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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: pastor rob on March 27, 2008, 08:48:26 PM
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Sadly, it continues.
http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AqXj2zG5CZ_IkKD2swmWH9VH2ocA/SIG=196u2ssku/**http%3A//m2f.news.yahoo.com/mailto/%3Fprop=news%26locale=us%26url=http%253A%252F%252Fnews.yahoo.com%252Fs%252Fap%252F20080328%252Fap_on_re_us%252Fdaughter_s_death_prayer%26title=Parents%2Bpick%2Bprayer%2Bover%2Bdocs%253B%2Bgirl%2Bdies%26h1=ap/20080328/daughter_s_death_prayer%26h2=T%26h3=519
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Sorry, here it is.
Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.
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An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.
She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.
The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.
She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.
"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."
Her daughter ? who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin ? had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.
The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.
Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.
"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."
The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.
"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."
The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.
But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline ? a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester ? was declared dead.
She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.
"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."
The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.
Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
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Yeah they should go to Jail. The Child would most likely have lived if they had went to the Hospital. They endangered her life. And she Died because of thier negligence
God gave us doctors for a reason. Of course we have to have faith and pray, but Dotcors are here to help us
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...most interesting....what does the word say about going to the doctor vs trusting Him to heal you?
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Yeah they should go to Jail. The Child would most likely have lived if they had went to the Hospital. They endangered her life. And she Died because of thier negligence
God gave us doctors for a reason. Of course we have to have faith and pray, but Dotcors are here to help us
*in my best Scottish/Irish accent*
Are they now? ::) :D
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*in my best Scottish/Irish accent*
Are they now? ::) :D
*in my best Scottish/Irish accent*
Are they now? ::) :D
You can "SADDOWN" until LGM gets a spell chek, like every othre mesage bored :) ;D
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This is a dog gone shame.
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I dont think they should be jailed.
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I dont think they should be jailed.
Why?
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Why?
Because that would get into the argument of "Should the govt, FDA, etc be requiring people to take X treatment, drug, procedure, or surgery."
I wouldnt want the govt requiring me to do any specific treatment or procedure.
They dont know everything! Or if they do, they are not forthright in bringing truth. Because the healthcare industry is money-driven, and not health driven, certain practices are encouraged when they arent in the best interest of the patient; when it very well should be.
You've got cancer doctors who will never take Chemotherapy themselves, but will administer the treatment to anybody else who becomes diagnosed.
Remember this guy http://www.courttv.com/trials/cherrix/081606_ctv.html
Im not saying the parents of this new kid were 100% right or wrong. Thats not my call. But I do think somepeople, sometimes put too much faith in doctors and/or the drugs or advice they prescribe.
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You can "SADDOWN" until LGM gets a spell chek, like every othre mesage bored :) ;D
Ok, then can we discuss your inability to use the LGM "quoting" system correctly? :D :D :D :D
BTW, if you use Mozilla, IT has spell check built in. ;) 8)
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Yeah they should go to Jail. The Child would most likely have lived if they had went to the Hospital. They endangered her life. And she Died because of thier negligence
God gave us doctors for a reason. Of course we have to have faith and pray, but Dotcors are here to help us
Man! I almost lost it on you for a second! That was the craziest thing I've ever heard! All this talk and you don't even have children! Come back when you have children!
>:( >:( >:( >:(
.... ::)
....I'm saddened by this case, but these parents should definitely not go to jail. Just say for instance your kid comes up to you one night saying their head hurts, you pray for them and then later they die from an aneurysm, you go to jail?!!! Crazy laws! ....and then they were homeschooling too. Makes crazy politicians and administrators think they have to monitor everything we do! (http://doom3.planet-multiplayer.de/forum/html/emoticons/motz.gif)
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Man! I almost lost it on you for a second! That was the craziest thing I've ever heard! All this talk and you don't even have children! Come back when you have children!
>:( >:( >:( >:(
.... ::)
....I'm saddened by this case, but these parents should definitely not go to jail. Just say for instance your kid comes up to you one night saying their head hurts, you pray for them and then later they die from an aneurysm, you go to jail?!!! Crazy laws! ....and then they were homeschooling too. Makes crazy politicians and administrators think they have to monitor everything we do! ([url]http://doom3.planet-multiplayer.de/forum/html/emoticons/motz.gif[/url])
This was more than a headache.
I think of it from this standpoint. How would I feel if I became Very very sick or died, because my parents refused to take me to the doctor to get treatment that most likely would have gotten rid of my sickness in a few days
she had been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weaknes
Now if those symptoms were present for a day or two, then ok, But for a child to be in that kinda pain and sickness for over a month just seems negligent. You cant compare that to one headache.
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This was more than a headache.
I think of it from this standpoint. How would I feel if I became Very very sick or died, because my parents refused to take me to the doctor to get treatment that most likely would have gotten rid of my sickness in a few days
she had been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weaknes
Now if those symptoms were present for a day or two, then ok, But for a child to be in that kinda pain and sickness for over a month just seems negligent. You cant compare that to one headache.
Dude.
I know people that have died from aneurysms. The onset can be just as slow. I've had two family members die, almost in the same way this girl died. Both had diabetes. Both died on the way to the hospital after leaving the church.
I'm not disagreeing that they should've taken her to the doctor, but I'm disagreeing with your opinion that they should be jailed. If this were me, I would've prayed for direction. If God said take them to the hospital, I would've taken them, but doing so doesn't guarantee healing!!!!!!
And the parents are right. The girl can be resurrected. The news is making them out to be psychos. Religious, home-schooling, anti-medicine, psychos. I take offense to that.
You still have no idea what you're talking about.
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The fact that the father, started to give his daughter cpr after she wasn't breathing, is suspect. If you believe fasting and praying is enough, then why administer cpr? I, don't say jail these parents...those who know better do better, but I, say by every means neccessary, protect the other children from the same ignorance. What if this child wanted to live and had no say so in the matter because of her age and her parents beliefs? This child suffered and they need to be held accountable for their actions.
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The fact that the father, started to give his daughter cpr after she wasn't breathing, is suspect. If you believe fasting and praying is enough, then why administer cpr? I, don't say jail these parents...those who know better do better, but I, say by every means neccessary, protect the other children from the same ignorance. What if this child wanted to live and had no say so in the matter because of her age and her parents beliefs? This child suffered and they need to be held accountable for their actions.
If not Prison, What kind of punishment do you think is appropriate for this situation?
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A few years ago, Oprah had a lady on her show who also believed in faith healing and not going to seek medical help. I think her daughter died also from something a few dollars worth of medicine could've prevented. Ya know what? Oprah pointed out this lady was wearing glasses. So...she asked..why not pray God will heal your eyes..why wear glasses? (paraphrased). I thought Oprah had a good point.
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I will say is it's one thing to have faith, and it's another thing to use good common sense.
Some people let someone else's idea of faith make them stupid. This incident was outright stuoid and a child died. C'mon, a whole month?
Some doctors are really about helping the sick, and God helps them to do that. Some doctors are about helping themselves by filling their pockets. Like these Hollywood plastic surgeons. That doesn't make them all bad.
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It settled. More than one of you are crazy!
(http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/o050.gif)
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It settled. More than one of you are crazy!
([url]http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/o050.gif[/url])
Pot meet Kettle.
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let's try again....
...most interesting....what does the word say about going to the doctor vs trusting Him to heal you?
...I feel like this....the law is the law!!!....We can work to change the laws....but whether or not they go to jail..vs...whether or not they did what they should have lies in the word!...Jail or not!
...Just because I am too cowardly to trust God doesnt mean that God isnt right there waiting for me to step out on faith and let Him heal me.
....This is a much more serious deal than we think!....Wisdom?.....Are we saying it is unwise to simply trust God to do what the word says he will do?....
