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Gospel Instruments => Gospel Keyboard / Piano => Topic started by: jjegede04 on April 18, 2009, 02:11:33 PM

Title: Transpose again
Post by: jjegede04 on April 18, 2009, 02:11:33 PM
(Before i say any thing, i am sorry if i cause any inconvenience by bringing up this topic.) :) :) :) :) :) ;) ;) :( :-* :-* ?/?

Take this senario:
 Your church keyboardist has just left

 there is no one else left for the job

 You have only been playing keybard for about a year

 the choir bombard you with songs

 you dont even have a keyboard at home

 you can only play in C#

 your not even that good 

 you finaly learn a few songs with the little time you have
 but you only know it in one key

 The choir come and sing it in a different key

 You remember that there is a transpose button

 You finsh the song and everyone is happy




Would you say that this person has a good reason to tanspose

If yes, should he carry on doing it

If no, What shoulde have done









                                                              this person is me     
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 18, 2009, 03:07:51 PM
Transpose to get by, for now. At the same time, you need to take what you know in C#/Db and apply to the other keys as practice.


No keyboard at home? Get a key to the church and practice there.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on April 18, 2009, 05:28:45 PM
In my opinion, the only good reason to transpose is either up or down an octave.  Other than that, do what what u want man.  The only person who has to live with it is you.  Plus, if u can only play in one key then u shouldn't be in any kind of main music position.  Again, this is just my opinion and u can agree or not.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 18, 2009, 06:56:27 PM
In my opinion, the only good reason to transpose is either up or down an octave.  Other than that, do what what u want man.  The only person who has to live with it is you.  Plus, if u can only play in one key then u shouldn't be in any kind of main music position.  Again, this is just my opinion and u can agree or not.



Thats kind of harsh, don't you think? I mean he was kind of thrown in the position, but I won't go as far as saying that he shouldn't be in any kind of main music position. We don't really know how his church is...if its big, small etc. Maybe the drummer isn't so great...maybe the choir doesn't sing that great...maybe the whole music section could use work. By him coming on this site, he may now try to take that one key and learn everything in all 12 keys and he may work with the choir and the other musicians and they all grow together.

There's no set requirement for being in a main music position. If it was a big church, then yea, everyone is on a level and you're below, but to me, it all depends on the exact situation.


Just throwing my two cents in there.



All in all...obviously, try to stay off of the transpose button. I think you already know the answer to your own question, but you just wanted to see what people had to say about your scenario. Every musician, whether they play in one key or all keys, knows that playing in all keys is always the best way at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: berbie on April 18, 2009, 10:29:55 PM
I've always believed that if a person is going to transpose, he/she should learn everything in the key of "C" and transpose out as necessary.  He should learn every chord, every lick, every run, all "C" scales (penta., blues,etc.) relating to the key of "C" until he could play them with his eyes closed and his back to the piano.  There will be no confusion how many steps that you are transposing, etc since you are out of c, and the keyboard is in c.  The key of "C" has no sharps or flats and is easy to learn.  A person will start to sound good very quickly and would be able to help his choir.  Then he could learn other keys in the order desired, and at his own pace.(but only after he had become above expert in the key of "C").  I see no harm in it as long as you don't make the key of "C" your permanent career.


berbie
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on April 19, 2009, 06:46:21 AM
Thats kind of harsh, don't you think? I mean he was kind of thrown in the position, but I won't go as far as saying that he shouldn't be in any kind of main music position.

Yeah, that is kinda harsh, but it's real.  Sometimes we take on things we aren't ready for just to please people.  Not saying this is the case, but just saying.  You can always turn down a position.

That's just how I feel about the whole thing.  We live in this microwave generation where we want things to just come like that.  People back in the day had to work hard at this stuff w/out all this technology.  And you can see the results of their hard work.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: violist2009 on April 19, 2009, 05:49:21 PM
My .02 amounts to this.

Use the transpose button to get by when you have to. But you should also be learning the songs in other keys(I say the orig key that it was written in or what you have the sheet music for or what you hear if you play by ear, but you get my drift.) and then transpose as you have to.

Also Learn ALL the keys and their relative minors( to get the relative minors take the note of the key and go either 3 half-steps down or 6 whole steps up. xD its pretty funny that a F6 chord is a 3rd(i think) inversion of the Dm7 chord... But anyway the relative minor of the key of F is D minor.)

But anyway be patient you will learn it all eventually. And being thrown into positions is the best way to learn mainly because you have to.

Just stay away from the transpose button as much as possible. But if you need it. Go for it.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: berbie on April 19, 2009, 10:19:26 PM
I might mention that I don't use the transpose button at all.  I can't use it because the notes don't sound right.  I have a tendency to start playing chords based on how the chord should sound and I get lost if the board is trasposed.  Since I don't know how the chords will sound, I don't know what to play then.  I would use it some other than that.  I know a musician, though, who sounds VERY good, but can only play well in one key. He is transposing most of the time.  He can even pick up the key that a person is singing in and transpose. It works for him and I can't knock it.

berbie 
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 19, 2009, 10:24:02 PM
I know a musician, though, who sounds VERY good, but can only play well in one key. He is transposing most of the time.  He can even pick up the key that a person is singing in and transpose. It works for him and I can't knock it.

berbie 

Yea, but people are saying that...well, fact is it only works for him because he's staying in his comfort box. I know many musicians who play GREAT in one key and use the transpose button ALL THE TIME...but what happens when they visit a church and that church doesn't have a transpose button..then, will it work for him?

The transpose button is definitely a crutch...it holds you back from really taking your piano to another level because you can never really even understand theory because you never practice it except in one key.


Also, when playing a song for a choir in which the song modulates a few times, trying to press the transpose button at the right moment can be a hassle unless you  have a simple "up and down" transpose button...and still, it can be a hassle....because its not natural sounding.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: momuzik on April 20, 2009, 11:44:18 AM
Would you say that this person has a good reason to tanspose...

In a situation like this, using the transpose button was a good idea. Your end results probably turned out better than if you all sang acapella. Besides, probably no one but you knew you were transposing. But afterwards, the 1st thing you should do is learn the song in the key it's sung in.

It's a commendable thing you did by stepping in the gap keeping the music moving despite your inexperience, etc...

... Sometimes we take on things we aren't ready for just to please people.  Not saying this is the case, but just saying.  You can always turn down a position...

On-the-job-training isn't all bad as long as you know what you're capable of. In this case you'll learn a lot more and a lot faster by playing and interacting with live singing, off-the-cuff moments and the nervousness of playing in front of people.
Sometimes we need a good foot in the back (like this situation) to give us a jump start.

...He should learn every chord, every lick, every run, all "C" scales (penta., blues,etc.) relating to the key of "C" until he could play them with his eyes closed and his back to the piano....

Why C? I talked to some musicians who hate that key because it has no sharps and flats. One guy explained that keys like Eb, F#, G#, etc... are played mostly on the black keys which sit higher and are separated which makes keys easier to play without "fat-fingering" a lot of notes.

Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 20, 2009, 12:27:45 PM
In my opinion, the only good reason to transpose is either up or down an octave.  Other than that, do what what u want man.  The only person who has to live with it is you.  Plus, if u can only play in one key then u shouldn't be in any kind of main music position.  Again, this is just my opinion and u can agree or not.
Do you need a hug?   :D   
Anyways, to each his own.  I took a job playing a church many years ago and was in the same situation.  If I hadn't transposed at that time, I probably wouldn't have been able to keep the job.  While musical integrity is very important, being able to keep it moving is also important.  Get a keyboard or get access to the church and work on learning all keys.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: berbie on April 20, 2009, 03:34:54 PM
In my opnion, C is easier because it has no sharps or flats.  It is easy to transpose out of because the board is set to the key of C.  Many learning tools illustrate in the key of C.  Many licks , fills and other musical info are presented in the key of C to be transcribed to other keys. C is just a convenient key for learning. Personally, I find it an easy key to play, but that fact allows me to understand how some might prefer another key.

berbie
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Fenix on April 20, 2009, 04:00:49 PM
Use the transpose button...it is good for you.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on April 20, 2009, 04:47:33 PM
Why C?

