticed that my hands were covering the keys, but I name everything as I play it so I think it should be Ok
this was a late night adventure and I'll be the first to admit that I'm no singer, so don't trip on my vocals, I'm talking through them "Donald Lawerence Style"
I basically used the method that diverse379 has outlined to modify some of the changes in the song from the basic structure.
the song is "God is Here" by Martha Munizzi.
Let me know if this helps somebody.
here is the link
http://www.webtest.stpbc.com/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=32&page=view&catid=3&PageNo=1&key=1&hit=1
jlewis
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Yo jlewis you did my heart proud man
that was a cool video clip you pronounced my name wrong like a million times but thats all good.
I liked what you did but you didnt tell them that even that fminor nine you qhattended on your own could have borrowed the g from the realted diminished
remember the related diminished can be used to offer the sus note the nine and the flat six and the major 7
butr you did good with your chords and explaining it
I wouldnt have used octave shells though one five shells 7th shells o ninth or third shells
but enough of criticising a very noble work
thank you for sharing that i hope when people see how easy it is they will build on it
you did make it seem like you could get a phat chord instantly.
I want to do a video clip too. I guess I need a website first r
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Man,
I was trying to give you your props, but I guess I just ended up butchering your name. Anyway, it was a fun excercise and I learned some stuff myself. But I hope it helps somebody and I think that this is the type of stuff this website is designed for.
Yeah, after I looked at the video I notticed I was using octave shells, but I was too tired to do it over again. I fall into my old habits when I'm not concentrating.
But the Key here is that if you don't know all your chords you can use the formula ( and your ear) and come up with some real nice voicings the key is placement, and what you want to resolve to.
Man keeps them tips coming you are giving away GOLD!!!!
jlewis
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I'll take a crack at it...
The relative diminished chord is the chord you arrive on by taking the 3rd of the dominant:
i.e. the relative diminished chord for Bb is found by taking the third of the dominant, F,
which gives us A diminished.... so A diminished is the relative diminished of Bb
But if the chord is the dominant of the scale, then we find the relative diminished by taking
the third of the root of the dominant:
i.e. in the key of Db, the dominant of the scale is Ab... and the third of Ab is C... thus
C diminished is the relative diminished of Ab in the key of Db
Now once you find the relative diminished chord, you then lower all the notes by a chromatic to
arrive at the diminished family of roots to build your triads on:
i.e. since the relative diminished chord of Ab in Db major is C Eb Gb A, we lower each note by a
chromatic, arriving at B D F Ab ... and we then use each of these notes to build our triads in
the right hand, over the left hand shell (which in this case is an Ab shell)
The notes are called a family first of course because diminished chords built on any of the 4 roots
give the same chord, and also because we are using these same roots to build other triads to
create these interesting voicings.
That's it!
Hope it helps :) ..... Diverse and Sjonathan... how'd a brutha do?
Eggs
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Looks like I was a little late! This topic is hot!
-
Okay, Here is my video.
...
jlewis
Dude,
Thanks a lot. The video was cool.
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I second that. Thank Jlewis!
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I think you did a cool thing you brought this thing home
I thought it was intersesting how you made thre note diminished chords and then lowered one of those notes intead of the four note diminished chord
it gives you warmer tones
exactly what you need for gospel
I did not know what to do about the tensions on some of these but your idea of smaller chords works because I dont use the full 7th chord I use the triad so you did a similar thing
Now we need to explore the relative diminished because there is a lot we can do with this chord as well
and you are right you must use your ear to choose the right family chord to use.
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I'll take a crack at it...
The relative diminished chord is the chord you arrive on by taking the 3rd of the dominant:
i.e. the relative diminished chord for Bb is found by taking the third of the dominant, F,
which gives us A diminished.... so A diminished is the relative diminished of Bb
But if the chord is the dominant of the scale, then we find the relative diminished by taking
the third of the root of the dominant:
i.e. in the key of Db, the dominant of the scale is Ab... and the third of Ab is C... thus
C diminished is the relative diminished of Ab in the key of Db
Now once you find the relative diminished chord, you then lower all the notes by a chromatic to
arrive at the diminished family of roots to build your triads on:
i.e. since the relative diminished chord of Ab in Db major is C Eb Gb A, we lower each note by a
chromatic, arriving at B D F Ab ... and we then use each of these notes to build our triads in
the right hand, over the left hand shell (which in this case is an Ab shell)
The notes are called a family first of course because diminished chords built on any of the 4 roots
give the same chord, and also because we are using these same roots to build other triads to
create these interesting voicings.
That's it!
Hope it helps :) ..... Diverse and Sjonathan... how'd a brutha do?
Eggs
I believe you have it; you'd have to ask Diverse (the Simon of Piano Room Idol :D) to be sure.
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Okay, Here is my video.
I couldn't sleep ( partly because I got a head cold and my nose is stopped up) so I decided to go ahead an put this out.
I mis-named 2 of the modified chords in this video so I correctly name them here.
I called a chord that I used my "own" modification on a Fminor9 it is actually a Gminor9
I called a chord a Bb dim 6. It is actually a Bb Sus 6 and I resolve it back to the Bb major chord.
Everything else I thik is named accurately. After I shot the video I noticed that my hands were covering the keys, but I name everything as I play it so I think it should be Ok
this was a late night adventure and I'll be the first to admit that I'm no singer, so don't trip on my vocals, I'm talking through them "Donald Lawerence Style"
I basically used the method that diverse379 has outlined to modify some of the changes in the song from the basic structure.
the song is "God is Here" by Martha Munizzi.
Let me know if this helps somebody.
here is the link
[url]http://www.webtest.stpbc.com/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=32&page=view&catid=3&PageNo=1&key=1&hit=1[/url]
jlewis
dude, what you've done really puts everything into a brighter light. Thanks, I'll be checking this out again and again.
hey, that isn't the St. Paul's Baptist in Va, is it?
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Yes he has a good idea in how he uses it Ike I said i use the concept a little differently but The method That Jlewis used yields tamer voicings perfect for worship
There are a few concepts missing But no matter how deep you dg in this thing ther will always be something else.
Two things the relative diminished gives you notes to substitute or use in your bsic chord like the 9 the 11 the flat 13 and the major 7
so you can take a minor chord and the relative diminshed can yield any of the abave tensions to put in your chord.
also somethimes I will take two or three of the triads found in the family and play them as a two chord pass into another chord
Barry has thousands of applications for this stuff
so As I learn more I will Share more
I tell you I am overjoyed that Jlewis shared this.\
Eggs you have it But you mislabled the family of 7ths you called them the family of diminished
but I think you have the concept you just might lead someone else astry if you explain it that way.
So what progressions have you got for me what chords have you phattened
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dude, what you've done really puts everything into a brighter light. Thanks, I'll be checking this out again and again.
hey, that isn't the St. Paul's Baptist in Va, is it?
Nah man, I on the west coast ( Boise, Idaho). Originally From georgia, went to college in Alabama (Auburn Univ). I'm a southern boy thru and thru. Came out here to work for Hewlett Packard. St. Paul is the Church I attend here.
jlewis
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Every folk ought to study this if U haven't already :o 8)
Please add this as a sticky...
There is so much I have to learn still :o