.....Remember the Guy with the "JUG OF MILK"....HE SAID WE WERE FOOLS TO BELIEVE!!!
....He said waiting for God to heal you...was the same as waiting for the jug of milk to heal you!.....He said the odds were the same...and the only difference was that if you got healed...you would cheer.....and if you didnt get healed you would say that was Gods will that you didnt get healed......and then he made us sound stupid for believing that way!......
....He placed the notion of us being wise or not at the hands of the results.....if you you die or in this case go to jail...you are stupid and your faith is stupid....if you do what it takes to live you are wise and have done right not to trust in you faith...
......Remember the Jews and all those years they spent in the wilderness?....They whined and complained and some lived and some died...and blah...blah...blah....and with all of the negative stuff that happened ...was God still to be trusted?....What about Job??????.......Was this real or not?......If they simply looked at the result at the time to determine whether or not God was to be Trusted to be the sole provider of the outcome........we would have a real problem....cuz it didnt always work out in the BIBLE either!!!
.....I am no less a coward than I was before I wrote this....(I think)....But I dont disagree with those parents at all....I wish I had the courage to test my faith as she did....They probably thought...at the worse my child will return to God....but we should die trusting in him!...
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A few years ago, Oprah had a lady on her show who also believed in faith healing and not going to seek medical help. I think her daughter died also from something a few dollars worth of medicine could've prevented. Ya know what? Oprah pointed out this lady was wearing glasses. So...she asked..why not pray God will heal your eyes..why wear glasses? (paraphrased). I thought Oprah had a good point.
Great Point. God gave us medicine so that we may be healed.
So a Question for yall: If your (God forbid) Got shot, and was bleeding to death, would you pray for god to heal them or would you take them to the doctor?
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Great Point. God gave us medicine so that we may be healed.
One could argue that it wasn't the medicine that healed them anyway, it was their faith in God and the medicine, or the faith in the medicine. Either way, faith is the key component.
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Great Point. God gave us medicine so that we may be healed.
So a Question for yall: If your (God forbid) Got shot, and was bleeding to death, would you pray for god to heal them or would you take them to the doctor?
If I had kids, I would take them to the doctor/hospital and in the midst of them being in the hospital I would pray and trust God for their healing. Shoot my parents are preachers and when any one of us were sick, they used wisdom and took us to the doctor...and they prayed in addition to it. God put doctors in place for a reason.
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If not Prison, What kind of punishment do you think is appropriate for this situation?
If jails were a place of education and rehabilitation, I say jail them, but generally speaking that's not the case. These people were ignorant in the midst of their beliefs and they need to be educated so that should a similar situation in the lives of their remaining children arise, they'll be better educated and make a better choice.
I, say mandatory counseling and supervised community service in maybe a children's hospital or hospice, where they will be able to see that faith, prayer, and technology can all work together for the good...Knowing that their child suffered and died needlessly is going to punish them more than any jail sentence ever could...
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If I had kids, I would take them to the doctor/hospital and in the midst of them being in the hospital I would pray and trust God for their healing. Shoot my parents are preachers and when any one of us were sick, they used wisdom and took us to the doctor...and they prayed in addition to it. God put doctors in place for a reason.
Yeah I would do both, I was typing in a rush.
My father is very religious or spiritual or w/e, A few years ago, my sister was laying on the floor, and my cousin decided to walk on her back. By doing that she hurt my sister's spine and she was paralyzed. My pops called the Ambulance and prayed. A few hours after that incedent, she could move just fine. The doctors said they had no Idea what happend. We belived God Healed her. My Point is We can have all the faith in the world, but it is still common sense to take your child or yourself to get looked at. What if God had not healed her right away? It would look very bad for my parents to have her in the house paralyzed for a week, without any record of her seeing a doctor.
So pray while you are dialing 911
I'm done. I think Most of us here are smart enough to konw what to do when something like this happens to us
If jails were a place of education and rehabilitation, I say jail them, but generally speaking that's not the case. These people were ignorant in the midst of their beliefs and they need to be educated so that should a similar situation in the lives of their remaining children arise, they'll be better educated and make a better choice.
I, say mandatory counseling and supervised community service in maybe a children's hospital or hospice, where they will be able to see that faith, prayer, and technology can all work together for the good...Knowing that their child suffered and died needlessly is going to punish them more than any jail sentence ever could...
I feel you. The Jail system is a whole 'nother thread.
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Pot meet Kettle.
So what you tryna say? Huh?
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Pot meet Kettle.
exactly. lol
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let's try again....
...most interesting....what does the word say about going to the doctor vs trusting Him to heal you?
...I feel like this....the law is the law!!!....We can work to change the laws....but whether or not they go to jail..vs...whether or not they did what they should have lies in the word!...Jail or not!
...Just because I am too cowardly to trust God doesnt mean that God isnt right there waiting for me to step out on faith and let Him heal me.
....This is a much more serious deal than we think!....Wisdom?.....Are we saying it is unwise to simply trust God to do what the word says he will do?....
.....Remember the Guy with the "JUG OF MILK"....HE SAID WE WERE FOOLS TO BELIEVE!!!
....He said waiting for God to heal you...was the same as waiting for the jug of milk to heal you!.....He said the odds were the same...and the only difference was that if you got healed...you would cheer.....and if you didnt get healed you would say that was Gods will that you didnt get healed......and then he made us sound stupid for believing that way!......
....He placed the notion of us being wise or not at the hands of the results.....if you you die or in this case go to jail...you are stupid and your faith is stupid....if you do what it takes to live you are wise and have done right not to trust in you faith...
......Remember the Jews and all those years they spent in the wilderness?....They whined and complained and some lived and some died...and blah...blah...blah....and with all of the negative stuff that happened ...was God still to be trusted?....What about Job??????.......Was this real or not?......If they simply looked at the result at the time to determine whether or not God was to be Trusted to be the sole provider of the outcome........we would have a real problem....cuz it didnt always work out in the BIBLE either!!!
.....I am no less a coward than I was before I wrote this....(I think)....But I dont disagree with those parents at all....I wish I had the courage to test my faith as she did....They probably thought...at the worse my child will return to God....but we should die trusting in him!...
Indeed.
When the tribulations come, people will die just to keep from getting the mark put on them. Will they be wrong if they allow their children to die to keep them from being marked by Satan?
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Indeed.
When the tribulations come, people will die just to keep from getting the mark put on them. Will they be wrong if they allow their children to die to keep them from being marked by Satan?
soooo true....The word says it's coming!
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This is crazy...
This actually happened to a woman I knew.
She was older than me...But she went to
a church....and the church told her
not to go to the Dr.....and the folk at the
church told her to believe God...
She listened to them and died....believing God. :-\
Yes God is able to heal...But He also gives us wisdom.
And if something is wrong, and you don't know what it is...
You go to a physician and get checked out.
I believe in the old days....Our folk didn't have the means to
get checked out by a Dr...so all they could do is pray.
But now...things are different, and we have the means to see a doctor.
But when we go to the dr., to get checked.
We are also suppose to pray that God will
touch those physicians so that they will be able
to find out whats wrong and give us what is needed to fix things.
Never cut God out all together...
Because He IS the ultimate healer of ALL things.
But ask God to touch those who He
has given knowledge to....
and allow them to help us.
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This is crazy...
This actually happened to a woman I knew.
She was older than me...But she went to
a church....and the church told her
not to go to the Dr.....and the folk at the
church told her to believe God...
She listened to them and died....believing God. :-\
Yes God is able to heal...But He also gives us wisdom.
And if something is wrong, and you don't know what it is...
You go to a physician and get checked out.
I believe in the old days....Our folk didn't have the means to
get checked out by a Dr...so all they could do is pray.