Here's your answer:

C is just a convenient key for learning.


Music starts with your mind.  So, if u want to train your mind, the key of C is the best place to start cuz u don't have to think as hard.  Since u dealing with all white keys, u can pretty much keep your hands straight most of the time.

As you learn more about music, then u can move to the other keys that have the mix of white and black notes.  The transfer of knowledge is easier from all white keys to adding a black note at a time.

All music theory should be learned in the key of C 1st, then transfered to other keys.  It will make your musical journey a whole lot easier, trust me on this.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 20, 2009, 05:04:24 PM
I hate C.  I honestly dont think learning in C is easier, unless maybe you are a true beginner.



Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 20, 2009, 11:31:58 PM
I hate C too lol.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: berbie on April 21, 2009, 12:02:36 AM
I C.  We all have our preferences and to each is best his own. It was just a suggestion for a good learning exdperience.  It has merit if it will work for you.

berbie
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on April 21, 2009, 07:35:34 AM
I hate C.
I hate C too lol.

I don't really like C either, but it's still the best key to start learning in.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 21, 2009, 08:32:36 AM
I don't really like C either, but it's still the best key to start learning in.
C was the first key I learned way back when.  Probably not all that gospel friendly however.  I remember we were doing Yolanda Adams'  "In the midst of all" and this one visiting musician frown up when I told him it was in C.  :)
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 21, 2009, 09:01:05 AM
(Before i say any thing, i am sorry if i cause any inconvenience by bringing up this topic.) :) :) :) :) :) ;) ;) :( :-* :-* ?/?

Take this senario:
 Your church keyboardist has just left

 there is no one else left for the job

 You have only been playing keybard for about a year

 the choir bombard you with songs

 you dont even have a keyboard at home

 you can only play in C#

 your not even that good 

 you finaly learn a few songs with the little time you have
 but you only know it in one key

 The choir come and sing it in a different key

 You remember that there is a transpose button

 You finsh the song and everyone is happy




Would you say that this person has a good reason to tanspose

If yes, should he carry on doing it

If no, What shoulde have done    



Buy a keyboard.

Don't have a lot of money?  buy a cheap one.  You need it.


At this early stage, you need to spend a lot of time working on scales and triads, and you need a keyboard that's readily available for you to do that. 

You're not practicing at your own personal leisure anymore.  Now you have a Sunday Morning service you have to prepare for.  Speak to the person/people who chose the songs on Sunday mornings.  Tell him/her/them that you're just starting out, so you NEED to know the songs a week in advance.  Go home and practice those songs in every key.


As for your transposing, don't lose too much sleep over it.  You're clearly a beginner, and you shouldn't expect to be doing more than you can at this point.

What we do is MINISTRY, and it won't minister if you massacre some poor song just to avoid transposing.

...now if you're still transposing a year from now, I'll say "shame on you".  I had about 3 years to learn before our keyboardist ran out on us, so I never needed the transpose button (still don't know where it is on our board, thank ya Jesus!!!), but your situation is very different from mine.

If you REALLY put you mind to it, a year from now you won't even be thinking about the Transpose.  You won't be a beast, but you'll be able to play in every key.

Learn every key.  Practice, practice, practice.

...but until then, cut yourself a little slack and use the transpose button when you must.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 21, 2009, 09:05:50 AM
C was the first key I learned way back when.  Probably not all that gospel friendly however.  I remember we were doing Yolanda Adams'  "In the midst of all" and this one visiting musician frown up when I told him it was in C.  :)

Same here.  It's the easiest key to learn in.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 21, 2009, 09:13:09 AM
Ehh I don't think C is the easiest to learn in. To me, thats a myth. I first learned in Db and had trouble going down to C....mainly because since every note is a white key, my fingers would tend to play the next note. With black keys, your fingers tend to place well between black and white keys.

I think people just tend to think C is the easiest key, but I think all keys are really just as equal...its all a mind thing.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 21, 2009, 09:55:49 AM
Ehh I don't think C is the easiest to learn in. To me, thats a myth.
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: momuzik on April 21, 2009, 10:03:09 AM
..Ehh I don't think C is the easiest to learn in. To me, thats a myth.../quote]

I feel that people think it's easier because it's usually the 1st key learned. And once you learn it, your comfortable with it.

I'm sure the effect will be the same if a newby learned G# 1st.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 21, 2009, 10:28:57 AM
I feel that people think it's easier because it's usually the 1st key learned. And once you learn it, your comfortable with it.

I'm sure the effect will be the same if a newby learned G# 1st.
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 21, 2009, 10:39:35 AM
Turn to your neighbor and say IN MY OPINION!!
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 21, 2009, 11:29:54 AM
IN MY OPINION!!
I've never heard(read) you use those three words together.   
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 21, 2009, 04:42:33 PM
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hmm...what does that exactly mean? lol
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on April 21, 2009, 04:43:01 PM
Turn to your neighbor and say IN MY OPINION!!

That's the whole point U14, this is NOT a myth, it's a proven fact.  The key of C is the easiest key to learn in because it is all white keys.  Now, notice I didn't say it's the easiest key to play in. I'm coming purely from a learning point of view and this is not an opinion.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 21, 2009, 04:45:56 PM
Think about it. In the key of C, all keys are white, so its can be a little more confusing because one can lose their place as to what notes they are pressing. I've tried showing some people some things on they keyboard in C and I'll like play the a C major and then play a F major...and tell them to play it...just after watching me, they play something totally different.


With black keys, you have, sort of..like markers, to remind one of where the notes are....if you get what I mean.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 21, 2009, 04:47:06 PM
That's the whole point U14, this is NOT a myth, it's a proven fact.  The key of C is the easiest key to learn in because it is all white keys.  Now, notice I didn't say it's the easiest key to play in. I'm coming purely from a learning point of view and this is not an opinion.


How is that a fact? How can one prove that? I don't care if you take 50 people and teach them piano...that still doesn't make it a fact.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on April 21, 2009, 04:51:25 PM
Think about it. In the key of C, all keys are white, so its can be a little more confusing because one can lose their place as to what notes they are pressing. I've tried showing some people some things on they keyboard in C and I'll like play the a C major and then play a F major...and tell them to play it...just after watching me, they play something totally different.


With black keys, you have, sort of..like markers, to remind one of where the notes are....if you get what I mean.

O.K., u still not understanding whre I'm coming from.  I didn't say C was the easiest to play in, I just said it's the easiest to learn in.  I'm pointing more to the theory side of music, which is easier in C than in any key.  For example, it's easier to understand how to form a C major chord than let's say an F# major chord or even an E major chord.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 21, 2009, 04:59:30 PM
O.K., u still not understanding whre I'm coming from.  I didn't say C was the easiest to play in, I just said it's the easiest to learn in.  I'm pointing more to the theory side of music, which is easier in C than in any key.  For example, it's easier to understand how to form a C major chord than let's say an F# major chord or even an E major chord.

I got what you were saying...and I knew you were looking at it from a theoretic standpoint, and I still say I don't believe thats a fact. I just believe that its all in the brain and how one feels.


But its all good.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Metronome on April 21, 2009, 05:20:37 PM
I got what you were saying...and I knew you were looking at it from a theoretic standpoint, and I still say I don't believe thats a fact. I just believe that its all in the brain and how one feels.


But its all good.

Lol if you think about it though...the key of C has no sharps or flats....therefore if you have NO PRIOR experience on playing, then C probably would be the easiest key to learn....you would be surprised how much stuff like that confuses people....
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 21, 2009, 05:34:29 PM
Can you prove that it is a fact?

Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Fenix on April 21, 2009, 05:38:16 PM
Lol if you think about it though...the key of C has no sharps or flats....therefore if you have NO PRIOR experience on playing, then C probably would be the easiest key to learn....you would be surprised how much stuff like that confuses people....

O.K., u still not understanding whre I'm coming from.  I didn't say C was the easiest to play in, I just said it's the easiest to learn in.  I'm pointing more to the theory side of music, which is easier in C than in any key.  For example, it's easier to understand how to form a C major chord than let's say an F# major chord or even an E major chord.

Cosign! From a THEORETICAL point of view the key of C is the easiest to LEARN in. This is why classical music is first taught in the key of C as it is the easiest key to read music in and play from.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 21, 2009, 05:45:10 PM
yea C is the easiest key visually and learning but not so easy to play in because the keys are too close its different than what ur explaining blackwiz87
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 21, 2009, 06:51:22 PM
Lol if you think about it though...the key of C has no sharps or flats....therefore if you have NO PRIOR experience on playing, then C probably would be the easiest key to learn....you would be surprised how much stuff like that confuses people....


Bingo!
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on April 21, 2009, 08:55:21 PM
Can you prove that it is a fact?

Yes sir I can.  The answer has been said already, the key of C has no sharps or flats.  If you were to start with let's say C#, u would first have to know where C is, then u would have to know what a sharp is, then u would have to put them together.  Now, ain't it much easier to just start with C since u gotta know it anyway to start off with?
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: berbie on April 21, 2009, 10:50:50 PM
My statement that C was the essiest key to learn in was based on logic, study, circumstances, experience and facts.  It was never meant to say that there were none who would prefer another key. I stated that PERSONALLY I found C an easy key to play(coincidentally).  I believe that the statements that I made had merit.  Personally(again)I wouldn't tell a person to avoid a good key to learn in just because I didn't like it. People develop their preferences as they move forward in music. They learn better from the beginning ny following known procedures. 

berbie 

Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: SisterCM on April 22, 2009, 06:08:28 AM
May a truly newbie beginner say something here?

I am learning to play the piano, my lesson started sept. of 2007 and the very first key I learned was the key of C.  It was very simple no flats and no sharps it was easy for me to learn the half and whole steps. The melodic & harmonic intervals, the major, minor and tetra chords were easy.  Learning the correct fingering was easy.  The key of A minor was easy to learn.  I learned most of theory that I know in the key of C first than moved to the key of G with one # next the key of F with one b. it was easy for me to learn in this order now I am learning the other keys by adding one # or b to the previous key.  In addition, as I learn a new key I learn each relative minor key.  Therefore, my experience has been that the key of C was the easiest to start with and continue to add on to the other keys .  Now that is my .02 worth.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Metronome on April 22, 2009, 08:20:59 AM
This post is very interesting to me.  When I first started learning how to play I learned Ab first.....but without the key of C i would have been set back a looonnnnnnnggggggg way.  C is all white notes.....so when it came to making my "sweet" chords I was able to SEE the difference when adding a black note.....so it became easier to be able to make my chords in all keys by simply refering back to C.  BTW, I absolutely hate playing in C..dont like the way it sounds or nothin.....but i will kill in it IF necessary lol
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 22, 2009, 09:36:10 AM
BTW, I absolutely hate playing in C..dont like the way it sounds or nothin.....but i will kill in it IF necessary lol
I always chuckle when I hear musicians saying they hate playing in C
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 22, 2009, 09:43:57 AM
I always chuckle when I hear musicians saying they hate playing in C
why it makes you laugh I wanna know :)
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 22, 2009, 09:54:42 AM
why it makes you laugh I wanna know :)
I just wonder what's wrong with C.  It almost seems off limits for gospel. I played keys for for over 15 years before I learned to play gospel so I guess I don't have that bias.   ;)
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Fenix on April 22, 2009, 10:01:13 AM
I just wonder what's wrong with C.  It almost seems off limits for gospel. I played keys for for over 15 years before I learned to play gospel so I guess I don't have that bias.   ;)

I also started off in C so i see absolutely no issue with playing in C. In fact C is my reference key for any funny chord i come across.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 22, 2009, 10:03:00 AM
I just wonder what's wrong with C.  It almost seems off limits for gospel. I played keys for for over 15 years before I learned to play gospel so I guess I don't have that bias.   ;)
all white keys for that matter :(
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 22, 2009, 10:06:31 AM
I just wonder what's wrong with C.  It almost seems off limits for gospel. I played keys for for over 15 years before I learned to play gospel so I guess I don't have that bias.   ;)
all white keys for that matter it must be a sin to play in c d e f g a b
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 22, 2009, 10:12:28 AM
all white keys for that matter it must be a sin to play in c d e f g a b
With all the modulations in gospel, wouldn't it make sense to know all those "other" keys as well.  I'm just sayin...   ;D
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 22, 2009, 05:10:11 PM
With all the modulations in gospel, wouldn't it make sense to know all those "other" keys as well.  I'm just sayin...   ;D
i agree ;D
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Metronome on April 22, 2009, 05:16:37 PM
With all the modulations in gospel, wouldn't it make sense to know all those "other" keys as well.  I'm just sayin...   ;D

"I need you to sruvive"is the perfect example of songs I dislike.....it goes up by whole steps instead of half steps...just made D natural and E natural feel all bad....
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 22, 2009, 05:18:54 PM
With all the modulations in gospel, wouldn't it make sense to know all those "other" keys as well.  I'm just sayin...   ;D
I've noticed that a lot of Gospel musicians will skip keys so that they can avoid playing in something like C or G etc. I also noticed in some songs that modulate and go into certain keys, that the musician will play a lot simpler in certain keys, and more advanced in other keys. Listen to "The Presence of the Lord is here" by Byron cage and let me know if you hear it too.


"I need you to sruvive"is the perfect example of songs I dislike.....it goes up by whole steps instead of half steps...just made D natural and E natural feel all bad....


My point exactly lol

Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 22, 2009, 05:39:50 PM
I've noticed that a lot of Gospel musicians will skip keys so that they can avoid playing in something like C or G etc. I also noticed in some songs that modulate and go into certain keys, that the musician will play a lot simpler in certain keys, and more advanced in other keys. Listen to "The Presence of the Lord is here" by Byron cage and let me know if you hear it too.





thought i was the only one who noticed this its sad to cuz they get paid big money too :'( :)
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Metronome on April 22, 2009, 05:42:16 PM
thought i was the only one who noticed this its sad to cuz they get paid big money too :'( :)
WORD.......yo if you wanna hear boys kill in natural keys you GOTTA listen to all of Isreal's stuff....
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 22, 2009, 06:04:16 PM
"I need you to sruvive"is the perfect example of songs I dislike.....it goes up by whole steps instead of half steps....
We do it in half step modulations.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 22, 2009, 06:08:22 PM
WORD.......yo if you wanna hear boys kill in natural keys you GOTTA listen to all of Isreal's stuff....

Thats why I hate playing with guitar players
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 22, 2009, 06:12:13 PM
WORD.......yo if you wanna hear boys kill in natural keys you GOTTA listen to all of Isreal's stuff....
yo son im hooked on isreal man i got his old dvd another level the whole concert was pretty much in E lol
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 22, 2009, 06:14:47 PM
Thats why I hate playing with guitar players
gigging with guitar players can be cool.  Oh wait, I don't gig anymore.  You don't even have to know the song and they'll call out the chords to you.  ;D
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 22, 2009, 06:24:21 PM
gigging with guitar players can be cool.  Oh wait, I don't gig anymore.  You don't even have to know the song and they'll call out the chords to you.  ;D

:D they sure do know their chords
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Metronome on April 22, 2009, 08:44:55 PM
yo son im hooked on isreal man i got his old dvd another level the whole concert was pretty much in E lol

AMEN doc......Aaron Lindsay is a beast....

Thats why I hate playing with guitar players

Whats wrong wit guitar players??
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 22, 2009, 08:48:15 PM


Whats wrong wit guitar players??

They always wanna play in E, A, D etc
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Metronome on April 22, 2009, 08:57:17 PM
Whats wrong wit E, A and D????
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 22, 2009, 08:59:35 PM
Whats wrong wit E, A and D????