But now...things are different, and we have the means to see a doctor.
But when we go to the dr., to get checked.
We are also suppose to pray that God will
touch those physicians so that they will be able
to find out whats wrong and give us what is needed to fix things.
Never cut God out all together...
Because He IS the ultimate healer of ALL things.
But ask God to touch those who He
has given knowledge to....
and allow them to help us.
COSIGN!!!
Couldn't have put it betta... ;D
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COSIGN!!!
Couldn't have put it betta... ;D
+1
Dr'.s minds and hands are simply God's tools in helping to heal us.
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This is crazy...
This actually happened to a woman I knew.
She was older than me...But she went to
a church....and the church told her
not to go to the Dr.....and the folk at the
church told her to believe God...
She listened to them and died....believing God. :-\
Yes God is able to heal...But He also gives us wisdom.
And if something is wrong, and you don't know what it is...
You go to a physician and get checked out.
I believe in the old days....Our folk didn't have the means to
get checked out by a Dr...so all they could do is pray.
But now...things are different, and we have the means to see a doctor.
But when we go to the dr., to get checked.
We are also suppose to pray that God will
touch those physicians so that they will be able
to find out whats wrong and give us what is needed to fix things.
Never cut God out all together...
Because He IS the ultimate healer of ALL things.
But ask God to touch those who He
has given knowledge to....
and allow them to help us.
Dude....You're making uriah's point! You make is sound bad that she DIED believing God could heal her.
Look, I'm not saying that I wouldn't go to the doctor, or that I wouldn't tell someone to go to the doctor, but we should have the right to live by our beliefs without being persecuted....even in cases like the subject of this thread! The girl wasn't abused. The girl definitely wasn't neglected, since they were praying for her. I could see if the girl was sick and they ignored her, stuck her in some room, and left her to heal on her own. That wasn't the case.
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Dude....You're making uriah's point! You make is sound bad that she DIED believing God could heal her.
Look, I'm not saying that I wouldn't go to the doctor, or that I wouldn't tell someone to go to the doctor, but we should have the right to live by our beliefs without being persecuted....even in cases like the subject of this thread! The girl wasn't abused. The girl definitely wasn't neglected, since they were praying for her. I could see if the girl was sick and they ignored her, stuck her in some room, and left her to heal on her own. That wasn't the case.
I wasn't trying to make it sound bad fam.....
But what I was trying to say is...
She died believing God....
Instead of dying believing that God
put these dr's in place to help us.
Thats all....
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OK, within the story(re-read if you need to), the mother stated that she believed her daughter went into a coma. Now all of you saying that they weren't wrong for believing like they did, would you let your child remain in a coma in your home untreated and continue to let your faith lead to healing in your child? That was a siren going off when she lost conciousness like that. I have no problem with having faith, but isn't this possibly a case of "faith without work" playing itself out in a most tragic way? Common sense can be just as powerful as faith.
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This is what it boils down to: They believed God had the power to heal their daughter. Is that wrong?
Before anyone answers....think about this: There are many different denominations. If one that believed differently than us came into power and dictated their beliefs on us, how would we feel? Would you fight or would you conform?
Also, for you obey-the-law-of-the-land people, where is the law that states if my daughter is sick, I have to take her to the doctor? Show me, and I'll admit my ignorance...at least on this part., not on the former.
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This is what it boils down to: They believed God had the power to heal their daughter. Is that wrong?
Before anyone answers....think about this: There are many different denominations. If one that believed differently than us came into power and dictated their beliefs on us, how would we feel? Would you fight or would you conform?
Also, for you obey-the-law-of-the-land people, where is the law that states if my daughter is sick, I have to take her to the doctor? Show me, and I'll admit my ignorance...at least on this part., not on the former.
So with that being said, how do you feel about the poisonous snake handling churches that believe that God will protect them from snakebite and drinking poison? Then they get bit and die. Would you do the same? Is your faith that strong? Or does using your common sense come into play here? With you being on the military, if you were to go and fight on the front lines, would you go out there without a helmet, flak jacket, and weapon and use your faith knowing you will be protected solely by that? Or would you shoot back if you got shot at?
And no this is not a hi-jack. The underlying issue is still faith.
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This is what it boils down to: They believed God had the power to heal their daughter. Is that wrong?
Before anyone answers....think about this: There are many different denominations. If one that believed differently than us came into power and dictated their beliefs on us, how would we feel? Would you fight or would you conform?
Also, for you obey-the-law-of-the-land people, where is the law that states if my daughter is sick, I have to take her to the doctor? Show me, and I'll admit my ignorance...at least on this part., not on the former.
Would you act in that same way
If it was your child??
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OK, within the story(re-read if you need to), the mother stated that she believed her daughter went into a coma. Now all of you saying that they weren't wrong for believing like they did, would you let your child remain in a coma in your home untreated and continue to let your faith lead to healing in your child? That was a siren going off when she lost conciousness like that. I have no problem with having faith, but isn't this possibly a case of "faith without work" playing itself out in a most tragic way? Common sense can be just as powerful as faith.
a. No. I've said I would take my kids to the doctor.
b. No. They have faith their prayers can work to move God to heal their daughter.
I would bet right now, they're praying for healing....and we're sitting here talking about jailing them and taking away their other kids instead of praying with them!
SMH
Is faith practical?
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So with that being said, how do you feel about the poisonous snake handling churches that believe that God will protect them from snakebite and drinking poison? Then they get bit and die. Would you do the same? Is your faith that strong? Or does using your common sense come into play here? With you being on the military, if you were to go and fight on the front lines, would you go out there without a helmet, flak jacket, and weapon and use your faith knowing you will be protected solely by that? Or would you shoot back if you got shot at?
And no this is not a hi-jack. The underlying issue is still faith.
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God!
Need I say more? They weren't tempting God! They were asking for help!
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So with that being said, how do you feel about the poisonous snake handling churches that believe that God will protect them from snakebite and drinking poison? Then they get bit and die. Would you do the same? Is your faith that strong? Or does using your common sense come into play here? With you being on the military, if you were to go and fight on the front lines, would you go out there without a helmet, flak jacket, and weapon and use your faith knowing you will be protected solely by that? Or would you shoot back if you got shot at?
And no this is not a hi-jack. The underlying issue is still faith.
Oh....I missed this one!
No, but didn't David do that very thing? Come on now, you're batting with twigs, dude! Use something more substantial!
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But is it not possible that
God would use those doctors
to work a miracle for their daughter??
Quick story...(some may have heard this)
A man stranded in the ocean...
He's prays, "God save me!!"
A man comes by in a boat...and offers to pick him up.
He says no.
Prays again...."Lord please come and save me!!!"
A big ship comes by...and offers to pick the man up.
Again, he says no.
The man drowns and dies...
He gets to heaven...
And he asks God....why didn't you save me??
God answers...
I sent by two boats to save you..... :-\
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Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God!
Need I say more? They weren't tempting God! They were asking for help!
And maybe that actually were by not heeding the words and suggestions of concerned family. Maybe that was God's answer to them and they ignored it. Remember, the Lord works in mysterious ways.
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But is it not possible that
God would use those doctors
to work a miracle for their daughter??
Quick story...(some may have heard this)
A man stranded in the ocean...
He's prays, "God save me!!"
A man comes by in a boat...and offers to pick him up.
He says no.
Prays again...."Lord please come and save me!!!"
A big ship comes by...and offers to pick the man up.
Again, he says no.
The man drowns and dies...
He gets to heaven...
And he asks God....why didn't you save me??
God answers...
I sent by two boats to save you..... :-\
Because I believe that God works through people, I believe that He gave us doctors to heal us. So, I'd go to them.
As for, "should they go to jail for what they believe", I feel the answer is a resounding, 'no'.