Lol check pages 1, 2 and 3.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 22, 2009, 10:05:03 PM
Whats wrong wit E, A and D????
Word whats wrong with E A and D actually these are some of my top favorite keys just dont get to play in them in the gospel scene
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 22, 2009, 10:10:18 PM
They always wanna play in E, A, D etc
they play in those keys alot because there's not many sharps and they have the open strings
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 22, 2009, 10:21:47 PM
Word whats wrong with E A and D actually these are some of my top favorite keys just dont get to play in them in the gospel scene

They are just less fun to play in. imo

You also cant slur the notes like you can in the flat keys.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 22, 2009, 10:22:37 PM
they play in those keys alot because there's not many sharps and they have the open strings

Yeah, they like that 'drone'
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Metronome on April 22, 2009, 10:22:37 PM
Word whats wrong with E A and D actually these are some of my top favorite keys just dont get to play in them in the gospel scene

Yo i can think of sweet songs in each key off the dome

E- Isreal......any p&w............

A- Oh my soul loves jesus (Kurt Carr)

D- Some song we sing at church about "whisper his name" thats dope
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 22, 2009, 10:32:32 PM
Yo i can think of sweet songs in each key off the dome

E- Isreal......any p&w............

A- Oh my soul loves jesus (Kurt Carr)

D- Some song we sing at church about "whisper his name" thats dope

My church takes any song and puts it in one of those keys. Since I've been there we've only done Ab Db Eb Gb a handful of times. i guess it has made me better in every key though.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 23, 2009, 01:28:23 AM
They are just less fun to play in. imo

You also cant slur the notes like you can in the flat keys.
Nonsense.  :D
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 23, 2009, 01:43:15 AM
Nonsense.&nbsp; :D


(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii314/Jlaws318/confused-smiley-17432.gif)
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 23, 2009, 02:40:00 AM
([url]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii314/Jlaws318/confused-smiley-17432.gif[/url])


No reason why you can't slur notes in any key.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 23, 2009, 07:38:04 AM
No reason why you can't slur notes in any key.

It just feels different.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on April 23, 2009, 07:40:46 AM
No reason why you can't slur notes in any key.

EXACTLY!!!  You just have to change ur technique in some keys.  It is possible to slur up, but u gotta practice it.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 23, 2009, 07:42:51 AM
EXACTLY!!!  You just have to change ur technique in some keys.  It is possible to slur up, but u gotta practice it.

I guess thats it, I like the technique you have to use in certain keys.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 23, 2009, 10:43:18 AM
I guess thats it, I like the technique you have to use in certain keys.
Different keys can have a different feel but that's not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Salvador on April 23, 2009, 12:24:27 PM
(Guitar players) always wanna play in E, A, D etc
This is kinda funny because guitar players like those keys because they can do things in those keys that they can't in others.

Later down the thread you say you don't like those keys because you can't do things in those that you can in others.

I posted in another thread that very little on the piano can't be transposed to other keys. If we have the same idea of "slur" on the piano I actually think it's easier in E,A,D than in say Eb, Ab, or Db. Just because the latter keys I'm not as familiar with.

But on the guitar there are things you literally can't play in other keys. You can use alternate tunings and capos but that can only take you so far.

I'm not attacking you in any way. I'm just pointing this out because I see this all the time with piano players.  ;)
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 23, 2009, 12:39:26 PM
This is kinda funny because guitar players like those keys because they can do things in those keys that they can't in others.

Later down the thread you say you don't like those keys because you can't do things in those that you can in others.

I posted in another thread that very little on the piano can't be transposed to other keys. If we have the same idea of "slur" on the piano I actually think it's easier in E,A,D than in say Eb, Ab, or Db. Just because the latter keys I'm not as familiar with.

But on the guitar there are things you literally can't play in other keys. You can use alternate tunings and capos but that can only take you so far.

I'm not attacking you in any way. I'm just pointing this out because I see this all the time with piano players.  ;)

When it comes to slurring the notes, E and A are fine, but C, G, F are not as easy for me because they only have one or none black key. Just a personal preference.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 23, 2009, 12:55:48 PM
When it comes to slurring the notes, E and A are fine, but C, G, F are not as easy for me because they only have one or none black key. Just a personal preference.
Hmmmmm, that's the problem.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 23, 2009, 01:19:00 PM
I agree with u13 it is a personal perf. But to me is easy to slur in the white keys but sometimes certain riffs can't get the same effect if done in certain keys because of the shape of the scale
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 23, 2009, 03:38:12 PM
Umm...what does it mean to "slur"  ?/?
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: SisterCM on April 23, 2009, 04:37:41 PM
Umm...what does it mean to "slur"  ?/?

play legato or smoothly connected
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: under13 on April 23, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
When is someone gonna change the title of this thread? What is a TANpose? Grammar Wizard...Where are you???
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: organman88 on April 23, 2009, 04:53:45 PM
Umm...what does it mean to "slur"  ?/?
say you're in Ab and the melody goes from c to Eb and you wanna slur c you would hit one or two notes below it really fast but it has to be a sliding effect its kinda  hard to explain you have to see it and hear it to really understand and it takes sum practice to master evem though its fairly easy
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 24, 2009, 10:27:49 AM
say you're in Ab and the melody goes from c to Eb and you wanna slur c you would hit one or two notes below it really fast but it has to be a sliding effect its kinda  hard to explain you have to see it and hear it to really understand and it takes sum practice to master evem though its fairly easy
Is that what U13 was talking about?  If so, that shouldn't be that difficult to do in "white" keys.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: Change2Light on April 24, 2009, 01:42:02 PM
say you're in Ab and the melody goes from c to Eb and you wanna slur c you would hit one or two notes below it really fast but it has to be a sliding effect its kinda  hard to explain you have to see it and hear it to really understand and it takes sum practice to master evem though its fairly easy


I do that alot when them old time preachers, or mothers get up their and sing a song they just made up right before the walk up their. To tell you the truth that actually work though ;) :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: T-Block on April 24, 2009, 05:10:14 PM
Slurring is easy in any key.  I think U14 was talking about slides, not slurs.  Slides are harder to pull of when sliding to certain notes.  For example sliding from the note A up to the note Bb is a heck of a lot harder than sliding from Bb down to A mainly cuz u gotta use 2 fingers to pull it off.  The latter example u can use 1 finger to get the job done.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: floaded27 on April 27, 2009, 01:44:15 PM
wow. you keyboard guys sure are hard on your fellow players.

a couple of points. the key of C (on paper) is simple because there are no sharps and flats and is usually the easiest key when teaching isolated music theory, sheet music, OR teaching on keyboard or organ. It is NOT necessarily the easiest key in every instrument, therefore it is not the first key learned, and thus for example a person playing a Bb sax, may view Bb as someone else may view C. keyword: MAY.

also a person doesnt have to learn theory in terms of C (everybody doesnt get confused so easily) and they learn every key on the keyboard as an isolated key. C#/Db is C#/Db; its own key, not "find C, then go up one". so if I had to learn in C# first it is its own thing, i MAY not have to reference C at all. I personally never do (i use the numbers to label my chord progressions). Its kind of like do you think of the number 2 as "2" or as "1+1"? Now later on you learned that "1+1=2" and the whole mathematical way the numbers interacted, but when you learned 1 through 10 you learned it as 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10. same thing for the notes.

Guitar/bass is not keyboard, keyboard is not guitar/bass. there are literally some things you CANNOT do in every key, not because its harder and you dont wanna learn/practice, but because you actually cannot do, mainly things using/depending on the open strings. Once in another key, the open strings cannot be used in that way (no longer the same notes relative to the key), making some chord voicings, tricks, effects unavailable. thats just the way the instrument is. if thats a huge part of your style, then thats understandable why they prefer particular keys as opposed to others, even though that is kind of limiting.

lets face it, everybody is not going to be able to play every song in every key. not everyone has that kind of time. i had to play keys for p&w one sunday because the organist didnt show none of the rehearsals, and i was up till 1 or 2am sunday morning getting parts of the song down that i didnt quite have right. so we sang the song sunday morning. no we didnt modulate. did i know the song in all 12 keys? nope. did i minister any less effectively? nope. Did anyone even CARE? nope. was i any less of a musician? nope. but i did go home later and work on it in other keys. yes thats a goal, but there's a little thing called progress. ordinary people grow in steps.

gospel has definitely limited itself to a few keys, thats why many musicians are in the box they're in. when i create songs, my main key is Bb, only because thats the key i naturally sing in (or my attempt at singing) so i can have a reference point. but my second song was in E, my third song was in B, i even had a song in Bbminor. The last song i just came up with was in Bb Dorian (how bout that!)

just an observation

Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 27, 2009, 01:52:16 PM
wow. you keyboard guys sure are hard on your fellow players.