I think the issue at hand is, "how does one work their faith?"
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a. No. I've said I would take my kids to the doctor.
b. No. They have faith their prayers can work to move God to heal their daughter.
I would bet right now, they're praying for healing....and we're sitting here talking about jailing them and taking away their other kids instead of praying with them!
SMH
Is faith practical?
Praying is just us, verbalizing our faith...its not work.
I can pray for God to give me a job...
But I still have to go out and apply.
Thats the WORK.
Praying is an act of faith.
God helps those who help themselves.
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And maybe that actually were by not heeding the words and suggestions of concerned family. Maybe that was God's answer to them and they ignored it. Remember, the Lord works in mysterious ways.
You're right back at making B3's point. God DOES work in mysterious ways including healing people without the use of doctors. :-\
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You're right back at making B3's point. God DOES work in mysterious ways including healing people without the use of doctors. :-\
It goes both ways in this case.
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The news is making them out to be psychos. Religious, home-schooling, anti-medicine, psychos. I take offense to that.
Honestly, this is the part that really disturbs me.
These types of cases happen from time to time, and it never fails that the media will portray the parents as criminals and nutcases. And that, to me, is very unfortunate. Aside from whether or not they should've taken this child to the doctor, we should still consider the possibility that these parents heard directly from the Lord, and that this story played out exactly how God intended for it to play out.
No, I'm not saying the parents were right. No, I'm not saying they should, or should not, go to jail.
What I AM saying is that God DOES still speak to His people, and that the media loves to make Christians who hear from God, or stand on the Word of God look like a bunch of idiots. And that sucks. We had a case here in Georgia last year of some parents who killed their child while trying to cast a demon out of him. The media did an excellent job of making them look like nuts who believed in "witches, goblins, ghosts, and demons," after the parents made reference to the power of the Holy Ghost to deliver this boy from the demons afflicting him.
Then, people start talking about them being not-guilty by reason of insanity and all that. These folks aren't insane, they just believe in the healing power of the Holy Ghost.
For the record, I've never relied on my faith alone to heal my child or myself (or my dog, for that matter). If my child is sick, she's going to the doctor, and that's the end of that. But, I don't think we should be so hard on someone who has a different kind of faith and stands on it.
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It goes both ways in this case.
It goes both ways in any case.
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If we see someone in ''need'', should we not call for help or help while praying or just bypass them and pray while we keep walking? God gives us wisdom, knowledge, power and authority over every situation. It's up to us to ''excercise'' these things in faith, believing that God is our provider and that He has provided us the means by which to be made whole, no matter the situation.
Thank God, for medical technology when used in accordance to God's plan and purpose. If it weren't for that technology, a whole lot of us wouldn't be here to share our testimonies.
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If we see someone in ''need'', should we not call for help or help while praying or just bypass them and pray while we keep walking?
And, if that same someone said, "No doctors", then what? :-\
Do you use your faith or their faith?
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But is it not possible that
God would use those doctors
to work a miracle for their daughter??
Quick story...(some may have heard this)
A man stranded in the ocean...
He's prays, "God save me!!"
A man comes by in a boat...and offers to pick him up.
He says no.
Prays again...."Lord please come and save me!!!"
A big ship comes by...and offers to pick the man up.
Again, he says no.
The man drowns and dies...
He gets to heaven...
And he asks God....why didn't you save me??
God answers...
I sent by two boats to save you..... :-\
I'm not talking possibilities. We don't know what God told them.
As for the story: show me a comparable one in the bible. That one's made up.
I believe we were all put here to help each other. If I'm hungry, I will ask someone for food. If I need money, I will ask someone for money. If I need to be healed, I will ask someone for healing. In each case, I would pray to God for direction. If he told me to do someone contrary to my normal way of thinking, I'd do it.
Case: I'm living in a foreign country. I don't have to pay rent or utilities. All the money I make is mine. I have very little bills, and I'm able to save. While we were preparing to stay here longer, for the monetary benefit, God said move back to the USA. It's looking like I'll have to pay to move my family there, and people are telling us that God won't tell us to move there and make us pay our own way. I think the opposite. Every time I've done what God wanted me to do it meant me sacrificing something, but in the end, I finished with more than what I had from the start.
Having faith isn't convenient sometimes. And to other people, having faith can at times seem foolish.
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I'm not talking possibilities. We don't know what God told them.
As for the story: show me a comparable one in the bible. That one's made up.
I believe we were all put here to help each other. If I'm hungry, I will ask someone for food. If I need money, I will ask someone for money. If I need to be healed, I will ask someone for healing. In each case, I would pray to God for direction. If he told me to do someone contrary to my normal way of thinking, I'd do it.
Case: I'm living in a foreign country. I don't have to pay rent or utilities. All the money I make is mine. I have very little bills, and I'm able to save. While we were preparing to stay here longer, for the monetary benefit, God said move back to the USA. It's looking like I'll have to pay to move my family there, and people are telling us that God won't tell us to move there and make us pay our own way. I think the opposite. Every time I've done what God wanted me to do it meant me sacrificing something, but in the end, I finished with more than what I had from the start.
Having faith isn't convenient sometimes. And to other people, having faith can at times seem foolish.
COSIGN.
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I
Having faith isn't convenient sometimes. And to other people, having faith can at times seem foolish.
Right'o
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COSIGN.
+1
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COSIGN.
+1
soooo true....The word says it's coming!
The world is definitely coming to an end now! Sjon and LaRue are agreeing! And they're agreeing with uriah and me!!! ;D ;D
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And, if that same someone said, "No doctors", then what? :-\
Do you use your faith or their faith?
I, would respect that persons wishes for their situation. That has nothing to do with my faith and would not keep me from praying or believing. The bottom line is we have choices. My Mother was very clear about not wanting life support and there was none. That was her choice. Was that little girl given a choice? What if she wanted to live ?/?
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I, would respect that persons wishes for their situation. That has nothing to do with my faith and would not keep me from praying or believing. The bottom line is we have choices. My Mother was very clear about not wanting life support and there was none. That was her choice. Was that little girl given a choice? What if she wanted to live ?/?
Did you allow your children do what they want? or did you do what you thought was best?
Isn't this called parenting?
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Did you allow your children do what they want? or did you do what you thought was best?
Isn't this called parenting?
So what about the mother who thought it was best, that she drowned her 3 kids. Is that Parenting?
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So what about the mother who thought it was best, that she drowned her 3 kids. Is that Parenting?
Or what about Abraham, who was seconds away from killing his son? Is that parenting?
You can't compare a mentally ill person with one who hears from the Lord and obeys His command.
You do not know what God told these parents to do.
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Did you allow your children do what they want? or did you do what you thought was best?
Isn't this called parenting?
We're talking health here and when they said they weren't feeling well or hurting if it were something that I, could take care of I, did. If it was a situation for the dr's. to handle, i took them....God gave me the wisdom to know the difference.
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So what about the mother who thought it was best, that she drowned her 3 kids. Is that Parenting?
It is.
par·ent·ing
–noun
1. the rearing of children: The schedule allows her very little time for parenting.
2. the methods, techniques, etc., used or required in the rearing of children: a course in parenting.
3. the state of being a parent; parenthood.
–adjective
4. of or concerned with the rearing of children: good parenting skills.
Note the bold part. If there are "good" parenting skills, there are bad ones.
But your post doesn't compare to this topic. The parents in question didn't willfully kill their daughter.
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It is.
par·ent·ing
–noun
1. the rearing of children: The schedule allows her very little time for parenting.
2. the methods, techniques, etc., used or required in the rearing of children: a course in parenting.
3. the state of being a parent; parenthood.
–adjective
4. of or concerned with the rearing of children: good parenting skills.
Note the bold part. If there are "good" parenting skills, there are bad ones.