Ain't they, though.  :-\ :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: momuzik on April 27, 2009, 02:04:40 PM
wow. you keyboard guys sure are hard on your fellow players...

I know...y'all be trippin'; especially when someone says the "T" word. ;D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 27, 2009, 02:10:58 PM
I know...y'all be trippin'; especially when someone says the "T" word. ;D
I know thats right.  Everyone doesn't have the same level of musical integrity but it's funny to me that people get upset when someone transposes.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: floaded27 on April 27, 2009, 02:38:47 PM
I know thats right.  Everyone doesn't have the same level of musical integrity but it's funny to me that people get upset when someone transposes.

i guess somebody heard the old church mother that used to play keys say "transpose is of the devil!"

either that or someone hit the transpose key by accident and got snatched up on the prayer line.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 27, 2009, 03:38:38 PM
I was at a church on Friday and got up to play for our choir.  The keyboardist left his board, then ran back before i started playing to take the transpose off. 

I was SHOCKED because I happen to know that this guy is beastly in ALL keys.  He says one of the low Bb's doesn't work, so he transposes when he has to play in certain keys.  He's wasn't lying.  One of the Bb's doesn't work.



What would've happened if he hadn't remembered to take the transpose off?  A few things are possible?

A) The choir would sing the song in the new key, and struggled slightly.

B) The choir would sing the song and sound a mess because it's out of most of their ranges.

C) I would've noticed by ear that the board is transposed and asked the keyboardist to come change it.

D) I would've noticed by ear that the board is transposed and manually found the right key (unlikely).


CLEARLY the broken key on the board is not the keyboard players fault.  Again, I happen to know for a fact that this brotha can kill in every key and his ear is solid.  But it's just a testament to the perils of the dreaded transpose.  It cripples.  It halts growth.  It embarasses.

There are cats who are beasts in Ab/Eb/Db/F#, but practically BEGINNERS in every other key.  I want those who are just starting out to avoid that fate.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: under13 on April 27, 2009, 03:46:40 PM


What would've happened if he hadn't remembered to take the transpose off? 

Happened to me :D

OK, so today my church goes to fellowship with another church. They have PnW, Our Choir gets up, our pastor is on the keyboard, I'm on the organ. He starts the song, It sounds kinda off..... I know we did it this morning in C, now he's doing it in F. even though I've never done it in that key, I still played it fine. Then we do the next song which we rehearsed in E, but he does it in A, by that time I've figured out that the previous player must have had it transposed + 5. And that song, was more uptempo and I couldnt really play it too well in A, so I struggled though it.

So now I think I'm changing my position on Transposers. They may be musicians, but they are definatley incompetent, and they should at least have the courtesy to untranspose when they leave the instrument.


I really dont know how a musicians can use transpose. I got a new (to me) keyboard on saturday, and I soon as I played it, I knew it was transposed +1, and it took like 15 minutes to turn it off :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: TheUpperRoom on April 27, 2009, 04:56:37 PM


I really dont know how a musicians can use transpose. I got a new (to me) keyboard on saturday, and I soon as I played it, I knew it was transposed +1, and it took like 15 minutes to turn it off :D


Its simple really. Just press a few buttons unitl you find the transpose option and there you have it. lol. But seriously though, I used to use the transpose option all the time when i first started playing becasue i only knew how to play in C and Db. I eventually learned how to play in every key. Now...theres another guy at my church who plays by ear. And he's been playing some of the songs when i have to direct. He has time to learn to learn the other keys but just prefers to use the transpose key. I told him that everywhere he went to play wasnt going to have a transpose option. And sure enough we went to a church and all they had was an organ. I told him to start playing and he did but it wasnt in the key that we sing it. I tried to tell him that he needed to learn the other 11 keys but he says he's going to just get a board with the transpose option on it and take it when he goes off. I told him if he would just learn the song in there oringinal key without transposing that would helping learn to play in more keys. He still wont listen.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: momuzik on April 27, 2009, 05:10:15 PM
...I told him if he would just learn the song in there oringinal key without transposing that would helping learn to play in more keys...

Even if he didn't learn one song in every key but at least learn songs in there original keys -  that's one way (a slower way) to learn more keys.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: jonesl78 on April 27, 2009, 06:38:37 PM
I know thats right.  Everyone doesn't have the same level of musical integrity but it's funny to me that people get upset when someone transposes.

 ;D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: jjegede04 on April 28, 2009, 03:59:00 PM
 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Thanks for all you advice but one more question,

How did you guys get to know that transposing is wrong,
Did your piano teacher ay it was wrong,
Did you hear it from other musicians
Or did you just know

I am asking this besause i new that people say to lean in all keys, but i did not for one moment think that it was wrong in any way (untill i met this site), i just pressed the button and Wow! i found a new tool so i can learn things quicker. and i am saying this honestly (there is by no way any wrong feeling in my bones when i transpose, to me it is just a musical tool)

Secondly, do people that are against transposing, mainly piano player or keyboard players becaus i dont consider myself someone that is a piano player because i only play in 1 keys but i will not hesitate to say that i am a keyboard player.

Also, do you think that  you cannot play a piano because you cannot modulate

And i also think that many musicians are under pressure to show that they are not transposers, and when they see another musician they must show that they can play in adifferent key. i'm getting the vibes that pople are scred about something and emidiately go on defence when the T word is used.











 This should start something L.O.L 
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: under13 on April 28, 2009, 04:25:50 PM
Its simple really. Just press a few buttons unitl you find the transpose option and there you have it. lol.

But seriously though, I used to use the transpose option all the time when i first started playing becasue i only knew how to play in C and Db. I eventually learned how to play in every key.
I just reset the board to factory settings.

When I was comin up, I didnt even know the was a such thing as transpose. I would just sit at the board and play along with the songs on the radio; do that long enough and you will end up playing in every key


Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: T-Block on April 28, 2009, 07:04:37 PM
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Thanks for all you advice but one more question,

How did you guys get to know that transposing is wrong,
Did your piano teacher ay it was wrong,
Did you hear it from other musicians
Or did you just know

Transposing in itself isn't technically wrong, it's just unprofessional, taking the easy way out.  It will criple you in the long run.  What happens when u have to play a board w/out transpose and they sing in a key u don't know?

Transposing is an insult to every other musician and every other instrument player who had to work hard to learn every key, but u getting the same result by just hitting a stinking button.  You are faking, not being real. I could call that lying, and u know what the Bible says about liars, but I won't go that far.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Fenix on April 28, 2009, 09:21:42 PM
Transposing in itself isn't technically wrong, it's just unprofessional, taking the easy way out.  It will criple you in the long run.  What happens when u have to play a board w/out transpose and they sing in a key u don't know?

Transposing is an insult to every other musician and every other instrument player who had to work hard to learn every key, but u getting the same result by just hitting a stinking button.  You are faking, not being real. I could call that lying, and u know what the Bible says about liars, but I won't go that far.

Hmm...i highly suspect you do not like transposing.

 ;D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Blackwiz87 on April 28, 2009, 09:27:37 PM

Transposing is an insult to every other musician and every other instrument player who had to work hard to learn every key, but u getting the same result by just hitting a stinking button.  You are faking, not being real. I could call that lying, and u know what the Bible says about liars, but I won't go that far.

You don't like transposing. Let's just keep it like that. All this "its an insult"...you're going over board. Chill. Some musicians transpose for whatever reason and some don't...you choose not to...and that's fine. Others choose too..and thats fine. What others choose to do has nothing to do with musicians who choose not to.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: berbie on April 28, 2009, 10:00:36 PM
Fenix, your ability to get the hidden meaning from vague comments is amazing.  How on earth could you tell that T-Block didn't like the idea of transposing?

berbie
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Metronome on April 29, 2009, 07:58:25 AM
You don't like transposing. Let's just keep it like that. All this "its an insult"...you're going over board. Chill. Some musicians transpose for whatever reason and some don't...you choose not to...and that's fine. Others choose too..and thats fine. What others choose to do has nothing to do with musicians who choose not to.

It really is an insult....when a cat rolls in the service they are insulting music.....by not taking the time to learn there craft they are not getting the full essence of what can be played...THEN they are insulting other musicians......"I can play what you can play without having to do what you did, look at me!!!!!"....That in essence is what cats are saying when they transpose..

ITS NOT an excuse for beginners either...if that was the case then nobody on the face of the earth would have learned how to play until a transpose button came out...

I mean if people wanna cripple themselves by transposing then thats their business....but dont get mad when you hit that bump in the road and have nowhere to go....
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 29, 2009, 08:15:31 AM
It really is an insult....when a cat rolls in the service they are insulting music.....by not taking the time to learn there craft they are not getting the full essence of what can be played...THEN they are insulting other musicians......"I can play what you can play without having to do what you did, look at me!!!!!"....That in essence is what cats are saying when they transpose..

ITS NOT an excuse for beginners either...if that was the case then nobody on the face of the earth would have learned how to play until a transpose button came out...

I mean if people wanna cripple themselves by transposing then thats their business....but dont get mad when you hit that bump in the road and have nowhere to go....

I think it's only an insult for those who REFUSE to learn in all keys.

Using it to get by, temporarily, isn't a big deal, IMHO.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: organman88 on April 29, 2009, 08:27:19 AM
I think it's only an insult for those who REFUSE to learn in all keys.

Using it to get by, temporarily, isn't a big deal, IMHO.
using to get by 1 time turns into 2 times turns into 3 times and then you get used to it and feel you dont have to learn because you got help
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Fenix on April 29, 2009, 08:27:56 AM
Fenix, your ability to get the hidden meaning from vague comments is amazing.  How on earth could you tell that T-Block didn't like the idea of transposing?

berbie

LOL!!!!  :D :D :D

You are so sarcastic.  ;D ;D :D :D :D :P
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Fenix on April 29, 2009, 08:29:25 AM
using to get by 1 time turns into 2 times turns into 3 times and then you get used to it and feel you dont have to learn because you got help

That is what happens. I am so very happy i didn't know about the transpose button when i was learning.

The people i can forgive for transposing are non-pianists like my bassist who transposes in the event that there is no one to play keys.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: floaded27 on April 29, 2009, 11:23:38 AM
using to get by 1 time turns into 2 times turns into 3 times and then you get used to it and feel you dont have to learn because you got help

thats people with no discipline. if everytime u do something once it automatically becomes habit, then "transpose" is the least of your worries in life. seriously. what if you went to a church and they didnt have a keyboard and u had to play the organ just to get by, now you always gotta play organ, because you cant stop yourself from doing so, because you did it once out of necessity. that sounds so silly, but its the exact same situation.

i started really practicing keys to develop my foundation for the bass. and i had a song i wrote in E and was playing it and the person singing it seemed to be straining and i said was it too high? so i said if i dropped it to another key u'd probably be more comfortable. I went down to Db to see if it was ok. as a beginner i couldnt quickly pick up the song in a different key, especially since i was trying to test if the key was fine for her (i may have had to switch to yet another key) and then learn it in that key later on. Pressed for time, i transposed into Db and played the song and it was fine. so that day when i went home i started learning the song in Db. But...according to some of you guys, i should have been incapable of self control, pressing the transpose key like a rabid animal. Instead of gradually getting better in different keys (not quickly because the majority of my practice time is dedicated to bass), i should be a one key wonder stuck in the "box of transposition".

i study the use, sound, composition of a chord type to get understanding. i move patterns into other keys to get a better sense of how they relate. I explore different keys by playing different patters in keys that I am least familiar with in order to get balance. This is called discipline. I have it, even though i once "sinned" by transposing. There are people who want to put in the work by developing foundation and not trying to be a virtuoso in 3 days. Its a shame that many of you assume that nobody has any discipline. Its actually a relief that the original poster didnt quit playing because he committed the cardinal sin of using the transpose button and feel less than a musician. (dont worry o.p., ur not going to hell for pressing that button.)

But i guess many here dont have discipline themselves if they have to break the button, be ignorant to where it is, etc so they dont fall into the temptation of being dependent on it. thats lack of discipline.

Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Metronome on April 29, 2009, 11:34:36 AM
Ok....This is what im saying..personally ive never seen anybody who transposes break that habit.....EVERYBODY I know who tries that whole "Imma use it till I learn all my keys" never really learns all of their keys...

And I will NEVER EVER agree with the statement that someone needs to transpose.....meaning that there is no other choice....thats whack...There are 11 other choices on the keyboard.....

Why play at all if you dont have your instrument at a decent level?? Where I'm from you dont play out until you have proven to the people that you can play in all your keys....thats like a drummer gettin called to play a service when all he knows how to use is kick and snare...no toms, cymbals, nothin...
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 29, 2009, 12:04:59 PM
You don't like transposing. Let's just keep it like that. All this "its an insult"...you're going over board. Chill. Some musicians transpose for whatever reason and some don't...you choose not to...and that's fine. Others choose too..and thats fine. What others choose to do has nothing to do with musicians who choose not to.

T-Block is right.

If you asked a concert pianist if they can play in every key, they'd look at you like you have 3 heads.

Same if you ask a jazz musician if they play in every key.

How about you ask a violinist, sax player, etc, etc.

No?  Right.

So to every REAL musician who went through, and is going through the grind of becoming proficient at their instrument of choice, it's an insult. 

"So I've busted my behind, practiced even when I didn't feel like it, all in the interest of becoming a good musician, and you're playing in ONE KEY and have everyone thinking you're a Beast?!?!?!"

It's the easy way out.

I believe that, since he's been thrown into this role as keyboard player, if someone gets up to sing in E and he can't play ANYTHING in E (assuming he doesn't even know the E Major Scale, in which case he CAN'T play ANY song in E.), transpose.  It would be better for the ministry if you transpose rather than sit their and decide "I'm just not gonna play".  That's pride.  But as soon as you can play a simple 1-4-5 in E, cut out the transpose button.  Tough it.  Take the embarassment.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 29, 2009, 12:10:51 PM
using to get by 1 time turns into 2 times turns into 3 times and then you get used to it and feel you dont have to learn because you got help

Not for the serious musician. How many times can one say this?  ::)
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 29, 2009, 12:13:46 PM
Ok....This is what im saying..personally ive never seen anybody who transposes break that habit.....EVERYBODY I know who tries that whole "Imma use it till I learn all my keys" never really learns all of their keys...

And I will NEVER EVER agree with the statement that someone needs to transpose.....meaning that there is no other choice....thats whack...There are 11 other choices on the keyboard.....

Why play at all if you dont have your instrument at a decent level?? Where I'm from you dont play out until you have proven to the people that you can play in all your keys....thats like a drummer gettin called to play a service when all he knows how to use is kick and snare...no toms, cymbals, nothin...

I'mma need everyone to stop actin' like there place of residence is the ONLY place on the planet.  :D :-\ :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Fenix on April 29, 2009, 12:19:30 PM
Ok....This is what im saying..personally ive never seen anybody who transposes break that habit.....EVERYBODY I know who tries that whole "Imma use it till I learn all my keys" never really learns all of their keys...



Yes, i agree that it is a very difficult habit to break. It took a while for the other keyboardist in my church to stop using the transpose button.

The problem i find is that too many people are being pushed out to play before they are really ready. There is a lot of pressure for some folks to just...play something. Churches just want to have the sound of an instrument, regardless matter the skill level of the musician.

Plus lets be real. More often than not, a lot of church musicians are so happy they made it through the service that they don't bother practicing at home. :)
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Metronome on April 29, 2009, 12:23:38 PM
I'mma need everyone to stop actin' like there place of residence is the ONLY place on the planet.  :D :-\ :D

True lol, VERY true (because my hometown is 145,000 strong lol)but my question is this......

EX: You have a strong desire to play, but ou can only play in Ab.  The church asks you to play for th prasie team or youth choir. They already have a good musician who you are going to be playing with.  Do you decline knowing that you need more time in the shed, or do you say "hecks yeah man I'm down" and go transpose??