But your post doesn't compare to this topic. The parents in question didn't willfully kill their daughter.
They didn't willfully kill their daughter, but in a court of law they're going to possibly face, involuntary manslaughter, child endangerment and neglect and possibly more.
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It is.
par?ent?ing
?noun
1. the rearing of children: The schedule allows her very little time for parenting.
2. the methods, techniques, etc., used or required in the rearing of children: a course in parenting.
3. the state of being a parent; parenthood.
?adjective
4. of or concerned with the rearing of children: good parenting skills.
Note the bold part. If there are "good" parenting skills, there are bad ones.
But your post doesn't compare to this topic. The parents in question didn't willfully kill their daughter.
Well in my opinion it is BAD Parenting to let you kid die, when all they probaly needed was some Antibiotics. It is higly Possible that God already sent her healing, in the form of physicians and medicine. The parents ignored those things. Everything God gives us doesnt have to be "Supernatural". And I believe that the parents were looking for something supernatural, when they had what God already made available them, at the hospital. That i believe is Bad parenting.
The story below explains this perfectly
But is it not possible that
God would use those doctors
to work a miracle for their daughter??
Quick story...(some may have heard this)
A man stranded in the ocean...
He's prays, "God save me!!"
A man comes by in a boat...and offers to pick him up.
He says no.
Prays again...."Lord please come and save me!!!"
A big ship comes by...and offers to pick the man up.
Again, he says no.
The man drowns and dies...
He gets to heaven...
And he asks God....why didn't you save me??
God answers...
I sent by two boats to save you..... :-\
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I'm not talking possibilities. We don't know what God told them.
As for the story: show me a comparable one in the bible. That one's made up.
I believe we were all put here to help each other. If I'm hungry, I will ask someone for food. If I need money, I will ask someone for money. If I need to be healed, I will ask someone for healing. In each case, I would pray to God for direction. If he told me to do someone contrary to my normal way of thinking, I'd do it.
Case: I'm living in a foreign country. I don't have to pay rent or utilities. All the money I make is mine. I have very little bills, and I'm able to save. While we were preparing to stay here longer, for the monetary benefit, God said move back to the USA. It's looking like I'll have to pay to move my family there, and people are telling us that God won't tell us to move there and make us pay our own way. I think the opposite. Every time I've done what God wanted me to do it meant me sacrificing something, but in the end, I finished with more than what I had from the start.
Having faith isn't convenient sometimes. And to other people, having faith can at times seem foolish.
I hear you fam...
But I think you're missing me....
I'm not saying that God needs a dr. to heal someone...
And I'm not saying that we shouldn't have faith.
But if God tells you not to go to the doctor...
and that He will heal your daughter....
and He tells you to believe in him...
And that he will heal her.
If your child dies....
Was it God???
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We're talking health here and when they said they weren't feeling well or hurting if it were something that I, could take care of I, did. If it was a situation for the dr's. to handle, i took them....God gave me the wisdom to know the difference.
...and now we're back to calling them fools--or at the very least ignorant--again.
Case: Boy falls and hits head and starts bleeding. Father, an ex-military, uses his training to assess his son's condition. Seeing that nothing was wrong, he bandages him and keeps him in the house for a few days. A neighbor, seeing this gets worried about the child's health and calls social services. The father is then assaulted by police and investigated for negligence. After a medical doctor examines the boy and finds nothing wrong, charges are dropped.
I might have gotten some of the facts wrong, but that was a true story. I think it was even posted here.
Using your example: Picture a family in church. The child states that he doesn't feel well and wants prayer. The parent feels his forehead is really warm. Does the parent say, "No you're going to the hospital," or "Ok, let's get prayer". In the latter case, if anything was to happen to the child, the parent would still be prosecuted, just as this family is being prosecuted.
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I hear you fam...
But I think you're missing me....
I'm not saying that God needs a dr. to heal someone...
And I'm not saying that we shouldn't have faith.
But if God tells you not to go to the doctor...
and that He will heal your daughter....
and He tells you to believe in him...
And that he will heal her.
If your child dies....
Was it God???
God will not lie.
The bible says that God can heal. There are accounts in the bible were God has healed people from worse ailments than diabetes. If I have faith that God can heal, instead of going to the doctor, it doesn't mean the doctor couldn't heal me. I just choose to use my faith.
Well in my opinion it is BAD Parenting to let you kid die, when all they probaly needed was some Antibiotics. It is higly Possible that God already sent her healing, in the form of physicians and medicine. The parents ignored those things. Everything God gives us doesnt have to be "Supernatural". And I believe that the parents were looking for something supernatural, when they had what God already made available them, at the hospital. That i believe is Bad parenting.
The story below explains this perfectly
Speculation. Now you're batting with twigs. It is also "highly possible" that God can still heal the girl!
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God will not lie.
The bible says that God can heal. There are accounts in the bible were God has healed people from worse ailments than diabetes. If I have faith that God can heal, instead of going to the doctor, it doesn't mean the doctor couldn't heal me. I just choose to use my faith.
You're still missing me homie....
I know that God is able to do ALL things...
Including, healing without the use of doctors.
My question is Not....Can God heal on his own??
My question is....
Were the parents truly hearing from God??
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God will not lie.
The bible says that God can heal. There are accounts in the bible were God has healed people from worse ailments than diabetes. If I have faith that God can heal, instead of going to the doctor, it doesn't mean the doctor couldn't heal me. I just choose to use my faith.
But aren't we STILL using faith when we choose to visit the doctor?...
I know am I.
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But aren't we STILL using faith when we choose to visit the doctor?...
I know I AM.
Correction
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Speculation. Now you're batting with twigs. It is also "highly possible" that God can still heal the girl!
I thought she already died? Of course God can resurect her if he wanted to, but I dont think we need no zombie girl runnin around up in hea. :DCorrection
Good move. Grammar Wizard woulda been all over that
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You're still missing me homie....
I know that God is able to do ALL things...
Including, healing without the use of doctors.
My question is Not....Can God heal on his own??
My question is....
Were the parents truly hearing from God??
You're not expecting me to answer that, are you? No one here knows the answer to that!
I supposed that they went off of what they knew to do: pray. They were waiting for an answer from God.
.....I know you're going to go back to the part about the people around them saying take the girl to the doctor, but they might not have looked at it that way.
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I thought she already died? Of course God can resurect her if he wanted to, but I dont think we need no zombie girl runnin around up in hea. :D
So, are u saying Lazarus from the bible was a zombie guy after his resurrection?
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You're not expecting me to answer that, are you? No one here knows the answer to that!
I supposed that they went off of what they knew to do: pray. They were waiting for an answer from God.
.....I know you're going to go back to the part about the people around them saying take the girl to the doctor, but they might not have looked at it that way.
No I'm not really expecting you to answer that.. :-\
I know you weren't there.
IRT the bold....
I was't thinking about that...
You're a funny dude. :-\
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I, believe wholeheartedly and sincerely that God can heal without the assistance of medical technology as He has done many times in my own life, but He can also use that medical technology as a tool as I, previously stated and we should be ''sure'' that we're hearing a word from the Lord, before we watch someone suffer and die.
With this particular story, there are too many inconsistencies..i.e..Father giving cpr, family crying out for help, etc....
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So, are u saying Lazarus from the bible was a zombie guy after his resurrection?
So much for comic relief.....
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I just want to say that if this wasn't a current events article posted, but instead, a story quoted from Mark 7:20-32, we'd be fine with it. In fact, preachers would be preaching it, SS teachers would be teaching it, we'd be using it to argue this point or that point... we'd be trying to figure out what lessons we could learn from it... We'd be all "oooooh, I want that kinda faith..."
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore, and the same power He used to heal the sick and raise the dead still exists today.
This story is ONLY outrageous because it's being told in 2008, not 28 A.D.
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This story is ONLY outrageous because it's being told in 2008, not 28 A.D.
...and because the girl died.
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I just want to say that if this wasn't a current events article posted, but instead, a story quoted from Mark 7:20-32, we'd be fine with it. In fact, preachers would be preaching it, SS teachers would be teaching it, we'd be using it to argue this point or that point... we'd be trying to figure out what lessons we could learn from it... We'd be all "oooooh, I want that kinda faith..."
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore, and the same power He used to heal the sick and raise the dead still exists today.
This story is ONLY outrageous because it's being told in 2008, not 28 A.D.
I agree...God is the same as He's always been....
But my thing is this....
(and I know none of us were there to confirm this)
But if God tells me that He is gonna heal my child.
Then He will heal my child.
Now if I don't hear God say that to me.
Then I'm taking my baby to the doctor.
I'm not gonna wait to "hear" from God.
I'm gonna use the common sense that he blessed me with.
Now if, in the midst of me using this good sense....
He tells me to stop going to the dr.
And I mean HE really tells ME.....
Thats a different story....
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...and because the girl died.
Then you must have missed my point. :-\
My point was that if this same story, including the part about the girl dying, occurred 2000 years ago, and was recorded in the Bible, we would not be calling it outrageous.
I agree...God is the same as He's always been....
But my thing is this....
(and I know none of us were there to confirm this)
But if God tells me that He is gonna heal my child.
Then He will heal my child.
Now if I don't hear God say that to me.
Then I'm taking my baby to the doctor.
I'm not gonna wait to "hear" from God.
I'm gonna use the common sense that he blessed me with.
Now if, in the midst of me using this good sense....
He tells me to stop going to the dr.
And I mean HE really tells ME.....
Thats a different story....
Yeah, me too.
And I'll take it a step further, if y'all will allow me to be really transparent...
If that were me, and God told me He would heal her and there's no need to take her to the doctor... chances are, I'd still take her to the doctor.
I'm sorry y'all. I'm just being honest. I believe God is able, and I trust Him. But, I don't have the kind of faith it takes to let my comatose child chill out in my house waiting on God to heal her.
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Then you must have missed my point. :-\
My point was that if this same story, including the part about the girl dying, occurred 2000 years ago, and was recorded in the Bible, we would not be calling it outrageous.
Oh, my bad. Sorry!!!
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Then you must have missed my point. :-\
My point was that if this same story, including the part about the girl dying, occurred 2000 years ago, and was recorded in the Bible, we would not be calling it outrageous.
Yeah, me too.
And I'll take it a step further, if y'all will allow me to be really transparent...
If that were me, and God told me He would heal her and there's no need to take her to the doctor... chances are, I'd still take her to the doctor.
I'm sorry y'all. I'm just being honest. I believe God is able, and I trust Him. But, I don't have the kind of faith it takes to let my comatose child chill out in my house waiting on God to heal her.
IRT to the bold....
*slowly raises finger*
I'm with you sis....
I would have to "physically" hear His voice. ;)
Remember we talked about that sis.....lol
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IRT to the bold....
*slowly raises finger*
I'm with you sis....
I would have to "physically" hear His voice. ;)
Remember we talked about that sis.....lol
Yep, we sho did talk about that...
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B3Wannabe
I have read most of your post and is convinced. Having faith is practical! Its stronger than medicine! I would also agree, they can only jail is if they did not feed her, clean her, blah blah blah.
My mother just past.
Now six months ago, a choice to allow surgery was in MY hands. I used my "faith" in prayer to seek direction. Through fasting and prayer, the Lord gave me the O.K. But, HAD GOD SAID NO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe me, I would have said no. NO was something I wanted anyway. The surgery that God directed me on help her stay alive another 5 months verses 3 days.
The key issue if choice. If someone has the choice to abort a baby, I certainly have a choice to use faith and not be punished. Public opinion may rebuttal, but the God's will is what we answer too.
NOW ON THE OPPOSITE END
I reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy hope God directed them to go that route, and not a foolish decision and call it faith. People make so called "faith choices" when God's nowhere in it! So have to be careful to verify its God.
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IRT to the bold....
*slowly raises finger*
I'm with you sis....
I would have to "physically" hear His voice. ;)
Remember we talked about that sis.....lol
*gives Redy dap while he raises his finger* I'm right wit'chall. :-\
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think about this. was the parents neglectful towards their child? what is our duty to our children that God has lent us? also, if their answer is that God said he would heal their child, he did.
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My comment relates more to this thread, rather than what the course of action the parents took.
Why is it within the Christian community, someone ALWAYS has the right answer for EVERYONE else?
Why can't those who believe in divine healing act accordingly, and those of US who believe in God's healing through the doctor do the same?
Can we have different beliefs regarding this and other matters? Or is it a one size fits all type of faith?
Why do we work? Can't God provide as He did back in the day?
Why do secure our home, cars, buy other types of protection? Can't God protect us?
Arguments can be made about these matters as well.
Where does it end? ?/? ?/? ?/?
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My comment relates more to this thread, rather than what the course of action the parents took.
Why is it within the Christian community, someone ALWAYS has the right answer for EVERYONE else?
Why can't those who believe in divine healing act accordingly, and those of US who believe in God's healing through the doctor do the same?
Can we have different beliefs regarding this and other matters? Or is it a one size fits all type of faith?
Why do we work? Can't God provide as He did back in the day?
Why do secure our home, cars, buy other types of protection? Can't God protect us?
Arguments can be made about these matters as well.
Where does it end? ?/? ?/? ?/?
I like the basis of your thought process. Even Paul addressed the issue of different "levels" of faith when he discussed the eating of meats offered unto idols. I haven't read every response in this thread, so I can't speak to whether or not anyone has stated their reply in such a way that it gives the feeling that thier answer is THE answer for the collective. The responses I have read don't give me that impression. However, I admit, my attention span is a little short, so I normally skim through posts of threads that I'm late to.
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My comment relates more to this thread, rather than what the course of action the parents took.
Why is it within the Christian community, someone ALWAYS has the right answer for EVERYONE else?
Why can't those who believe in divine healing act accordingly, and those of US who believe in God's healing through the doctor do the same?
Can we have different beliefs regarding this and other matters? Or is it a one size fits all type of faith?
Because "What My Pastor says is right, and everbody else is wrong. And if you dont believe what I beleive then you are going to....."
I think thats the mentality of many christians. I think Denominational pride is one of the reasons why some of us think like that.
I also think stretching of the word to fit your beliefs has something to do with that mentality.
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IRT to the bold....
*slowly raises finger*
I'm with you sis....
I would have to "physically" hear His voice. ;)
Remember we talked about that sis.....lol
Now this has happened to me. I promise. In 1988, I was driving home from work about 11:00 one night and this guy was right next to me on the interstate. I was all alone and I thought nothing of it until I heard a voice say "slow down" and I kinda played it off. I was in disbelief. Then the voice said much louder again "SLOW DOWN!" As SOON as I touched my brake and slowed down, that car that was just beside me spun out across four lanes of traffic from one side to the other and back again and hit the wall. Now if that wasn't God, what was it? I am being dead serious about this. Now until I hear these parents say the same thing, then I think that the family was God's way of talking to them.
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It seems like to me a lot of people don't have faith. Yes I too go to the doctor but I really go just to honestly get a doctors note for work, not because I need medicine to "heal" me. We as Christians talk a good faith walk but half of us, don't have faith in nothing but the things we can physically do ourselves. Yea we preach about Isaac and Jacob, Daniel and the Lion's Den, Job, etc. but would we have the faith these men had in the Bible. Do we really trust God beyond all measures. I read one person say, if they pray and God don't answer "quick" enough for them then they not waiting they just taking their child to the doctor. WOW! God dont answer they not waiting. But we always quoting God is an on time God YES HE IS...