The thing that bothers me most about transposing is that it gives dudes a reason NOT to say no...I mean as long as you aren't rude and stuff NO is an accaeptbale answer lol......so if somebody asks you to play and you know you arent capable, cant you just say no??????
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: floaded27 on April 29, 2009, 12:29:39 PM
Why play at all if you dont have your instrument at a decent level?? Where I'm from you dont play out until you have proven to the people that you can play in all your keys....thats like a drummer gettin called to play a service when all he knows how to use is kick and snare...no toms, cymbals, nothin...

and what im saying is the most important person that i know did learn. ME. not what i heard, not what i read, but what i experienced.

thats where u from. but to say "why play at all?" so when do u do anything outside of your house? how do you get better? and thats a big reason why nobody within the church gets developed to play. u gotta be nice or otherwise we'll pay someone else to come in. just this past sunday our drummer wasnt there so we had a little kid about 8 or 9 who is trying to learn play. all he had was the kick and the snare and i worked with him to get the timing. what we supposed to say "come back when ur good enough?" yeah, thats often the best way to kill somebody spirit. or will you say "if they really wanted to play they wouldnt let that stop them" because if u can assume people have that determination, why cant you assume that people will have the discipline to not let 1 button cripple their growth?

when i played keys for p&w we did fine. i didnt have to prove i could play in every key. and i couldnt. we didnt modulate, but every song wasnt in the same key, it was in the key of the original recording and a few others we changed. or we couldve paid someone who aint saved worth a lick but could play in all keys. different situations call for different measures and just because you never find yourself in a situation, doesnt give u the right to judge someone else in the situation.

but the issue isnt about transposing. I know it will later on cripple your growth. some people are required to play even when their skill level isnt up to snuff. thats like saying you cant preach until you memorize every verse in the bible. sometimes God give you a word, and if you may always have to reference Psalms, in the process you'll grow. If you're only good in Eb and you're forced into the position of playing and ur required to play in something else, you dont have time to say "Hold everything! Let me learn to play in this other key!" u do what you have to. And thats not playing out, because yeah u shouldnt be playing out without being up to a decent level, but most people have these experiences at their home church. Every church doesnt have a basket of musicians to just pick one. Some churches just got one, and it may not even be keys.

the ideal thing would to suggest to people not to stunt their own growth, and warn them and encourage them. y'all just **** them all to hell. no compassion or help for the fellow musician. if y'all do all this about a transpose key, i wonder how y'all actually treat people who are looking for Christ but may not have everything right. something to think about.

Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 29, 2009, 12:36:53 PM
True lol, VERY true (because my hometown is 145,000 strong lol)but my question is this......

EX: You have a strong desire to play, but ou can only play in Ab.  The church asks you to play for th prasie team or youth choir. They already have a good musician who you are going to be playing with.  Do you decline knowing that you need more time in the shed, or do you say "hecks yeah man I'm down" and go transpose??

The thing that bothers me most about transposing is that it gives dudes a reason NOT to say no...I mean as long as you aren't rude and stuff NO is an accaeptbale answer lol......so if somebody asks you to play and you know you arent capable, cant you just say no??????

I'm pretty sure F27 has said what I'm going to say, but I'm just not going to read all of that.

@ F27 this is a messageboard not a audition for the Writers Workshop of America, dude.  :D

On topic: I'm down, Metro. I ask the other dude if he can teach me. When something occurs on the fly during a service, I'd probably lay back and ask, later on, what happened and learn what I could.

They say experience is the best teacher.


I also say all of this because I'm IN the situation, right now, man. I'm the ONLY cat on ANY instrument (right now, I only play during prayer and altar call and, sometimes, IF I know the song, I'll play a bit after P&W).

To say to someone like me that I need to jump off the keys until I get better is more of an insult, IMO, than a cat trying to transpose WHILE they're learning.

BTJM.  :-\
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 29, 2009, 12:45:09 PM
the ideal thing would to suggest to people not to stunt their own growth, and warn them and encourage them. y'all just **** them all to hell. no compassion or help for the fellow musician. if y'all do all this about a transpose key, i wonder how y'all actually treat people who are looking for Christ but may not have everything right. something to think about.

Psychobabble.  Nobody threw this young man under the bus.  We're encouraging him to learn every key.  We're trying our best to convey that the Transpose is not the answer.

3 years from now when he's killin', he'll thank us.



Sjon, I'll tell you the same thing I told the OP:

Transpose if you must.  What we do is ministry, and if you know you literally CAN NOT play in a certain key, deciding not to transpose would be proud and would not minister.  I have no doubt you won't become addicted to the transpose. 

If you did T-Block would hunt you down like your last name was "Knowles".  :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: floaded27 on April 29, 2009, 12:48:29 PM
my bad. its just that its seems people saying cliche stuff followed by 10 posts of people sayin yeah,true,smiley faces, and people still dont get it. i'll be quiet. im sure the o.p. isnt in need of encouragement anymore.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: floaded27 on April 29, 2009, 12:59:30 PM
Psychobabble.  Nobody threw this young man under the bus.  We're encouraging him to learn every key.  We're trying our best to convey that the Transpose is not the answer.

3 years from now when he's killin', he'll thank us.

not psychobabble. he was basically told if he could only play in one key he shouldnt be in that position to have to play anyway. maybe i took it the wrong way, but it was like saying, "go sit down somewhere until u get better" like sjon stated.

To say to someone like me that I need to jump off the keys until I get better is more of an insult, IMO, than a cat trying to transpose WHILE they're learning.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 29, 2009, 01:12:35 PM
not psychobabble. he was basically told if he could only play in one key he shouldnt be in that position to have to play anyway. maybe i took it the wrong way, but it was like saying, "go sit down somewhere until u get better" like sjon stated.


I think general tone of the thread was more speaking against transposing...not the OP.

If that statement about not playing until he gets better is the statement you were responding to, then I agree with you.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: floaded27 on April 29, 2009, 01:20:42 PM
I think general tone of the thread was more speaking against transposing...not the OP.

If that statement about not playing until he gets better is the statement you were responding to, then I agree with you.

thanks. my bad if i read too much into it though. i apologize on that note.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: T-Block on April 29, 2009, 01:21:14 PM
Dang, look what I done started. ;D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 29, 2009, 01:36:27 PM
thanks. my bad if i read too much into it though. i apologize on that note.

All's well.   ;D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 29, 2009, 01:48:49 PM
Psychobabble.  Nobody threw this young man under the bus.  We're encouraging him to learn every key.  We're trying our best to convey that the Transpose is not the answer.

3 years from now when he's killin', he'll thank us.



Sjon, I'll tell you the same thing I told the OP:

Transpose if you must.  What we do is ministry, and if you know you literally CAN NOT play in a certain key, deciding not to transpose would be proud and would not minister.  I have no doubt you won't become addicted to the transpose. 

If you did T-Block would hunt you down like your last name was "Knowles".  :D

a. Last sentence---> FUNNY!!  :D

b. Don't get it twisted. I don't use the transpose button. I play what I can when I do play. I was just saying that no one should be lambasted if they DO use the 'dreaded button' (say it with me) tem-por-arily while they're learning to play in every key.  ;)
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Incognegro on April 29, 2009, 02:57:19 PM
a. Last sentence---> FUNNY!!  :D

b. Don't get it twisted. I don't use the transpose button. I play what I can when I do play. I was just saying that no one should be lambasted if they DO use the 'dreaded button' (say it with me) tem-por-arily while they're learning to play in every key.  ;)