Don't get me wrong, I don't see nothing wrong with going to the doctors after all we do pay for health insurance. However when we put more faith in things, people, etc more than God there is a problem. We don't see God move like back in the day because we don't believe. Yes our mouths say a lot but our faith isn't much of nothing. Honestly most Christians only access their faith when the bills are due, and they baby need shoes( yall know the story). The Bible says some things ONLY come by fasting and praying. If by Jesus stripes we were healed then why we don't stand on that. It didn't say by taking or sending doctors your way, but by the stripes of JESUS. (ya most going to say i am too spiritual, call it what you want). The Bible also said if you are sick or if sick is among you take them or you to the ELDERS OF THE CHURCH and let them lay hands on them. I honestly know personal storys where the DOCTORS have given up on the person, told the family to prepare for the dealth. BUT GOD!! See their faith was not in the Doctors, etc but they knew a man names JESUS, who died for them, and they prayed, fasted and believed in Gods Word. And they were healed. Still living. One of the persons is my Pastor (shout out Elder Dr. N.R. Burney, Sr.). We had a man name Elder Matthews (in our church org.) that he was in touch with God so that everbody took their sick ones to him and he would pray and seek direction from God, and if he didn't lay hands on the sick you knew to prepare for a funeral but if he layed hands on them, my God they would become well. His faith with God and His walk with God. Elder Matthews had that power, the power Jesus said He would leave unto us.
I agree wholeheartedly with B3W. How strong is your faith? We can argue up and down on these parents choices but without facts we can't say to much.
1. We don't know if God or what God said to them (so case is closed) - for all we know this child's dealth could have been a test of the parents faith unto God (WE DON'T KNOW) -- grant it I would not want my parents faith to be tested with my life on the line, however just as Isaac and Jacob. WE don't know their relationship with God before or after this child was conceived, born, lived, and died. We can't judge them. (Isaac relationship before and after Jacob, or the daughter who past away and the father cried out unto God and the danzel (i know i am probably wrong in the spelling but you know) girl arised and became ALIVE!! I believe this little girl who passed away is ALIVE in Jesus right now and because of her Parents Faith SHE WAS MADE WHOLE).
2. The father probably started CPR because as a cop, that just kicks in, trust me I know!! I am in Law Enforcement. We had a mother get short of breath at church and as much as i sing every Sunday God is a healer, this and that, I found myself kicking into first responder mode when she fell short of breath, however, i remember MY GOD IS ABLE and I went into prayer and praising God. Needless to say that mother is doing well. (Even with her, the doctors wanted to cut her foot off and she told them, HER GOD IS ABLE and 20 years later that same foot, she is walking on better than me)
I urge everybody to step back and look at our faith. One question is it where it needs to be? WE put more faith in our cars, then God! Now that is involuntary manslaugter of the Spirit! Are you guilt?
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It seems like to me a lot of people don't have faith. Yes I too go to the doctor but I really go just to honestly get a doctors note for work, not because I need medicine to "heal" me. We as Christians talk a good faith walk but half of us, don't have faith in nothing but the things we can physically do ourselves. Yea we preach about Isaac and Jacob, Daniel and the Lion's Den, Job, etc. but would we have the faith these men had in the Bible. Do we really trust God beyond all measures. I read one person say, if they pray and God don't answer "quick" enough for them then they not waiting they just taking their child to the doctor. WOW! God dont answer they not waiting. But we always quoting God is an on time God YES HE IS...
Don't get me wrong, I don't see nothing wrong with going to the doctors after all we do pay for health insurance. However when we put more faith in things, people, etc more than God there is a problem. We don't see God move like back in the day because we don't believe. Yes our mouths say a lot but our faith isn't much of nothing. Honestly most Christians only access their faith when the bills are due, and they baby need shoes( yall know the story). The Bible says some things ONLY come by fasting and praying. If by Jesus stripes we were healed then why we don't stand on that. It didn't say by taking or sending doctors your way, but by the stripes of JESUS. (ya most going to say i am too spiritual, call it what you want). The Bible also said if you are sick or if sick is among you take them or you to the ELDERS OF THE CHURCH and let them lay hands on them. I honestly know personal storys where the DOCTORS have given up on the person, told the family to prepare for the dealth. BUT GOD!! See their faith was not in the Doctors, etc but they knew a man names JESUS, who died for them, and they prayed, fasted and believed in Gods Word. And they were healed. Still living. One of the persons is my Pastor (shout out Elder Dr. N.R. Burney, Sr.). We had a man name Elder Matthews (in our church org.) that he was in touch with God so that everbody took their sick ones to him and he would pray and seek direction from God, and if he didn't lay hands on the sick you knew to prepare for a funeral but if he layed hands on them, my God they would become well. His faith with God and His walk with God. Elder Matthews had that power, the power Jesus said He would leave unto us.
I agree wholeheartedly with B3W. How strong is your faith? We can argue up and down on these parents choices but without facts we can't say to much.
1. We don't know if God or what God said to them (so case is closed) - for all we know this child's dealth could have been a test of the parents faith unto God (WE DON'T KNOW) -- grant it I would not want my parents faith to be tested with my life on the line, however just as Isaac and Jacob. WE don't know their relationship with God before or after this child was conceived, born, lived, and died. We can't judge them. (Isaac relationship before and after Jacob, or the daughter who past away and the father cried out unto God and the danzel (i know i am probably wrong in the spelling but you know) girl arised and became ALIVE!! I believe this little girl who passed away is ALIVE in Jesus right now and because of her Parents Faith SHE WAS MADE WHOLE).
2. The father probably started CPR because as a cop, that just kicks in, trust me I know!! I am in Law Enforcement. We had a mother get short of breath at church and as much as i sing every Sunday God is a healer, this and that, I found myself kicking into first responder mode when she fell short of breath, however, i remember MY GOD IS ABLE and I went into prayer and praising God. Needless to say that mother is doing well. (Even with her, the doctors wanted to cut her foot off and she told them, HER GOD IS ABLE and 20 years later that same foot, she is walking on better than me)
I urge everybody to step back and look at our faith. One question is it where it needs to be? WE put more faith in our cars, then God! Now that is involuntary manslaugter of the Spirit! Are you guilt?
Do you have any children?
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No, I have a Godson who, I raised like I had him. He has been through some serious illness where I knew it was nobody but God who healed him. His mother didn't care enough to take him to the "doctors" and I couldn't put him on my insurance. I leaned and depended on God. (I was 19 years old)
Don't get it wrong, I am not saying nothing is wrong with the docs. But when they over ride our prayer, faith, etc. Something is wrong. And I don't think I need kids to "experince" what you guys are talking about. I have had plenty of people I have cared about to the extreme being dealthly ill or sick. Love is Love whether it is a mothers love, fathers love, etc. You never want to see somebody you love suffer, etc. So I can understand having a child, friend, family member, whom ever be sick and depending on your faith in God. ;D
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No, I have a Godson who, I raised like I had him. He has been through some serious illness where I knew it was nobody but God who healed him. His mother didn't care enough to take him to the "doctors" and I couldn't put him on my insurance. I leaned and depended on God. (I was 19 years old)
Don't get it wrong, I am not saying nothing is wrong with the docs. But when they over ride our prayer, faith, etc. Something is wrong. And I don't think I need kids to "experince" what you guys are talking about. I have had plenty of people I have cared about to the extreme being dealthly ill or sick. Love is Love whether it is a mothers love, fathers love, etc. You never want to see somebody you love suffer, etc. So I can understand having a child, friend, family member, whom ever be sick and depending on your faith in God. ;D
Indeed.
My mother was admitted to the hospital about two weeks ago. She was very near death and didn't know it. She has diabetes and has never taken her medicine. Never changed her diet, so it just built up in her legs. Anyway, the doctors now say that she needs a new kidney. As her son, I'm divided between donating mine and believing in God. I'm pretty sure I'm a match. If I believe in God and my mother dies, I would probably feel like I should've donated my kidney. What do I do? Remember, I've said that if I were put in the same situation as these parents, I would go to the doctor. Now, what do I do when my mother is sick? I haven't even discussed this with my wife yet!...Ok. I'm going to discuss it now. Right after I hit "Post".
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One day many of us will become children again, and our chldren will take care of us, so we should think about how we would like to be treated, when we are once again children and can not care for ourselves. If you were very sick and elderly and unable to speak yourself, how long would you want them to wait on God, before you go get checked out? or would you just wanna suffer and possibly die? Just a thought.....
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No, I have a Godson who, I raised like I had him. He has been through some serious illness where I knew it was nobody but God who healed him. His mother didn't care enough to take him to the "doctors" and I couldn't put him on my insurance. I leaned and depended on God. (I was 19 years old)
Don't get it wrong, I am not saying nothing is wrong with the docs. But when they over ride our prayer, faith, etc. Something is wrong. And I don't think I need kids to "experince" what you guys are talking about. I have had plenty of people I have cared about to the extreme being dealthly ill or sick. Love is Love whether it is a mothers love, fathers love, etc. You never want to see somebody you love suffer, etc. So I can understand having a child, friend, family member, whom ever be sick and depending on your faith in God. ;D
Yeah, I have godchildren too. It's not the same, trust me. You said that "love is love," but I assure you there isn't a parent in this world who will agree with that. Most parents will tell you they didn't even know this new dimension of love existed until they had children. I grew up loving my parents and my sisters, and could not imagine my life without them. I've been "in" love romantically, and I love my Savior... none of that is the same love a mother (or father) feels for his/her child. So no, it's not the same at all.
Anyway, that doesn't really matter anyway. I wasn't trying to imply that if you don't have children, you don't have a voice on this issue.
Your comment came across as very self-righteous and very judgmental.
Refer back to what Godsbassman2000 said. You're entitled to handle things your way, and others are entitled to handle things their way. That doesn't make you right and others wrong. And your post DEFINITELY came across as though you believe anyone who doesn't handle it the way YOU WOULD is wrong.
And for the record, I agree with B3W too. I just don't believe it's cool to knock the folks that think differently. VERY uncool.
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Indeed.
My mother was admitted to the hospital about two weeks ago. She was very near death and didn't know it. She has diabetes and has never taken her medicine. Never changed her diet, so it just built up in her legs. Anyway, the doctors now say that she needs a new kidney. As her son, I'm divided between donating mine and believing in God. I'm pretty sure I'm a match. If I believe in God and my mother dies, I would probably feel like I should've donated my kidney. What do I do? Remember, I've said that if I were put in the same situation as these parents, I would go to the doctor. Now, what do I do when my mother is sick? I haven't even discussed this with my wife yet!...Ok. I'm going to discuss it now. Right after I hit "Post".
Hey, I'll be praying for you and your mom. I know you live under God's divine direction, so I know you'll do the right thing, according to the will of God.
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Well, I've talked to my wife, all she said was, "It's risky."
I know she feels like this: I love your mother and all, but I'm not willing to lose you!
I know I can convince her that God will protect me, because she says "I have more faith than her."
...So, I understand what LaRue is saying about the "love" being different. I love my mother, but if my wife and my mother both needed a kidney, I would give it to my wife.
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Yeah, I have godchildren too. It's not the same, trust me. You said that "love is love," but I assure you there isn't a parent in this world who will agree with that. Most parents will tell you they didn't even know this new dimension of love existed until they had children. I grew up loving my parents and my sisters, and could not imagine my life without them. I've been "in" love romantically, and I love my Savior... none of that is the same love a mother (or father) feels for his/her child. So no, it's not the same at all.
Anyway, that doesn't really matter anyway. I wasn't trying to imply that if you don't have children, you don't have a voice on this issue.
Your comment came across as very self-righteous and very judgmental.
Refer back to what Godsbassman2000 said. You're entitled to handle things your way, and others are entitled to handle things their way. That doesn't make you right and others wrong. And your post DEFINITELY came across as though you believe anyone who doesn't handle it the way YOU WOULD is wrong.
And for the record, I agree with B3W too. I just don't believe it's cool to knock the folks that think differently. VERY uncool.
well I am truly sorry you feel that way. That is not what I meant. I am nothing of "self-righteous and very judgmental." I just gave my thoughts. Reguardless that is what I believe, if you agree you do if you don't you don't.
And about the children situation, so yo mean to tell me adotive parents can't feel the same love as though if they had the child on their own? just a question. You are intitled to believe how and what you want, that is the great thing about God He gave us choices. I feel as Christians we don't have the same faith or we don't obtain the faith we should have. That is my thoughts. It is what it is, I am not trying to argue or have bad blood with Nobody.
B3W I will be praying for you, as with the mother at our church who I talked about earlier. She needed a heart transplant. However, she told the Doctors NO! They told her she wont live, she said God has the last say. Needless to say yet again, she is alive and well. This mother (Mother Griffin) comes from the old school, I look up to her and admire the faith she has. My faith is built from her testimony and testimony of my own. I encourage you to continue to believe in God, He will lead and guide you in all ways of truth. (of course you know that, haha)
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well I am truly sorry you feel that way. That is not what I meant. I am nothing of "self-righteous and very judgmental." I just gave my thoughts. Reguardless that is what I believe, if you agree you do if you don't you don't.
And about the children situation, so yo mean to tell me adotive parents can't feel the same love as though if they had the child on their own? just a question. You are intitled to believe how and what you want, that is the great thing about God He gave us choices. I feel as Christians we don't have the same faith or we don't obtain the faith we should have. That is my thoughts. It is what it is, I am not trying to argue or have bad blood with Nobody.
In order to give an INFORMED answer and not just some opinion, I would have to have both given birth to a child and raised an adopted child. I have not experienced BOTH, so I cannot answer that question. To answer would be pure speculation.
As for the other part, I totally respect your opinion, and that was never the issue. My issue was that you came across like you were pointing fingers at those that don't share your opinion. Your tone was indeed judgmental, even if you didn't mean for it to come out that way.
One of the things I love the most about message boards is the variety of opinions and ideas held by its members, and that there usually isn't ONE cookie-cutter, "one size fits all" answer for everyone. ;) :)
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As for the other part, I totally respect your opinion, and that was never the issue. My issue was that you came across like you were pointing fingers at those that don't share your opinion. Your tone was indeed judgmental, even if you didn't mean for it to come out that way.
I am truly sorry LaRue1212, I read my response time and time again, even asked God was it too blunt (I usually ask God to guide me because i don't ever want to come off as a KNOW IT ALL, or somebody who is A HOLY ROLLY, OR I SIT ON GOD'S EXCUTIVE BOARD) how-be-ever, I am truly sorry and pray that LGM family and you (LaRue1212) forgive me if it came across that way... :D ;) :) ;D
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I am truly sorry LaRue1212, I read my response time and time again, even asked God was it too blunt (I usually ask God to guide me because i don't ever want to come off as a KNOW IT ALL, or somebody who is A HOLY ROLLY, OR I SIT ON GOD'S EXCEUTIVE BOARD) how-be-ever, I am truly sorry and pray that LGM family and you (LaRue1212) forgive me if it came across that way... :D ;) :) ;D
Ain't no love lost, sis. It's all good.
(And for the record, I don't disagree with what you were saying at all. I'll be the first to admit I don't have as much faith as I should).
Love ya!