I love how you swiftly avoided that Scarlet Letter and separated yourself from all transposers (or 'Posers' for short).   :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: organman88 on April 29, 2009, 04:59:22 PM
thats people with no discipline. if everytime u do something once it automatically becomes habit, then "transpose" is the least of your worries in life. seriously. what if you went to a church and they didnt have a keyboard and u had to play the organ just to get by, now you always gotta play organ, because you cant stop yourself from doing so, because you did it once out of necessity. that sounds so silly, but its the exact same situation.i started really practicing keys to develop my foundation for the bass. and i had a song i wrote in E and was playing it and the person singing it seemed to be straining and i said was it too high? so i said if i dropped it to another key u'd probably be more comfortable. I went down to Db to see if it was ok. as a beginner i couldnt quickly pick up the song in a different key, especially since i was trying to test if the key was fine for her (i may have had to switch to yet another key) and then learn it in that key later on. Pressed for time, i transposed into Db and played the song and it was fine. so that day when i went home i started learning the song in Db. But...according to some of you guys, i should have been incapable of self control, pressing the transpose key like a rabid animal. Instead of gradually getting better in different keys (not quickly because the majority of my practice time is dedicated to bass), i should be a one key wonder stuck in the "box of transposition".i study the use, sound, composition of a chord type to get understanding. i move patterns into other keys to get a better sense of how they relate. I explore different keys by playing different patters in keys that I am least familiar with in order to get balance. This is called discipline. I have it, even though i once "sinned" by transposing. There are people who want to put in the work by developing foundation and not trying to be a virtuoso in 3 days. Its a shame that many of you assume that nobody has any discipline. Its actually a relief that the original poster didnt quit playing because he committed the cardinal sin of using the transpose button and feel less than a musician. (dont worry o.p., ur not going to hell for pressing that button.)

But i guess many here dont have discipline themselves if they have to break the button, be ignorant to where it is, etc so they dont fall into the temptation of being dependent on it. thats lack of discipline.


im saying that transposing is never ok to do anytime to try to save an embarrasement many musicians go through embarrasing moments thats how you learn we just have to learn how to suck it up and learn and move on and secondly many musicians play out before they are ready and settle for less and get scared when theyre put up into an akward position
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: under13 on April 29, 2009, 05:12:49 PM

(or 'Posers' for short).   :D

Lets just call em Trannys for short.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Fenix on April 29, 2009, 05:44:47 PM
This topic will never end.  ::)
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: organman88 on April 29, 2009, 06:11:10 PM
This topic will never end.  ::)
if there wasnt any disagreement this site would be boring :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 29, 2009, 08:15:34 PM
if there wasnt any disagreement this site would be boring :D
I would so LOVE to test that theory.  :-\
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: T-Block on April 30, 2009, 06:35:13 AM
if there wasnt any disagreement this site would be boring :D

I don't think it would be boring, but it would be less eventful, maybe.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: organman88 on April 30, 2009, 07:16:48 AM
I don't think it would be boring, but it would be less eventful, maybe.
i meant to say that just used the wrong choice of words
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: sjonathan02 on April 30, 2009, 07:18:34 AM
i meant to say that just used the wrong choice of words

I'd STILL love to test that theory.  :-\
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: organman88 on April 30, 2009, 07:39:03 AM
I'd STILL love to test that theory.  :-\
lets try it
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: T-Block on April 30, 2009, 08:01:43 AM
lets try it

Not.Gonna.Happen.  ;)  :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: organman88 on April 30, 2009, 08:40:02 AM
Not.Gonna.Happen.  ;)  :D
yea I know
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: jjegede04 on April 30, 2009, 10:52:12 AM

 :-\ :-\ :-[
I Belive the points against are good enough,so.........

I Will try my best to play in all keys,

thanks for the harshness t-block, it realy got me thinking  :P

I will update you guys on how its going   
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 30, 2009, 12:17:57 PM
Hmm...i highly suspect you do not like transposing.

 ;D
Honestly, I don't get insulted when I know musicians transpose.  It's a crutch but it's their crutch.  Eventually it will catch up with them so I let it be.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: themidiroom on April 30, 2009, 12:21:46 PM
and what im saying is the most important person that i know did learn. ME. not what i heard, not what i read, but what i experienced.
Me too bruh.  It's about having some integrity and wanting to be better.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: T-Block on April 30, 2009, 12:49:52 PM
thanks for the harshness t-block, it realy got me thinking  :P

No pain, no gain my brotha. ;)
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Donald594 on May 03, 2009, 06:39:21 AM
They had a good reason for the time being. He should not keep doing it though, I used the be a transpose freak, until I turned 12, then my grandma got a keyboard with no transpose function, and told me to learn every key, and that has made all the difference.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: berbie on May 03, 2009, 11:51:45 PM
Just some friendly kidding, Fenix. It is always good to see you.

berbie
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: Fenix on May 04, 2009, 07:28:47 AM
Just some friendly kidding, Fenix. It is always good to see you.

berbie

I know you were kidding. It was very funny. :)
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: jonesl78 on May 06, 2009, 06:46:34 AM
Just a thought and probably a little off topic: If one wishes to use music as a means to support their financial well-being they will, more often than not, have to be a well rounded MUSICIAN. Not just a pianist. Being a well-rounded musician means that you should be able to read music, write charts, play multiple instruments and/or understand their roles, be a leader, submit to authority, teach music( vocals and your respective instrument), and yes, play in all 12 keys. This is just my point of view that is based on my observation of my peers. Most of my peers that support themselves financially from their musical talents are able to do all of the above. I only know of one guy, a bassist who supports himself by exclusively playing the bass. However, he does serve as a music director over his church band.
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: berbie on May 06, 2009, 08:01:00 AM
We must remember that the original poster is new at the board and has been given an opportunity to play.  We assume him to have the potential but not the trainng leading to skills that he will eventually have. He needs to use all the tools at his disposal until he can progress to a position of knowledge, skill and ability equal to the position.  Transposing is one of them.  As time passes, he wlll if he is diligent, learn other keys in the order in which he finds them most usable in his ministry.

berbie
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: bigbo on July 29, 2009, 06:56:07 AM
you are playing for god at your church, everyone is supposed to be on the same team, if  you cheat and transpose and the job of magnifing the lord is accomplished god aint going to call a foul on you and point out the fact that you cheated, he going to bless you for doing your best in his name. but for your own personl growth on becoming a true solid musician you do need to practice songs in every key, keep on doing what your doing until you feel comfortable not using the transpose key, god knows your heart but practice and pray. egypt wasnt built in one day it will come with time but if transposing is keeping you proficient in the type of songs thats helping the choir or congregation concentrating on the lord, or letting the holy ghost move on thier hearts instead of wondering why your up there one the keyboard hitting wrong notes taking their mid of of the lord, clashing with their praise, id hit the transpose button every time, its for gods glory not yours, but he will bless you study and show yourself to be approved and he will work it out. be encouraged brother it will come
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: kenlacam on August 01, 2009, 10:08:03 AM
I might mention that I don't use the transpose button at all.  I can't use it because the notes don't sound right.  I have a tendency to start playing chords based on how the chord should sound and I get lost if the board is trasposed.  Since I don't know how the chords will sound, I don't know what to play then.  I would use it some other than that.  I know a musician, though, who sounds VERY good, but can only play well in one key. He is transposing most of the time.  He can even pick up the key that a person is singing in and transpose. It works for him and I can't knock it.

berbie 
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but it sounds like this guy is just LAZY. He has taken the time to sound good in only one key and not bothering to learn the rest of the keys and depending on transpose? That is lazy. What if he was to go to a church that only had an organ and piano, which DON'T have transpose keys? He'd be lost if the church started singing in a key (11 keys, actually, since he only knows one) that he don't know. then he'd be sitting there looking like a fool.
Title: Re: Tanspose again
Post by: T-Block on August 01, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but it sounds like this guy is just LAZY. He has taken the time to sound good in only one key and not bothering to learn the rest of the keys and depending on transpose? That is lazy. What if he was to go to a church that only had an organ and piano, which DON'T have transpose keys? He'd be lost if the church started singing in a key (11 keys, actually, since he only knows one) that he don't know. then he'd be sitting there looking like a fool.

This is one of the main points in why it is not good to transpose. I'm glad u recognize this. :D
Title: Re: Transpose again
Post by: kenlacam on August 01, 2009, 11:31:44 AM
I found out the hard way, when I first started playing in service years ago. Back then I only knew a couple of keys, so outside of trying to bump them up half a step (which was a battle in itself), I either struggled with it (and sounding horrible) or sat there warming the organ bench ;D That was all it took for me to really get down to it and practice in other keys.